There has been a lot of discussion this morning about the potential seeding nightmare at 157. If Gantt gets the #1 seed it could throw Nolf and Imar together in the semis. How do the seeding geniuses handle this one? Will ESPN step in to help?
Seeding 157 at NCAAs
- Thread starter pablow
- Start date
I think they have to use the "eye test" on this one like how Nickal got the 1 seed over Meyer. I would seed them
1Imar
2Nolf
3Gantt
4Miller
5JoJo
Then everyone else.
Let's hope not. They don't know ANYTHING about wrestling.
A couple years ago if I remember right, Gadson was the top ranked guy at 197 and ended up getting seeded like 5th-6th. I wouldn't be surprised if I-Mar and Nolf still got the top two seeds.
That would be good for us. Give Imar the chance to keep Nolf out of the finals.
Don't sleep on Gantt. I've watched him many times this year. I agree IMar and Nolf are the top two but Gantt is certainly good enough to beat either one of those two if a few things go right. I think he is definitely third but maybe not as distant as some think.
FYI, FRom last year:
" Each wrestler was measured on the following: Division I winning percentage at the weight class, rating percentage index (RPI) and coaches ranking. "
http://www.ncaa.com/news/wrestling/...unces-qualifier-allocations-2015-di-wrestling
" Each wrestler was measured on the following: Division I winning percentage at the weight class, rating percentage index (RPI) and coaches ranking. "
http://www.ncaa.com/news/wrestling/...unces-qualifier-allocations-2015-di-wrestling
Based on the fact that the only person to beat IMAR was Nolf, and vice versa, and that both the NCAA RPI and Intermat have Gantt ranked number 4th in the country behind Nolf and IMAR, I just can't imagine a scenario where Gantt jumps either of them, nor beats either of them come tourney time. Sure Gantt won the ACC, but did so against the top 7 (RPI) and top 5 (Intermat) wrestler in the country (by two points). Nolf and IMAR in my opinion are in an entirely different league.
I'm not sure JOJO gets that high. He lost to Palacio also. I think Brascetta could be ranked ahead of him also.
I agree 100%. I'm just thinking about the Robles/McD scenario a few years ago when the undefeated record trumped all else.
The problem with looking at the RPI is:
To be eligible for an RPI ranking, a wrestler must have a minimum of 17 Division I matches at a given weight class.
So following the RPI, Snyder is unranked at heavyweight...when in fact that's going to be a battle between him and Gwiz, at least one would assume.
To be eligible for an RPI ranking, a wrestler must have a minimum of 17 Division I matches at a given weight class.
So following the RPI, Snyder is unranked at heavyweight...when in fact that's going to be a battle between him and Gwiz, at least one would assume.
Gantt should absolutely get the 1 seed. He has beaten everyone that was put in front of him this year and never not shown up. It's not like he had a cupcake schedule like Ian Miller did. He has very good wins, Brascetta 2x, Cooper 2x, Boyle, Chad Walsch, Pack, Berger, etc. He also showed up to a little tournament called midlands expecting to wrestle IMAR. It's not his fault nor should he punished for Illinois not showing up. It was also rumored at the time they wrestled OSU that Jo Jo would be coming out of redshirt. Once again Gantt showed up. In my opinion he is a clear number 1. I see something like this.
1.Gantt 2. IMAR 3. Nolf 4. Ian Miller 5. Brascetta 6. Palacio 7. JOJO
1.Gantt 2. IMAR 3. Nolf 4. Ian Miller 5. Brascetta 6. Palacio 7. JOJO
Outstanding argument. However, since the names IMAR and Nolf are nowhere in the argument, I just can't buy it. And trust me, I don't have a dog in this fight (don't even like IMAR or Nolf - hope they both lose), but based on body of work, I don't see how you can put Gantt above the other 2 unless he beat one or both of the other two...and he hasn't done that yet -- doesn't matter if he had the chance or not. Just my humble opinion...
It is VERY important to remember the seeding committee(made up of less than 1/2 being actual DI wrestling coaches) and seeding criteria are LITERALLY designed to REMOVE the "eye test". The current system is designed to try to 100% remove opinions and go SOLELY by the numbers.
