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Should Supreme Court disqualify Trump from running? First Lawsuit Filed

cigaretteman

HR King
May 29, 2001
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In the aftermath of the Civil War, the Constitution was amended to disqualify from office those political leaders who had betrayed their oath and "engaged in insurrection or rebellion" against the United States.

Many historians believed that provision — Section 3 of the 14th Amendment — became a dead letter after Congress adopted amnesty acts for ex-Confederates in 1872 and 1898. The latter declared the "disability imposed" by Section 3 "is hereby removed."

But some law professors who have delved deeply into the history of that era say that view is wrong.

"Despite its long slumber, Section 3 ... is alive and in force,” and it could have a major impact on next year's election, argue law professors William Baude of the University of Chicago and Michael Stokes Paulsen of the University of St. Thomas, both well-regarded conservatives.

In a 126-page law review posted last month, they put a new focus on the Constitution's response to the nation's greatest insurrection and significantly raised the odds that the Supreme Court will be confronted with the claim that former President Trump, the Republican front-runner for 2024, is legally disqualified from holding office.



Baude and Paulsen are originalists who believe the Constitution's terms should be interpreted in line with how they were understood at the time of their adoption. They say the word "insurrection" was understood to refer broadly to the concerted use of force or pressure to obstruct or overthrow the authority of the government.

"It sweeps in a broad range of conduct attacking the authority of the United States," they wrote.

They also argue that enforcement of the disqualification clause does not depend on Congress or the Justice Department. Instead, they say this power rests with the hundreds of state, county or federal officials who can determine whether a candidate is eligible to hold an office and whose name may appear on the ballot.

"Taking Section 3 seriously means that its constitutional disqualifications from future state and federal office holding extend to participants in the attempted overturning of the presidential election of 2020, including former President Donald Trump and others," they say. Their argument could extend to challenging senators who offered support for the Jan. 6 insurrectionists.

Because of the sheer number of state attorneys and election officials, its likely in the year ahead that there will be a challenge to Trump's eligibility. And if so, it would not take long for a such a claim to be appealed, first to a federal court and not long after, to the Supreme Court.

The justices are not likely to rule on such a claim if they can avoid doing so. They may have little choice, however, if a federal judge or a state supreme court were to decide Trump was ineligible to hold office in the future and cannot appear on the ballot.









Washington attorney Adam Unikowsky, a former Supreme Court clerk for Justice Antonin Scalia, wrote a lengthy analysis last week on how such a claim may fare in the courts. He said judges, if faced with the question, would be hard pressed to explain why Trump's actions do not qualify as engaging in an insurrection.

"Is the Supreme Court actually going to disqualify Trump? In my opinion, probably not, but there’s a non-trivial chance that it will," he wrote. "In my view, contingent on Trump continuing to be a candidate for President, there is a 10% chance that the Supreme Court will hold, prior to the 2024 election, that Trump is constitutionally ineligible."

Rep. Adam B. Schiff (D-Burbank), who led a House impeachment of Trump, agreed the former president should be disqualified by law.

“I think it is a valid argument,” he said Sunday on MSNBC. “The 14th Amendment, Sec. 3, is pretty clear: If you engage in acts of insurrection or rebellion against the government or you give aid and comfort to those who do, you are disqualified from running. It doesn’t require that you be convicted of insurrection, it just requires that you have engaged in these acts."

The outcome depends on the high court, he said.

"I think this will be tested when [a state] secretary of state either refuses to put him on the ballot or puts him on the ballot and is challenged by a litigant. I would imagine it will go up to the Supreme Court, and that’s the big question mark through all of this, which is: What will the Supreme Court do?”

Other legal experts question the notion that judges could deprive millions of voters their right to choose their favored candidate.

Stanford Law professor Michael McConnell is a conservative and a friend of Baude and Paulsen, but said he strongly disagrees with them on this issue.

He said Congress could have — and should have — disqualified Trump from further office by convicting him after his second impeachment trial in February 2021 for inciting an insurrection. But it takes a two-thirds vote of the Senate to convict, and all but seven of the Republicans voted to acquit Trump. The vote was 57-43 in favor of conviction.

