Shogun

[Tenacious E]

Loved the series.

Watched a few interviews with the stars and producers about the series.

Apparently they had a switch from the original producers (the Toranaga (sp?) actor became a producer). Anyway, just seemed like a rush job for the final episode. That one episode easily could have been made into 2 or 3 to flesh it out.

Still loved it as a whole but could have been so much more.

As far as the troops amassing for a battle...thought the CGI was really sub par, barely could make out the troops. Was looking forward to an awesome battle scene

Someone else made the comment that if this was an HBO production instead of FX it would have made a big difference, in terms of that kind of thing.

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Someone else made the comment that if this was an HBO production instead of FX it would have made a big difference, in terms of that kind of thing.

They obviously underestimated the appetite for a series like that. Would have been great for HBO.

 

[TennNole17]

Last episode(ep9) was great- and series great- but that final episode felt like a huge letdown

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Last episode(ep9) was great- and series great- but that final episode felt like a huge letdown

I'm pretty convinced they ran out of $$$ during production.

The quality of the last episode was so far removed from the rest of the episodes and they crammed WAY too much stuff in it.

 

[FAUlty Gator]

They payoff at the end is great, in my book. I would put it in my top 10 series in terms of enjoyment. Below I tried to make a top 10, but I couldn't. Shows I've loved include, in no particular order:

• Game of thrones
• the last of us
• lessons in chemistry
• osark
• lost
• shogun
• alone (the survival show)
• modern family
• this is us
• breaking bad
• mad men
• mare of easttown
• the office
• fawlty towers
• Fallout
• it's always sunny in philadelphia
• curb your enthusiasm
• simpsons
• mash
• parks and rec
• arrested development

Goliath
Sneaky Pete
Tin Star (season 1)

 

[TennNole17]

I'm pretty convinced they ran out of $$$ during production.

The quality of the last episode was so far removed from the rest of the episodes and they crammed WAY too much stuff in it.

Agree. The pacing and tone of the episode didn’t align with anything this year.
The weird old man blackthorn scenes?
Blackthorn wanting to mill himself to save the town?
It all didn’t work.

Again- I loved the series- I ate breakfast on Tuesdays watching new episodes. But that ending made me sad

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Agree. The pacing and tone of the episode didn’t align with anything this year.
The weird old man blackthorn scenes?
Blackthorn wanting to mill himself to save the town?
It all didn’t work.

Again- I loved the series- I ate breakfast on Tuesdays watching new episodes. But that ending made me sad

*Spoiler*











Did you notice he tossed the cross that he was holding in the old man scenes in the ocean

When he went out with his concubine in the boat to spread the ashes and dumped it. Unless he went down in some scuba gear I don't know he had that on his death bed. Sloppy.

It was a rush job for the last episode due to $$$ IMO.

 

[Fijimn]

Agree. The pacing and tone of the episode didn’t align with anything this year.
The weird old man blackthorn scenes?
Blackthorn wanting to mill himself to save the town?
It all didn’t work.

Again- I loved the series- I ate breakfast on Tuesdays watching new episodes. But that ending made me sad

hate to read this. Just finished the previous episode on the treadmill. The intensity of the scene while Hiromatsu commits seppuku almost made me fall off

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Ending felt underwhelming to me. I guess I was expecting it to crescendo into this big explosive ending but the most explosive part is when Blackthorne attempts to commit seppeku but is stopped. Then the plan is revealed and Yabushige commits seppeku and that's the end.

 

[fsu1jreed]

*Spoiler*











Did you notice he tossed the cross that he was holding in the old man scenes in the ocean

When he went out with his concubine in the boat to spread the ashes and dumped it. Unless he went down in some scuba gear I don't know he had that on his death bed. Sloppy.

It was a rush job for the last episode due to $$$ IMO.

Because it was a dream sequence

 

[WhiteSoxClone]

9 great episodes that lead to a big nothing burger of a 10th episode IMHO. The last episode was such a letdown that it tarnished the entire season for me. Not sure that I would recommend it after seeing the final.

 

[TennNole17]

Because it was a dream sequence

which was?

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Because it was a dream sequence

If so...a totally unneeded dream sequence

Didn't make it very clear that it was a "dream sequence" to me..