With that said, it is VERY hard to seed one loss wrestlers over an undefeated guy that wrestled his entire team schedule that included Midlands,#2 Iowa, #3 OkState, #5 VTech, #9 Nebraska and #13 Minnesota. You can't control what ranked guys are in your weight class, but his team wrestled a very tough schedule.
Also, the committee did set a precedent by seeding an undefeated Port #1 when Stieber and Retherford went 1-1 against each other during the season. In the end, Port did beat 1 of the 2 at that tournament, although he did get upset earlier!
With that said, it is VERY hard to seed one loss wrestlers over an undefeated guy that wrestled his entire team schedule that included Midlands,#2 Iowa, #3 OkState, #5 VTech, #9 Nebraska and #13 Minnesota. You can't control what ranked guys are in your weight class, but his team wrestled a very tough schedule.
Also, the committee did set a precedent by seeding an undefeated Port #1 when Stieber and Retherford went 1-1 against each other during the season. In the end, Port did beat 1 of the 2 at that tournament, although he did get upset earlier!
Port was not undefeated, he had one loss - as did Streiebler. Retherford had three loses. Not quite the same as here becuase there was no agrument for Retherford to be #2. Many, many, times wrestlers with better records are seeded lower at the NCAAs because of lack of quality wins. So what's so magical about an undefeated season if Gantt does not face the returning NCAA champion and does not wrestle Nolf who beat the champ and beat Gantt last year. Should he be entitled to a presumption that he beats these two? If so, why?
I think putting Nolf and Imar in the same bracket is about as dumb as putting Gwiz and Synder on the same side. It will damage the tournament.
I would much rather see them meet in the finals also I just personally don't think it will happen. What would have made things really crazy is if Ian Miller was still undefeated.
Imar and Nolf have showed they were both human this year. I think Gantt will give them all they want(not saying he can or will win)
Imar and Nolf have showed they were both human this year. I think Gantt will give them all they want(not saying he can or will win)
I'm on the fence with this but Im kinda hoping Nolf and IMar are on the same side of the brackets. I think Nolfs chances increase if the two meet in the semis instead of the finals. Imar looked worn out Saturday night needing to keep his weight down for next day weigh ins so couldn't recover much. Sunday after recovering he looked much stronger. Same thing could happen at Nationals.
Port was unbeaten going into the tournament, and took his only loss of the season there. Stieber had one loss going in, the dual with Zain. Zain had one loss going in, the B1G final, and picked up two more losses there. That's where you see 1 loss for Port on his record and 3 for Zain.
I want Nolf and IMAR to be 1&2 but unfortunately there is precedent to give the unbeaten wrestler the 1 seed, and I would be upset but not shocked to see it happen here
Remember during Midlands when we as a board were all knocking Illinois for not showing up. They stated "it just wasn't going to work out." They have no one to blame but themselves for not going. This would have been solved very easily if they had been there since he would have wrestled Gantt.
I agree that Nolf/IMAR are the top 2 at this weight hands down. But, as mentioned, it is hard to keep Gantt off the #1 seed.
I think the committee should make sure that Nolf/Imar get the 4 seed.
1. Gantt - because of undefeated record
2. Imar - 1 loss that was avenged. Defending champ.
3. Miller - 1 loss by med fft, and defending AA
4. Nolf.
I think the committee should make sure that Nolf/Imar get the 4 seed.
1. Gantt - because of undefeated record
2. Imar - 1 loss that was avenged. Defending champ.
3. Miller - 1 loss by med fft, and defending AA
4. Nolf.
Port was absolutely undefeated going into the NCAA Tournament. The final brackets show records AFTER the tournament is over. Stieber and Retherford had 1 loss each to each other. Retherford then lost to Stieber and Port in wrestlebacks to end with 3 losses......
I too am of the opinion that a Nolf/IMar semi is more beneficial to Nolf. I'm hoping the seeds are #1 Gantt, #2 IMar, #3 Nolf and #4 Miller. Either way, ya gotta beat 'em all to stand on top Saturday night.
That would be funny. How often do you see a coach arguing for a worse seed at a seeding meeting? What hurts Miller is he's wrestled absolutely no one this year. His best win is probably vs. Boyle of American.