McConnell also said the Justice Department under the Biden administration could have charged Trump with inciting an insurrection, but did not do so. A federal law (18 U.S.C. 2383) make it a crime to incite, assist or engage in insurrection, but special counsel Jack Smith instead charged Trump with obstructing an official proceeding and defrauding the United States.

The special counsel may have thought it would be hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump intended his followers to use force and violence to break into the Capitol rather than to protest outside.

McConnell said it is "significant that the Department of Justice has prosecuted hundreds of persons for their involvement in the January 6 incursion at the Capitol, but has not charged anyone, including Trump, with insurrection under this or any other statute."

He also believes it would be a mistake to entrust state officials with deciding who is eligible to run for president.

"We are talking about empowering partisan politicians such as state secretaries of state to disqualify their political opponents from the ballot, depriving voters of the ability to elect candidates of their choice," he said. "If abused, this is profoundly anti-democratic."

However, Baude and Paulsen believe the Constitution is clear and Trump violated it.

"January 6 was an insurrection," they wrote. "There is abundant evidence that Trump deliberately set out to overturn the result of the 2020 presidential election result, calling it 'stolen' and 'rigged'"; and that he tried to enlist state officials to change the vote count and urged state legislators to support him despite his loss.

When that effort failed, they wrote, "Trump assembled a large crowd to march on the Capitol and intimidate Congress and the Vice President into complying with his wishes and thereby prevent the official counting of the votes of electors confirming Trump’s defeat."

"The bottom line is that Donald Trump both 'engaged in insurrection or rebellion' and gave 'aid or comfort' to others engaging in such conduct... He is no longer eligible to the office of Presidency, or any other state or federal office covered by the Constitution. All who are committed to the Constitution should take note and say so."

This story originally appeared in Los Angeles Times.
 
The SCOTUS would only rule on this if a lower court has already made a determination. That might be a civil proceeding or criminal trial.
 
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The SCOTUS would only rule on this if a lower court has already made a determination. That might be a civil proceeding or criminal trial.
...in each case, requiring someone to actually have standing to have pursued a claim based on a proposed ballot exclusion. (Note, for example, I have some doubt whether a court - particularly a federal court - that convicts him of a criminal offense would "take the next step" and include a ballot exclusion as part of the criminal sentence, or whether that would stand up (particularly if a state court). IMO, you'd likely need some sort of collateral proceeding.)
 
A liberal group on Wednesday filed a lawsuit to bar former President Donald Trump from the primary ballot in Colorado, arguing he is ineligible to run for the White House again under a rarely used clause in the U.S. Constitution aimed at candidates who have supported an “insurrection.”
The lawsuit, citing the 14th Amendment, is likely the initial step in a legal challenge that seems destined for the U.S. Supreme Court. The complaint was filed on behalf of six Republican and unaffiliated Colorado voters by the group Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington.
It will jolt an already unsettled 2024 primary campaign that features the leading Republican candidate facing four separate criminal cases.





FILE - Rioters loyal to President Donald Trump at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, in Washington. Liberal groups are trying to end Trump's attempt to return to the White House by arguing that he is no longer eligible to be president after trying to overturn the 2020 election results. (AP Photo/Julio Cortez, File)
Julio Cortez
Liberal groups have demanded that states’ top election officials bar Trump under the clause that prohibits those who “engaged in an insurrection or rebellion” against the Constitution from holding higher office. None has taken that step, looking for guidance from the courts on how to interpret a clause that has only been used a handful of times since the 1860s.

People are also reading…​






While a few fringe figures have filed thinly written lawsuits in a few states citing the clause, the litigation Wednesday was the first by an organization with significant legal resources. It may lead to similar challenges in other states, holding out the potential for conflicting rulings that would require the Supreme Court to settle.
Colorado’s secretary of state, Democrat Jena Griswold, said in a statement that she hoped “this case will provide guidance to election officials on Trump’s eligibility as a candidate for office.”

