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Research shows strong welfare state leads to entrepreneurship

torbee

HR King
Gold Member
This is going to be awkward for some:

FTA (FULL LINK HERE):

Pundits and researchers often note the negative correlation between government spending and entrepreneurship, both internationally, and conclude that growth requires trimming social welfare programs. Jim Manzi of theNational Review, for example, a thoughtful commenter on economic policy, wrote last year that, "we must accept some amount of social dislocation in return for innovation." But correlations can be misleading. A series of more recent studies challenge the view that larger or more activist government necessarily threatens entrepreneurship. In fact, that may get the relationship precisely backwards.


Entrepreneurs are actually more likely than other Americans to receive public benefits, after accounting for income, as Harvard Business School's Gareth Oldshas documented. And in many cases, expanding benefit programs helps spur new business creation.


Take food stamps. Conservatives have long argued that they In a 2014 paper, Olds examined the link between entrepreneurship and food stamps, and found that the expansion of the program in some states in the early 2000s increased the chance that newly eligible households would own an incorporated business by 16 percent. (Incorporated firms are a better proxy for job-creating startups than unincorporated ones.)


Interestingly, most of these new entrepreneurs didn't actually enroll in the food stamp program. It seems that expanding the availability of food stamps increased business formation by making it less risky for entrepreneurs to strike out on their own. Simply knowing that they could fall back on food stamps if their venture failed was enough to make them more likely to take risks.


Food stamps are not an isolated case. In another paper, Olds looked at the creation of the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP), which offers publicly funded health insurance for kids whose families don't qualify for Medicaid. By comparing the rate of entrepreneurship of those who just barely qualified for CHIP to those whose incomes just barely exceeded the cutoff, he was able to estimate the program's impact on new business creation. The rate of incorporated business ownership for those eligible households just below the cutoff was 31 percent greater than for similarly situated families that could not rely on CHIP to care for their children if they needed it.


The same is true of recent immigrants to the United States. Contrary to increased those households' chances of owning an incorporated business by 28 percent.
The mechanism in each case is the same: publicly funded insurance lowers the risk of starting a business, since entrepreneurs needn't fear financial ruin. (This same logic explains why more forgiving bankruptcy laws are associated with more entrepreneurship.)


A 2010 study by RAND found a similar effect with Medicare. American men were more likely to start a business just after turning 65 and qualifying for Medicare than just before. Here again, government can make entrepreneurship more appealing by making it less risky. By this logic, Obamacare doubles as entrepreneurship policy by making it easier for individuals to gain health insurance without relying on an employer.
 
Kinda like in East Germany where people used their own ingenuity to get over that pesky wall.
 
This I think is an often under appreciated benefit of Obamacare. It frees entrepreneurs from the jobs they held simply for the benefits. Now they are free to strike out on their own with comparable healthcare. A safety net is very essential to the American Dream.
 
So what it is saying is when someone else is footing the bill and paying for their stuff they can then start a business??

Really makes sense. When you don't have to pay for your basics you can then do something else. What it doesn't say is how much the ROI is. How much the business bringing in?? How much are they paying in taxes?

I quit my job and let you guys pay my bills. So I open a widget store, how many widgets do I need to sell to reimburse the taxpayer that is paying my bills and make a living??
 
Originally posted by rocketclone:

So what it is saying is when someone else is footing the bill and paying for their stuff they can then start a business??

Really makes sense. When you don't have to pay for your basics you can then do something else. What it doesn't say is how much the ROI is. How much the business bringing in?? How much are they paying in taxes?

I quit my job and let you guys pay my bills. So I open a widget store, how many widgets do I need to sell to reimburse the taxpayer that is paying my bills and make a living??
Sounds like you didn't read the article.

"Interestingly, most of these new
entrepreneurs didn't actually enroll in the food stamp program. It seems
that expanding the availability of food stamps increased business
formation by making it less risky for entrepreneurs to strike out on
their own. Simply knowing that they could fall back on food stamps if
their venture failed was enough to make them more likely to take risks."
 
Originally posted by naturalmwa:
This I think is an often under appreciated benefit of Obamacare. It frees entrepreneurs from the jobs they held simply for the benefits. Now they are free to strike out on their own with comparable healthcare. A safety net is very essential to the American Dream.
I read the article Natural and you are saying the same thing here that I said.

Again, What is the ROI?? I don't see those numbers in there anywhere??
 