I've been extremely impressed with Gantt. I wouldn't favor him over Nolf or Imar but I do think he could beat them. Good motor, strong, super slick...
Defending NCAA champ with 1 loss in his college career, and the guy who's beaten him. Gantt, meanwhile, has "shown up." Four Aces beats a pair of Jacks.
It's better for us having those two on the same side anyways. Nolf losses in the semis then pulls a Mike Evans and takes his ball and goes home and takes 6th. Meanwhile Coop pins Gantt in the quarters on his way to the finals.
This a two horse race between IMAR and Nolf, and I would be willing to put my life savings on them being in the finals if they are 1 and 2 seed which they should be. Both are easily top 5 in nation pound for pound.
I did notice that IMAR looked horrible up to his standards in his first 3 matches and did not look like the wrestler that won a NT in St. Louis last year at all, honestly thought Nolf was going to win by 4-6 points. However he silenced my doubts by winning an incredible match against Nolf in the finals where he again looked like the normal IMAR. Just am extremely puzzled how he needed a late takedown to beat Murphy from Michigan and only won 14-11 in the quarters against Nebraska kid I think.
I did notice that IMAR looked horrible up to his standards in his first 3 matches and did not look like the wrestler that won a NT in St. Louis last year at all, honestly thought Nolf was going to win by 4-6 points. However he silenced my doubts by winning an incredible match against Nolf in the finals where he again looked like the normal IMAR. Just am extremely puzzled how he needed a late takedown to beat Murphy from Michigan and only won 14-11 in the quarters against Nebraska kid I think.
you forgot about when ruschell threw him to his back and arguably had him pinned in the first round.
157 is an absolute juggernaut. It's 20 deep and there's about 8 guys that could have won titles at the weight in other years.
Im really looking forward to seeing how Palacio does. He's finally down to his natural weight and missed the first half of the year. He had a really bad loss right out if the gate but has been wrestling well since. He beat Jo Jo pretty good.
How good is Gantt? He beat Brascetta twice who wrestled Nolf tough and is a 2xAA
Yes, it may be a two man race but I think there will be done battles.
Im really looking forward to seeing how Palacio does. He's finally down to his natural weight and missed the first half of the year. He had a really bad loss right out if the gate but has been wrestling well since. He beat Jo Jo pretty good.
How good is Gantt? He beat Brascetta twice who wrestled Nolf tough and is a 2xAA
Yes, it may be a two man race but I think there will be done battles.
[QUOTE="tigerpride_32, post: 2372169, member: 29565"]This a two horse race between IMAR and Nolf, and I would be willing to put my life savings on them being in the finals if they are 1 and 2 seed which they should be. Both are easily top 5 in nation pound for pound.
I did notice that IMAR looked horrible up to his standards in his first 3 matches and did not look like the wrestler that won a NT in St. Louis last year at all, honestly thought Nolf was going to win by 4-6 points. However he silenced my doubts by winning an incredible match against Nolf in the finals where he again looked like the normal IMAR. Just am extremely puzzled how he needed a late takedown to beat Murphy from Michigan and only won 14-11 in the quarters against Nebraska kid I think.[/QUOTE]
!00% correct I too wondered what was going on with Imar. He looked lethargic even in the finals at times. I had picked Nolf to beat him. Maybe Imar was slicking us into thinking he was out of it? That was one heck of a match and loved the end result.
I did notice that IMAR looked horrible up to his standards in his first 3 matches and did not look like the wrestler that won a NT in St. Louis last year at all, honestly thought Nolf was going to win by 4-6 points. However he silenced my doubts by winning an incredible match against Nolf in the finals where he again looked like the normal IMAR. Just am extremely puzzled how he needed a late takedown to beat Murphy from Michigan and only won 14-11 in the quarters against Nebraska kid I think.[/QUOTE]
!00% correct I too wondered what was going on with Imar. He looked lethargic even in the finals at times. I had picked Nolf to beat him. Maybe Imar was slicking us into thinking he was out of it? That was one heck of a match and loved the end result.