The lawsuit contends the case is clear, given the attempt by then-President Trump to overturn his 2020 election loss to Democrat Joe Biden and his support for the assault of the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021. The Republican has said he did nothing wrong in his actions.

The 14th Amendment, ratified in 1868, helped ensure civil rights for freed slaves — and eventually for all people in the United States. But it also was used to prevent former Confederate officials from becoming members of Congress after the Civil War and taking over the government against which they had just rebelled.


The clause cited in the lawsuit allows Congress to lift the ban, which it did in 1872 as the political will to continue to bar former Confederates dwindled. The provision was almost never used after that.

The clause cites “presidential electors” but not presidents themselves as being disqualified if they previously swore an oath to uphold the Constitution and then broke it.
In its complaint, Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington asked the court to expedite the matter so it can be resolved before the state's primary ballot is set on Jan. 5 2024.
A Trump spokesman did not immediately respond to a request for comment on the suit.

 
A liberal group on Wednesday filed a lawsuit to bar former President Donald Trump from the primary ballot in Colorado, arguing he is ineligible to run for the White House again under a rarely used clause in the U.S. Constitution aimed at candidates who have supported an “insurrection.”
The lawsuit, citing the 14th Amendment, is likely the initial step in a legal challenge that seems destined for the U.S. Supreme Court. The complaint was filed on behalf of six Republican and unaffiliated Colorado voters by the group Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington.
It will jolt an already unsettled 2024 primary campaign that features the leading Republican candidate facing four separate criminal cases.





FILE - Rioters loyal to President Donald Trump at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, in Washington. Liberal groups are trying to end Trump's attempt to return to the White House by arguing that he is no longer eligible to be president after trying to overturn the 2020 election results. (AP Photo/Julio Cortez, File)
Julio Cortez
Liberal groups have demanded that states’ top election officials bar Trump under the clause that prohibits those who “engaged in an insurrection or rebellion” against the Constitution from holding higher office. None has taken that step, looking for guidance from the courts on how to interpret a clause that has only been used a handful of times since the 1860s.

People are also reading…​






While a few fringe figures have filed thinly written lawsuits in a few states citing the clause, the litigation Wednesday was the first by an organization with significant legal resources. It may lead to similar challenges in other states, holding out the potential for conflicting rulings that would require the Supreme Court to settle.
Colorado’s secretary of state, Democrat Jena Griswold, said in a statement that she hoped “this case will provide guidance to election officials on Trump’s eligibility as a candidate for office.”

The lawsuit contends the case is clear, given the attempt by then-President Trump to overturn his 2020 election loss to Democrat Joe Biden and his support for the assault of the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021. The Republican has said he did nothing wrong in his actions.

The 14th Amendment, ratified in 1868, helped ensure civil rights for freed slaves — and eventually for all people in the United States. But it also was used to prevent former Confederate officials from becoming members of Congress after the Civil War and taking over the government against which they had just rebelled.


The clause cited in the lawsuit allows Congress to lift the ban, which it did in 1872 as the political will to continue to bar former Confederates dwindled. The provision was almost never used after that.

The clause cites “presidential electors” but not presidents themselves as being disqualified if they previously swore an oath to uphold the Constitution and then broke it.
In its complaint, Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington asked the court to expedite the matter so it can be resolved before the state's primary ballot is set on Jan. 5 2024.
A Trump spokesman did not immediately respond to a request for comment on the suit.

As noted, I have my doubts as to standing and some other procedural defenses. I also have my doubts whether the Colorado officials will 'defend' the suit, and thus, it is highly likely that representatives of the trump campaign will move to intervene on the side of the putative defendant state.

BTW, cigman, your timing is impeccable. :)
 
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As noted, I have my doubts as to standing and some other procedural defenses. I also have my doubts whether the Colorado officials will 'defend' the suit, and thus, it is highly likely that representatives of the trump campaign will move to intervene on the side of the putative defendant state.