Originally posted by rocketclone:
Originally posted by naturalmwa:
This I think is an often under appreciated benefit of Obamacare. It frees entrepreneurs from the jobs they held simply for the benefits. Now they are free to strike out on their own with comparable healthcare. A safety net is very essential to the American Dream.
I read the article Natural and you are saying the same thing here that I said.

Again, What is the ROI?? I don't see those numbers in there anywhere??


It doesn't read to me like the same thing you said. I invite you to research your questions and report back what you find. TiA.
 
Originally posted by naturalmwa:


Originally posted by rocketclone:

Originally posted by naturalmwa:
This I think is an often under appreciated benefit of Obamacare. It frees entrepreneurs from the jobs they held simply for the benefits. Now they are free to strike out on their own with comparable healthcare. A safety net is very essential to the American Dream.
I read the article Natural and you are saying the same thing here that I said.

Again, What is the ROI?? I don't see those numbers in there anywhere??


It doesn't read to me like the same thing you said. I invite you to research your questions and report back what you find. TiA.
You don't address the issue at all. What is the ROI on this??

It is kind of like grants for college. I think that is one of the best programs they have. You give grants and they pay back the grant money through taxes for all those years they are employed.

So I decide to play gigs with my guitar and I make about 400 bucks a week so I am making 1600 per month and the taxpayer is paying for my food, my health insurance and my housing. Not much of an ROI on that is there??

You refuse to address that issue.
 
Originally posted by 22*43*51:
The former Soviet Union would disagree with this research.
That made me laugh. All those communist countries should be BOOMING right now.

Unfortunately it was probably the taxpayer that paid for that study.
 
Originally posted by rocketclone:

You don't address the issue at all. What is the ROI on this??

It is kind of like grants for college. I think that is one of the best programs they have. You give grants and they pay back the grant money through taxes for all those years they are employed.

So I decide to play gigs with my guitar and I make about 400 bucks a week so I am making 1600 per month and the taxpayer is paying for my food, my health insurance and my housing. Not much of an ROI on that is there??

You refuse to address that issue.
You want, no expect me to research your questions rather than you doing the work yourself? I think that beautifully addresses the issue in a most satisfactory way.
 
Originally posted by rocketclone:
Originally posted by naturalmwa:


Originally posted by rocketclone:

Originally posted by naturalmwa:
This I think is an often under appreciated benefit of Obamacare. It frees entrepreneurs from the jobs they held simply for the benefits. Now they are free to strike out on their own with comparable healthcare. A safety net is very essential to the American Dream.
I read the article Natural and you are saying the same thing here that I said.

Again, What is the ROI?? I don't see those numbers in there anywhere??


It doesn't read to me like the same thing you said. I invite you to research your questions and report back what you find. TiA.
You don't address the issue at all. What is the ROI on this??

It is kind of like grants for college. I think that is one of the best programs they have. You give grants and they pay back the grant money through taxes for all those years they are employed.

So I decide to play gigs with my guitar and I make about 400 bucks a week so I am making 1600 per month and the taxpayer is paying for my food, my health insurance and my housing. Not much of an ROI on that is there??

You refuse to address that issue.
I have no dog in this fight, but, you seem to be ignoring the quote he pasted up there.

If they expand the program, and 100 people take advantage by starting a business, and 80 don't end up using the program, because their businesses are successful, do you really give a shit about the cost of the other 20?

I have no idea if that's what happened here, or really if I believe there is a correlative effect between food stamps availability and new entrepreneurship successes, but it seems you're not really acknowledging the part he quoted.

I also know that like 95%+ new business ventures fail, so, while small business growth is key for the economy, it's also a very dangerous thing to promote, because you are going to wind up with a hell of a lot of people who spent money trying to get their business off the ground and that money is now lost and they are, more or less, screwed.
 
How can anyone argue that the United States Welfare system is not the strongest welfare system the world has ever seen?
 
Originally posted by 22*43*51:

How can anyone argue that the United States Welfare system is not the strongest welfare system the world has ever seen?
I'd be interested in reading your argument that it is. That fact doesn't seem very apparent.
 
Originally posted by slieb85:

Originally posted by rocketclone:
Originally posted by naturalmwa:


Originally posted by rocketclone:

Originally posted by naturalmwa:
This I think is an often under appreciated benefit of Obamacare.  It frees entrepreneurs from the jobs they held simply for the benefits.  Now they are free to strike out on their own with comparable healthcare.  A safety net is very essential to the American Dream. 
I read the article Natural and you are saying the same thing here that I said.