 

[1inamillion]

Shogun takes me back to my all time favorite teacher. Mr. Boyle, 7th grade social studies. We were studying European Geography at the time the original Shogun aired. I think it debuted on a Sunday. On Monday, a kid asked Mr. Boyle if he watched Shogun last night. They got in a conversation about it. Suddenly Mr. Boyle says that he's changing plans and this week we would be studying Japanese History Samurai Warriors for the rest of the week. Our assignment was to watch Shogun. So pre-internet he gathers information on 1600s Japan and we study it for the week. He just scrapped his lessons and switched directions. It was AWESOME. He was so excited to be able to have us study it. Great memory.

Back when teachers could simply teach and not be micromanaged for every moment.

One my greatest regret in life has been failing to thank the great teachers I had in high school. They set the stage for the great life that followed.

 

[Rifler]

One my greatest regret in life has been failing to thank the great teachers I had in high school.

I think the truly exceptional people you encounter in life have a tendency to appear pretty normal, until years later, after you've been exposed the endless stream of idiots that populate this world...

 

[fsu1jreed]

which was?

Him in bed in England...he never left Japan

 

[Tenacious E]

Him in bed in England...he never left Japan

Not according to the showmakers:

Justin Marks: There’s a little ambiguity that we’d like to stay there. But definitively, after the shock of Mariko’s death, we initially frame the story as if it were the recollection of an old man looking back on his life with regret in some way, only to find that what we were really seeing was the dream of a young man looking forward with regret to the life that he could possibly have. We really wanted Blackthorne’s choice at the end of this show, from the very beginning, to be about a denial of this path. To turn towards a new identity, a new life. There’s a very famous portion of the book where Blackthorne proposes seppuku, and that’s a moment that carries a lot of weight. But it occurs earlier in the book, and we didn’t feel like it was earned, so we kicked it down the line to where it carried more weight. That began to be the Rosetta stone that allowed us to open up Blackthorne throughout the season.

Shōgun’s Ambiguous Ending, Explained by Its Creators

Toranaga and Blackthorne turn toward a new life—and a new world.

slate.com

 

[fsu1jreed]

Not according to the showmakers:

Justin Marks: There’s a little ambiguity that we’d like to stay there. But definitively, after the shock of Mariko’s death, we initially frame the story as if it were the recollection of an old man looking back on his life with regret in some way, only to find that what we were really seeing was the dream of a young man looking forward with regret to the life that he could possibly have. We really wanted Blackthorne’s choice at the end of this show, from the very beginning, to be about a denial of this path. To turn towards a new identity, a new life. There’s a very famous portion of the book where Blackthorne proposes seppuku, and that’s a moment that carries a lot of weight. But it occurs earlier in the book, and we didn’t feel like it was earned, so we kicked it down the line to where it carried more weight. That began to be the Rosetta stone that allowed us to open up Blackthorne throughout the season.

Shōgun’s Ambiguous Ending, Explained by Its Creators

Toranaga and Blackthorne turn toward a new life—and a new world.

slate.com

That's more ambiguous than the episode...even Torinaga says Blackthorn never leaves Japan

And if those were his sons, why are they still kids?

 

[Tenacious E]

That's more ambiguous than the episode...even Torinaga says Blackthorn never leaves Japan

And if those were his sons, why are they still kids?

I'm not here to defend the show - it was confusing to me as well. I thought he was on his deathbed looking back at life, and also thought it was a mistake in the show for him to still have Mariko's cross. But apparently he was imagining himself old on his deathbed, married to Mariko with I guess grandkids? Or maybe his kids grafted on to a life with Mariko? I have no idea.

 

[fsu1jreed]

I'm not here to defend the show - it was confusing to me as well. I thought he was on his deathbed looking back at life, and also thought it was a mistake in the show for him to still have Mariko's cross. But apparently he was imagining himself old on his deathbed, married to Mariko with I guess grandkids? Or maybe his kids grafted on to a life with Mariko? I have no idea.

So, a dream sequence like I said

 

[Tenacious E]

So, a dream sequence like I said

You spelled "Him in bed in England...he never left Japan" wrong.

 

[fsu1jreed]

You spelled "Him in bed in England...he never left Japan" wrong.

Just going of the furniture in the room and the two white kids... definitely wasn't a Japanese house

 

[TennNole17]

Can we all agree it was confusing and not in line with previous episodes?

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Can we all agree it was confusing and not in line with previous episodes?