Nolf beat Gantt in the scuffle last year something like 6-1. Nolf wrestled Braschetta early and that was his coming out party (like Nickal beating Epperly).
While it's not solely 2 guys, I think the ACC guys are a step behind. A healthy JoJo and Palacio are dangerous
And they absolutely should have! They are a ranking service, which is considerably different than seeding. They rely heavily on the "eye test" and who they THINK is the best going down the list. Seedings, on the other hand, are based solely on numbers and most of the committee hasn't seen(no eye test) Martinez, Nolf or Gantt even wrestle a match.
With the above said, I am not a true fan of the criteria. It definitely has it's pluses, but it has minuses as well. Past accomplishments at the NCAA Tournament are ABSOLUTELY a significant indicator of how a wrestler will perform. The fact that Martinez was an undefeated, dominant champ last year means NOTHING. So that basically devalues Nolf's win over Martinez and subsequently diminishes Martinez having avenged that loss.
By the numbers, they both have a loss, while Gantt is undefeated having wrestled his full team schedule(which was actually very difficult). If he had a shortened season and less matches, I could see him being penalized. But, that isn't the case. For the committee to drop Gantt down, they would have to deviate from the criteria and use "opinion". Gantt has been pretty dominant in his own right. Having not lost a match, you have NO data to definitively say he would lose. The best common opponent indicator is Brascetta and Gantt beat him 2x, once by the exact same score as Nolf.
By the criteria solely, I just don't see how they don't seed Gantt #1. But that doesn't mean I think he SHOULD be #1.
Although the seeding Gods claim to use an "objective" selection criteria, I'm willing to bet that the committee manages to place Gwiz and Synder on opposite sides of the bracket. In other words, they can and do game their own system.
I'm not arguing with you, I'm just feel Imar and Nolf should not be penalized for wrestling each other twice while Gantt is rewarded for facing neither. Seems pretty stupid to me.
pablow,
In the case of Snyder they actually do have enough info to place Snyder #2, even at 6-0. He dominated all of his opponents and 4 of those wins are over NCAA qualifiers, with one being over an 18-1 Coon(at the time). With them asking for Conference results to be more valuable, I think they now have the avenue to rank him higher than his 6 match total would have warranted in years past.
In the case of Snyder they actually do have enough info to place Snyder #2, even at 6-0. He dominated all of his opponents and 4 of those wins are over NCAA qualifiers, with one being over an 18-1 Coon(at the time). With them asking for Conference results to be more valuable, I think they now have the avenue to rank him higher than his 6 match total would have warranted in years past.
I though Synder did not have enough matches to warrant a RPI rating and therefore could not get a high seed. ?????
DI wrestling does this to a degree by using the following in bold:
Criteria Weighted Percentage
Head-to-Head 25%
Quality Wins 20%
Common opponents 10%
RPI 10%
Qualifying placement 10%
Coaches Rank 10%
Win % 10%
Number of matches 5%
1.)The first 25% is eliminated.
2.) Martinez is 26-1, but I only really see 8(Top20) quality wins(Smith, Ryan,Cooper, MurphyX2, BergerX2 and Nolf). Nolf is 29-1, but he only has 8 as well(Brascetta,Walsh, Smith, Martinez, Murphy, Ryan, Berger and Cooper). He would have had 9, but Minotti won't count due to injury keeping him out of his qualifier. Gantt is 24-0 and has 10(CooperX2, Walsh, Pack, Boyle, Cottrell, Berger, Barnes and BrascettaX2).
3.)Pretty even. Gantt beat Cooper twice by Major. Martinez and Nolf beat Cooper by TF. Gantt beat Berger by Major, Martinez beat him 2x by regular decision. Nolf beat Berger by TF. Nolf beat Walsh by Major and Walsh was Gantt's only close match winning in OT. Gantt beat Brascetta by the exact same score as Nolf and also beat him a 2nd time.
4.)They are all top 3. I need to see the final RPI to see the exact order.
5.)Gantt and Martinez are even. Nolf taking 2nd loses this criteria.
6.)Interested to see the newest rankings. This is the one criteria I think could hurt Gantt.
7.)Gantt wins by being undefeated.
8.)Negligible difference.
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