Again, What is the ROI??  I don't see those numbers in there anywhere??


It doesn't read to me like the same thing you said. I invite you to research your questions and report back what you find. TiA.
You don't address the issue at all.  What is the ROI on this?? 

It is kind of like grants for college.  I think that is one of the best programs they have.  You give grants and they pay back the grant money through taxes for all those years they are employed.

So I decide to play gigs with my guitar and I make about 400 bucks a week so I am making 1600 per month and the taxpayer is paying for my food, my health insurance and my housing.  Not much of an ROI on that is there??

You refuse to address that issue.
I have no dog in this fight, but, you seem to be ignoring the quote he pasted up there.

If they expand the program, and 100 people take advantage by starting a business, and 80 don't end up using the program, because their businesses are successful, do you really give a shit about the cost of the other 20?

I have no idea if that's what happened here, or really if I believe there is a correlative effect between food stamps availability and new entrepreneurship successes, but it seems you're not really acknowledging the part he quoted.

I also know that like 95%+ new business ventures fail, so, while small business growth is key for the economy, it's also a very dangerous thing to promote, because you are going to wind up with a hell of a lot of people who spent money trying to get their business off the ground and that money is now lost and they are, more or less, screwed.

I care about the 20 that try to start a business but I also care about the other 70 people that are just sitting around not doing anything. What is the net economic benefit? The theory about less risk makes sense but saying the welfare increase just goes to entrepreneurs as implied by the title is false
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
Originally posted by slieb85:


Originally posted by rocketclone:

Originally posted by naturalmwa:



Originally posted by rocketclone:


Originally posted by naturalmwa:
This I think is an often under appreciated benefit of Obamacare. It frees entrepreneurs from the jobs they held simply for the benefits. Now they are free to strike out on their own with comparable healthcare. A safety net is very essential to the American Dream.
I read the article Natural and you are saying the same thing here that I said.

Again, What is the ROI?? I don't see those numbers in there anywhere??


It doesn't read to me like the same thing you said. I invite you to research your questions and report back what you find. TiA.
You don't address the issue at all. What is the ROI on this??

It is kind of like grants for college. I think that is one of the best programs they have. You give grants and they pay back the grant money through taxes for all those years they are employed.

So I decide to play gigs with my guitar and I make about 400 bucks a week so I am making 1600 per month and the taxpayer is paying for my food, my health insurance and my housing. Not much of an ROI on that is there??

You refuse to address that issue.
I have no dog in this fight, but, you seem to be ignoring the quote he pasted up there.

If they expand the program, and 100 people take advantage by starting a business, and 80 don't end up using the program, because their businesses are successful, do you really give a shit about the cost of the other 20?

I have no idea if that's what happened here, or really if I believe there is a correlative effect between food stamps availability and new entrepreneurship successes, but it seems you're not really acknowledging the part he quoted.

I also know that like 95%+ new business ventures fail, so, while small business growth is key for the economy, it's also a very dangerous thing to promote, because you are going to wind up with a hell of a lot of people who spent money trying to get their business off the ground and that money is now lost and they are, more or less, screwed.
The OP tries to make a point that if we pay for everybody's stuff, it leads to more entrepreneurs. This is what this "study" says. The old Soviet Union and Cuba are two great examples which shows the results just don't add up to real world.

Where does the money come from?? If I am the 20 percent footing the bill for the 80 percent then ya I give a shit.

The part he quoted talks about food stamps and them having something to fall back on, that is it. The poster goes on to say that Obamacare is great and they can use that. Well, there are many other parts to the puzzle other than food stamps. I started a business and I own the business and I didn't care if there were food stamps or not, I knew the risk and took it.

So with all these new entrepreneurs and only 5 percent make it, who is going to pay for all these freebies?

And fixing your math, if 100 try only 5 are going to make it using your 95 percent fail argument.

The bottom line is some people should own business and some shouldn't. It is kind of like housing. Some people are responsible enough to own a house and some aren't. When we try and let everyone own their own home we run into trouble, see the crash of 2008.

I see that same argument applying here, so we pay for their stuff and they try the business end of it, it turns out like housing, the money just isn't there.