My wife and I were confused by that and listened to the podcast episode on Hulu right after.

Basically they are saying that the bit about him dying in England was a selfish dream he had that he gave up upon in the last episode.

 

[Tenacious E]

Just going of the furniture in the room and the two white kids... definitely wasn't a Japanese house

Not sure what that has to do with a claim that be never left England in the first instance. Especially, since he was grasping Mariko’s cross.

 

[fsu1jreed]

Not sure what that has to do with a claim that be never left England in the first instance. Especially, since he was grasping Mariko’s cross.

I said he never left Japan, he died there... therefore the dream sequence was him dying in bed in England

 

[Tenacious E]

I said he never left Japan, he died there... therefore the dream sequence was him dying in bed in England

My bad, you are right and I read your post wrong. In any event, not a great hallmark of good story telling when everyone (book readers included) is this confused.

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

That's more ambiguous than the episode...even Torinaga says Blackthorn never leaves Japan

And if those were his sons, why are they still kids?

Could be grandkids...didn't he already have a couple kids and a wife in England? Thought he mentioned that in the second episode or so...

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Can we all agree it was confusing and not in line with previous episodes?

This. Crammed way too much stuff into one episode.

 

[Tenacious E]

Could be grandkids...didn't he already have a couple kids and a wife in England? Thought he mentioned that in the second episode or so...

Dream of a dream. He was dreaming of himself being back in England on his deathbed, with his family. He apparently gave up on that dream and started living his life in Japan accepting that a return to England was not happening.

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Dream of a dream. He was dreaming of himself being back in England on his deathbed, with his family. He apparently gave up on that dream and started living his life in Japan accepting that a return to England was not happening.

Makes sense.

Looked it up and this is what I got fwiw.

Is John Blackthorne married?


During the occupation he married an unknown woman named either Mary or Elizabeth Hun in the parist church of St. Dunstan's, Stepney on August 20 1589 and they had two children: a son named Tudor Blackthorne and a daughter named Deliverance Blackthorne.

 

[Rifler]

Could be grandkids...didn't he already have a couple kids and a wife in England? Thought he mentioned that in the second episode or so...

I think he mentioned his wife being pregnant when he left England..

 

[torbee]

Pretty good review of the finale. Points out that the real climax of the series was the death of Mariko so this episode was more of falling action/epilogue really.

Shōgun finale: Life is but "A Dream Of A Dream"

Shōgun finale: Life is but "A Dream Of A Dream"

www.avclub.com

 

[Tenacious E]

Pretty good review of the finale. Points out that the real climax of the series was the death of Mariko so this episode was more of falling action/epilogue really.

Shōgun finale: Life is but "A Dream Of A Dream"

Shōgun finale: Life is but "A Dream Of A Dream"

www.avclub.com

In that respect, it was very GOTesque where the penultimate episode of each season was typically the climax of the season.

 

[seminole97]

 

[mnole03]

and a daughter named Deliverance Blackthorne.

She for sure has an OnlyFans.

 

[BlIIlken2]

I thought the last episode was solid enough. They explained and tied things up nicely. I can 100% see why people would’ve disliked it however. It was very dialogue heavy, which to me was fine after an amazing series run.

 

[B1GDeal]

Haven't read the books this is based on, but I've seen that the series to include the finale follow the books very very closely. The end is left sorta open for the readers/viewers to interpret the ending. But, seems to me that all along he wanted to return to England and that he was dreaming of him having returned and being an old man remembering his love of Mariko, but in reality he never left Japan. They could have fleshed this out more but probably didn't for time sake to wrap it up in 10 episodes. Probably could have made this 12 to dill in the details more, but I am guessing they just didn't have the budget. Remember, this is a one off FX series... not HBO where it would have had far more resources to do this. I think this was a totally unexpected smash for FX.

 

[StonesCat]

As somebody who loved the original series, the finales are pretty similar. There was no money problem, the whole point of the series was the character interaction, if you were looking for battles and hadn't figured out by the last episode that there wouldn't be any, that's kind of a you problem. The FX series downplayed Blackthorne in favor of the Japanese characters versus the 1980 one, I enjoyed both perspectives as it turned out.

 

[TennNole17]

I wasn’t expecting a battle of bastards battle thing. It just felt like once Mariko died, the show died? The choices made in the last episode just weren’t great (to me)- never read the books or saw first series