It is always great using someone's money, and then when you crash and burn you get to use even more of other peoples money.

Eventually the pot runs dry and that leave nothing.
 
Originally posted by naturalmwa:

Originally posted by 22*43*51:

How can anyone argue that the United States Welfare system is not the strongest welfare system the world has ever seen?
I'd be interested in reading your argument that it is. That fact doesn't seem very apparent.
Take a trip to another country and see how their poor live compared to ours. I think that is pretty obvious.
 
Originally posted by rocketclone:

The OP tries to make a point that if we pay for everybody's stuff, it leads to more entrepreneurs. This is what this "study" says. The old Soviet Union and Cuba are two great examples which shows the results just don't add up to real world.
The study doesn't say this, your reading comprehension is horrible. The study says if people know the floor isn't so low, they are willing to take the risk to try to succeed on their own. The study says its that knowledge, that guarantee, not the actual delivery of any benefit that produces the courage to try to strike out and make themselves better.
 
Originally posted by rocketclone:
Originally posted by naturalmwa:

Originally posted by 22*43*51:

How can anyone argue that the United States Welfare system is not the strongest welfare system the world has ever seen?
I'd be interested in reading your argument that it is. That fact doesn't seem very apparent.
Take a trip to another country and see how their poor live compared to ours. I think that is pretty obvious.
Any country? You sure about that?
 
Originally posted by naturalmwa:
This I think is an often under appreciated benefit of Obamacare. It frees entrepreneurs from the jobs they held simply for the benefits. Now they are free to strike out on their own with comparable healthcare. A safety net is very essential to the American Dream.
I think Nancy Pelosi first verbalized this. Or was it Kathleen Sebelius? I can't remember.

It might work out for a few, but it's not a sound economic growth policy. It all sounds like a "follow your bliss" aging baby-boomer nightmare. Like the Albert Brooks movie Lost in America.
 
Originally posted by naturalmwa:

Originally posted by rocketclone:

Originally posted by naturalmwa:


Originally posted by 22*43*51:

How can anyone argue that the United States Welfare system is not the strongest welfare system the world has ever seen?
I'd be interested in reading your argument that it is. That fact doesn't seem very apparent.
Take a trip to another country and see how their poor live compared to ours. I think that is pretty obvious.
Any country? You sure about that?
Here is some reading for you.......

link
 
New businesses fail at a 95% rate apparently.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand...we want more of this?

The only thing I see guaranteed to be successful out of this ideology is the desire to get more people on the "welfare state" program.
 
Originally posted by naturalmwa:

Originally posted by rocketclone:

The OP tries to make a point that if we pay for everybody's stuff, it leads to more entrepreneurs. This is what this "study" says. The old Soviet Union and Cuba are two great examples which shows the results just don't add up to real world.
The study doesn't say this, your reading comprehension is horrible. The study says if people know the floor isn't so low, they are willing to take the risk to try to succeed on their own. The study says its that knowledge, that guarantee, not the actual delivery of any benefit that produces the courage to try to strike out and make themselves better.
Your understanding of economics and business is horrible. And I go back to my original question which you refuse to answer what is the ROI?? ROI means Return on Investment by the way.

You are looking at some feel good study and it still goes back to some people should own businesses and some shouldn't. So you want the American Tax Payer to foot the bill for those who want to go out and try.

Making themselves better? They can take classes and try and improve themselves in the industry they are in, that will make them feel better. There are also night classes now and online that people can work through to make them feel better.

You keep making your decisions on "feelings" instead of hard data, you are going to feel good but probably aren't going anywhere.

Our poverty rate has climbed the last few years and the government spending has gone up, aren't they feeling better??
 
Originally posted by bagdropper:

New businesses fail at a 95% rate apparently.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand...we want more of this?

The only thing I see guaranteed to be successful out of this ideology is the desire to get more people on the "welfare state" program.
But, But.......it makes people feel better.........
 
Originally posted by rocketclone:
Your understanding of economics and business is horrible. And I go back to my original question which you refuse to answer what is the ROI?? ROI means Return on Investment by the way.
Well it must be better than yours as I can actually read something and comprehend what it says. We both read the same article apparently, but not only can you not understand it, you are left poking around looking for answers to questions it doesn't try address. It you want those answers, go do your own research. Why you think I should spoon feed you those answers is the part that's beyond my comprehention, but your logic is often lazy.
 
Originally posted by rocketclone:
Originally posted by slieb85:


Originally posted by rocketclone:

Originally posted by naturalmwa:



Originally posted by rocketclone:


Originally posted by naturalmwa:
This I think is an often under appreciated benefit of Obamacare. It frees entrepreneurs from the jobs they held simply for the benefits. Now they are free to strike out on their own with comparable healthcare. A safety net is very essential to the American Dream.
I read the article Natural and you are saying the same thing here that I said.

Again, What is the ROI?? I don't see those numbers in there anywhere??


It doesn't read to me like the same thing you said. I invite you to research your questions and report back what you find. TiA.
You don't address the issue at all. What is the ROI on this??

It is kind of like grants for college. I think that is one of the best programs they have. You give grants and they pay back the grant money through taxes for all those years they are employed.

So I decide to play gigs with my guitar and I make about 400 bucks a week so I am making 1600 per month and the taxpayer is paying for my food, my health insurance and my housing. Not much of an ROI on that is there??

You refuse to address that issue.
I have no dog in this fight, but, you seem to be ignoring the quote he pasted up there.

If they expand the program, and 100 people take advantage by starting a business, and 80 don't end up using the program, because their businesses are successful, do you really give a shit about the cost of the other 20?

I have no idea if that's what happened here, or really if I believe there is a correlative effect between food stamps availability and new entrepreneurship successes, but it seems you're not really acknowledging the part he quoted.

I also know that like 95%+ new business ventures fail, so, while small business growth is key for the economy, it's also a very dangerous thing to promote, because you are going to wind up with a hell of a lot of people who spent money trying to get their business off the ground and that money is now lost and they are, more or less, screwed.
The OP tries to make a point that if we pay for everybody's stuff, it leads to more entrepreneurs. This is what this "study" says. The old Soviet Union and Cuba are two great examples which shows the results just don't add up to real world.

Where does the money come from?? If I am the 20 percent footing the bill for the 80 percent then ya I give a shit.

The part he quoted talks about food stamps and them having something to fall back on, that is it. The poster goes on to say that Obamacare is great and they can use that. Well, there are many other parts to the puzzle other than food stamps. I started a business and I own the business and I didn't care if there were food stamps or not, I knew the risk and took it.

So with all these new entrepreneurs and only 5 percent make it, who is going to pay for all these freebies?

And fixing your math, if 100 try only 5 are going to make it using your 95 percent fail argument.

The bottom line is some people should own business and some shouldn't. It is kind of like housing. Some people are responsible enough to own a house and some aren't. When we try and let everyone own their own home we run into trouble, see the crash of 2008.

I see that same argument applying here, so we pay for their stuff and they try the business end of it, it turns out like housing, the money just isn't there.

It is always great using someone's money, and then when you crash and burn you get to use even more of other peoples money.

Eventually the pot runs dry and that leave nothing.

[/QUOTE]Holy cow your reading comprehension is awful.

1. The article itself, in the quoted party by natural, says "most of these entrepreneurs didn't enroll in the food stamp program."

SO, if most aren't doing it, it must mean things somehow have worked out for them, right? So, that means, for MOST of the people who started a business due to this safety net, the program worked, because they didn't wind up needing food stamps.

2. I'm well aware of the math. That's general population statistics. I think it would be a really bad idea for each and every one of us to quit our jobs and go start a business. But, perhaps, this program has allowed people who normally wouldn't have taken the risk to, in fact, take the risk, and then, guess what, the market supported their businesses, and they outperformed the general statistics for entrepreneurial success.

The rest of your post is drivel. You're spouting out shit about using other people's money. In my hypothetical, and in the quote natural posted above, most of people who use this (or a hypothetical program) don't wind up needing any taxpayer money (at least in the form of food stamps, there are obviously other tax benefits provided to help small businesses). So, why sit here and whine and bitch about these people "using other people's money", when, in both situations, they weren't? Because it's what you've been taught? Because you're unwilling to challenge your assumptions?


I'll alter my original question, and see if I can get you on record here. Let's say there is a government program, and this government program is an application for special food stamp aid. And in order to be approved for the aid, you have to go through a short screening process. And we approve, for ease of numbers, 100,000 new cases. Now, the only way you get this aid, is, if your business fails. You still get all other associated tax breaks and incentives currently available to new entrepreneurs. But, as an extra nudge to get you to leave your stable job, the U.S. Government will pre-approve you for food stamps.

Now, let's say 100,000 new businesses start, strictly because of this new "entitlement" or "benefit" or "safety net" (depending on your ideology). 80,000 are successes, 20,000 are failures, and we add 20,000 new food stamp recipients (illustrating that there was a market there for smart/innovative people, but perhaps people who were unwilling to risk it without the safety net).

Was this a program a success? Was it a good idea? (those are two different questions for some, I believe)

How about if the numbers were more like 60,000 new businesses succeeding and 40,000 new food stamps? 50/50? 40/60?

I honestly think it would be interesting to see what some people on here believe is a justifiable cost for economic growth. I'll post my answer tonight or tomorrow night.
 
Originally posted by rocketclone:

Originally posted by bagdropper:

New businesses fail at a 95% rate apparently.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand...we want more of this?

The only thing I see guaranteed to be successful out of this ideology is the desire to get more people on the "welfare state" program.
But, But.......it makes people feel better.........
Not I. Torbee was correct about that.

Only in their world would this be a good idea. The idea is what's important. The execution of the idea...doesn't matter. It's this mentality that makes Obama a great president. He has ideas!
 
Originally posted by naturalmwa:

Originally posted by rocketclone:

Your understanding of economics and business is horrible. And I go back to my original question which you refuse to answer what is the ROI?? ROI means Return on Investment by the way.
Well it must be better than yours as I can actually read something and comprehend what it says. We both read the same article apparently, but not only can you not understand it, you are left poking around looking for answers to questions it doesn't try address. It you want those answers, go do your own research. Why you think I should spoon feed you those answers is the part that's beyond my comprehention, but your logic is often lazy.
Your the one touting how great this could be so cough up some number to prove your point. I am not the one trying to tell everyone if we pay for their stuff they will feel better and do better..................but looking at real number doesn't involve feelings

Your just not making me feel good..............you should be ashamed..........
 
Originally posted by rocketclone:
Originally posted by naturalmwa:

Originally posted by rocketclone:

Originally posted by naturalmwa:


Originally posted by 22*43*51:

How can anyone argue that the United States Welfare system is not the strongest welfare system the world has ever seen?
I'd be interested in reading your argument that it is. That fact doesn't seem very apparent.
Take a trip to another country and see how their poor live compared to ours. I think that is pretty obvious.
Any country? You sure about that?
Here is some reading for you.......
This is another case of your poor reading comprehention on display, thanks for providing it. Your article isn't about reletive strangths of wealfare systems in various nations, but about poverty conditions in general. And you might note, that US isn't even the best on that front. Your own source says Canada, Sweden and Australia are all better places to be poor. Perhaps you should visit.

inequality.png
 
Originally posted by rocketclone:
Originally posted by bagdropper:

New businesses fail at a 95% rate apparently.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand...we want more of this?

The only thing I see guaranteed to be successful out of this ideology is the desire to get more people on the "welfare state" program.
But, But.......it makes people feel better.........
New businesses fail at a 95% clip for all sorts of reasons. #1 reason is lack of funds.

Do I have 2 die hard Republicans on record being against small business? Seems about right, since the entire party has turned into corporatists.
 
Originally posted by naturalmwa:

Originally posted by rocketclone:

Originally posted by naturalmwa:


Originally posted by rocketclone:


Originally posted by naturalmwa:



Originally posted by 22*43*51:

How can anyone argue that the United States Welfare system is not the strongest welfare system the world has ever seen?
I'd be interested in reading your argument that it is. That fact doesn't seem very apparent.
Take a trip to another country and see how their poor live compared to ours. I think that is pretty obvious.
Any country? You sure about that?
Here is some reading for you.......
This is another case of your poor reading comprehention on display, thanks for providing it. Your article isn't about reletive strangths of wealfare systems in various nations, but about poverty conditions in general. And you might note, that US isn't even the best on that front. Your own source says Canada, Sweden and Australia are all better places to be poor. Perhaps you should visit.

ec
LOL oh good for you, you pointed out THREE places........LOL LOL
 
Originally posted by bagdropper:

New businesses fail at a 95% rate apparently.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand...we want more of this?

The only thing I see guaranteed to be successful out of this ideology is the desire to get more people on the "welfare state" program.
Yes, they should all give up and be wage slaves, thats what made America great. You must have been conditioned to wear chains from an early age.
 
Originally posted by rocketclone:
I have no dog in this fight, but, you seem to be ignoring the quote he pasted up there.

If they expand the program, and 100 people take advantage by starting a business, and 80 don't end up using the program, because their businesses are successful, do you really give a shit about the cost of the other 20?

I have no idea if that's what happened here, or really if I believe there is a correlative effect between food stamps availability and new entrepreneurship successes, but it seems you're not really acknowledging the part he quoted.

I also know that like 95%+ new business ventures fail, so, while small business growth is key for the economy, it's also a very dangerous thing to promote, because you are going to wind up with a hell of a lot of people who spent money trying to get their business off the ground and that money is now lost and they are, more or less, screwed.
The OP tries to make a point that if we pay for everybody's stuff, it leads to more entrepreneurs. This is what this "study" says. The old Soviet Union and Cuba are two great examples which shows the results just don't add up to real world.

Where does the money come from?? If I am the 20 percent footing the bill for the 80 percent then ya I give a shit.

The part he quoted talks about food stamps and them having something to fall back on, that is it. The poster goes on to say that Obamacare is great and they can use that. Well, there are many other parts to the puzzle other than food stamps. I started a business and I own the business and I didn't care if there were food stamps or not, I knew the risk and took it.

So with all these new entrepreneurs and only 5 percent make it, who is going to pay for all these freebies?

And fixing your math, if 100 try only 5 are going to make it using your 95 percent fail argument.

The bottom line is some people should own business and some shouldn't. It is kind of like housing. Some people are responsible enough to own a house and some aren't. When we try and let everyone own their own home we run into trouble, see the crash of 2008.

I see that same argument applying here, so we pay for their stuff and they try the business end of it, it turns out like housing, the money just isn't there.

It is always great using someone's money, and then when you crash and burn you get to use even more of other peoples money.

Eventually the pot runs dry and that leave nothing.
With all due respect, RocketClone, you are falling into the classic trap of this being a zero-sum game, all-or-nothing argument.

No one - and certainly not the study authors in the article - are advocating for a Soviet or Cuban style government where ALL decision making and business elements are controlled by a central government. That is absurd, and of COURSE antithetical to entrepreneurship, innovation and economic liberty.

HOWEVER, it is clear that a robust and healthy social safety net - yes, one paid for by the hard-working citizens of a society - actually INCREASES the ability for that society to succeed and innovate and create new businesses and jobs.

What really boggles my mind is how so many modern conservatives refuse to acknowledge that the vast majority of their fellow conservatives from the past didn't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater - that is, they SUPPORTED a (limited, and much more limited than their liberal colleagues) - a social safety net. But the modern conservative appears to want a more failed-state form of rampant libertarianism, that frankly, is just as much a fantasy of failure as even the most fevered communistic state.
 
Originally posted by slieb85:


Originally posted by rocketclone:

Originally posted by bagdropper:

New businesses fail at a 95% rate apparently.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand...we want more of this?

The only thing I see guaranteed to be successful out of this ideology is the desire to get more people on the "welfare state" program.
But, But.......it makes people feel better.........
New businesses fail at a 95% clip for all sorts of reasons. #1 reason is lack of funds.

Do I have 2 die hard Republicans on record being against small business? Seems about right, since the entire party has turned into corporatists.
I am all for small business, and I understand it is for lack of funds. So get a loan, oh wait, we can't anymore because the fed has tightened up the ability to get a loan.

Go talk to a banker and see how getting money is anymore.
 
It is an interesting article, and worth reading, but the more closely I read it, the less persuasive I found it to be. There are qualifiers, like SOME states where the researcher tried to establish a link, which made for a weaker argument. In addition, I didn't see anywhere where a direct, causal effect could be shown. The researcher looked at some statistics, in some cases possibly cherry picked, and drew conclusions without specific direct evidence.

But the biggest issue I had was the comment in the last paragraph, where the author says that there is no doubt that we have become less entrepreneurial over the last few decades. What he doesn't mention is that during the same time, the U.S. has seen the most dramatic growth in welfare benefits in its history, beginning with The Great Society under LBJ.

I will agree that appropriate safety nets are helpful and necessary to a society, but I am unconvinced that the relationship to entrepreneurship is as this article and study suggest.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
Originally posted by rocketclone:

Your the one touting how great this could be so cough up some number to prove your point. I am not the one trying to tell everyone if we pay for their stuff they will feel better and do better..................but looking at real number doesn't involve feelings

Your just not making me feel good..............you should be ashamed..........
No one is trying to say that, which is why at the moment I'm having great fun in this thread and feeling rather smug actually. Thanks.
 
Originally posted by rocketclone:

LOL oh good for you, you pointed out THREE places........LOL LOL
Reading comprehension, you're really bad at it:

Originally posted by 22*43*51: How can anyone argue that the United States Welfare system is not the strongest welfare system the world has ever seen?

Originally posted by naturalmwa: Any country? You sure about that?
 
Originally posted by torbee:


Originally posted by rocketclone:

I have no dog in this fight, but, you seem to be ignoring the quote he pasted up there.

If they expand the program, and 100 people take advantage by starting a business, and 80 don't end up using the program, because their businesses are successful, do you really give a shit about the cost of the other 20?

I have no idea if that's what happened here, or really if I believe there is a correlative effect between food stamps availability and new entrepreneurship successes, but it seems you're not really acknowledging the part he quoted.

I also know that like 95%+ new business ventures fail, so, while small business growth is key for the economy, it's also a very dangerous thing to promote, because you are going to wind up with a hell of a lot of people who spent money trying to get their business off the ground and that money is now lost and they are, more or less, screwed.
The OP tries to make a point that if we pay for everybody's stuff, it leads to more entrepreneurs. This is what this "study" says. The old Soviet Union and Cuba are two great examples which shows the results just don't add up to real world.

Where does the money come from?? If I am the 20 percent footing the bill for the 80 percent then ya I give a shit.

The part he quoted talks about food stamps and them having something to fall back on, that is it. The poster goes on to say that Obamacare is great and they can use that. Well, there are many other parts to the puzzle other than food stamps. I started a business and I own the business and I didn't care if there were food stamps or not, I knew the risk and took it.

So with all these new entrepreneurs and only 5 percent make it, who is going to pay for all these freebies?

And fixing your math, if 100 try only 5 are going to make it using your 95 percent fail argument.

The bottom line is some people should own business and some shouldn't. It is kind of like housing. Some people are responsible enough to own a house and some aren't. When we try and let everyone own their own home we run into trouble, see the crash of 2008.

I see that same argument applying here, so we pay for their stuff and they try the business end of it, it turns out like housing, the money just isn't there.

It is always great using someone's money, and then when you crash and burn you get to use even more of other peoples money.

Eventually the pot runs dry and that leave nothing.
With all due respect, RocketClone, you are falling into the classic trap of this being a zero-sum game, all-or-nothing argument.

No one - and certainly not the study authors in the article - are advocating for a Soviet or Cuban style government where ALL decision making and business elements are controlled by a central government. That is absurd, and of COURSE antithetical to entrepreneurship, innovation and economic liberty.

HOWEVER, it is clear that a robust and healthy social safety net - yes, one paid for by the hard-working citizens of a society - actually INCREASES the ability for that society to succeed and innovate and create new businesses and jobs.

What really boggles my mind is how so many modern conservatives refuse to acknowledge that the vast majority of their fellow conservatives from the past didn't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater - that is, they SUPPORTED a (limited, and much more limited than their liberal colleagues) - a social safety net. But the modern conservative appears to want a more failed-state form of rampant libertarianism, that frankly, is just as much a fantasy of failure as even the most fevered communistic state.
I have no problem with a safety net, no problem at all. However, when you start to make a living off that safety net, that is where I have problems. The idea is great and is started with all good intentions, but guess what happens, people use and abuse it.

A lot of things the government does is with great intentions, and I will give them that, but it usually backfires.

Let's look at Hormel Foods. Great job, good pay, very good benefits. They have people starting there and they last TWO days and then quit. They would rather work the system then work there because it is hard work. Hormel now bringing in people from other countries to work. Why, because people won't work and rely on the handouts. They are happy with the handouts and have their days free.

Lets look at a trip to Caseys, someone with an EBT card buy 5 Mountain Dews and 10 candy bars, really??

If it was truly a social safety net, I would agree with you 100 percent. But it has turned into people using it as their career, well that is where we disagree.

I wish there was a way to fix it but some just refuse to engage and simply don't want to work. Figure out a way to weed them out and the ones who are just having hard luck between jobs and I will totally agree with you.
 
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