BTW, cigman, your timing is impeccable. :)
I have doubts as to standing as well, but this Supreme Court is willing to simply
Manufacture standing when they want to do it shouldn’t be an issue.
 
I have doubts as to standing as well, but this Supreme Court is willing to simply
Manufacture standing when they want to do it shouldn’t be an issue.
You think Scotus will manufacture standing to allow a private party to sue to eliminate a presidential candidate - this presidential candidate - from the ballot (if it ever gets there)?

BTW, here's a plausible, though probably not probable, outcome I could foresee, though it would be terrible process for everyone. I could easily see courts/the Court holding that a private party has no standing to bring a claim to require a state official to exclude a candidate from the ballot, and that in light of the language of section 3, it is ultimately for Congress itself (eg, in counting of electoral votes) to determine whether a candidate is elected/electable or not. (On the other hand, if a state official just did so on their own, I would expect that a candidate could certainly challenge that action.)

Also BTW, while I know legal interpretations are a dime a dozen, having finally taken a look at section 3, I don't think this is nearly the slam dunk as people are imagining it to be, on many levels, and may even be dramatically wishful thinking.
 
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Lol lefties everywhere prepping now for disappointment. This legitimately seems like a set up for democrats to declare that scotus is invalid when they'd don't get the ruling they want so they can rampage.
 
...in each case, requiring someone to actually have standing to have pursued a claim based on a proposed ballot exclusion. (Note, for example, I have some doubt whether a court - particularly a federal court - that convicts him of a criminal offense would "take the next step" and include a ballot exclusion as part of the criminal sentence, or whether that would stand up (particularly if a state court). IMO, you'd likely need some sort of collateral proceeding.)
If Trump is convicted of Sedition, that would definitely open the door for individual state election officials to exclude him from a ballot. That would obviously open the door for a lawsuit by Trump, and possible the RNC.

If Trump is convicted of Sedition, it's also possible the Judge might give him options when it comes to sentencing, such as not running for a federal office in exchange for no jail time. I'm not sure how much discretion there is under federal sentencing guidelines. No doubt Trump would appeal any conviction, and there would be an immediate question of Trump being able to postpone serving a sentence pending appeal.

There is news of at least a dozen states, red and blue, are looking into the legal questions in anticipation of lawsuits being filed to exclude Trump from state ballots. Since states administer elections, we can assume the lawsuits would first be filed in state courts, but how many states have election laws that actually address the issue of sedition? If the basis is 14A, the question of jurisdiction then has to be addressed. If it goes to a US District Court, then jurisdiction and standing are issues. That might become the first SCOTUS involvement, but they would undoubtedly return the case to a lower court after that.

IMO, it really has to start with a conviction for sedition.
 
Lol lefties everywhere prepping now for disappointment. This legitimately seems like a set up for democrats to declare that scotus is invalid when they'd don't get the ruling they want so they can rampage.
Curious to what ruling you think lefites will want? Trump can run / Trump cannot run? We've heard on here the lefties plot for both outcomes.
 
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If Trump is convicted of Sedition, that would definitely open the door for individual state election officials to exclude him from a ballot. That would obviously open the door for a lawsuit by Trump, and possible the RNC.

If Trump is convicted of Sedition, it's also possible the Judge might give him options when it comes to sentencing, such as not running for a federal office in exchange for no jail time. I'm not sure how much discretion there is under federal sentencing guidelines. No doubt Trump would appeal any conviction, and there would be an immediate question of Trump being able to postpone serving a sentence pending appeal.

There is news of at least a dozen states, red and blue, are looking into the legal questions in anticipation of lawsuits being filed to exclude Trump from state ballots. Since states administer elections, we can assume the lawsuits would first be filed in state courts, but how many states have election laws that actually address the issue of sedition? If the basis is 14A, the question of jurisdiction then has to be addressed. If it goes to a US District Court, then jurisdiction and standing are issues. That might become the first SCOTUS involvement, but they would undoubtedly return the case to a lower court after that.

IMO, it really has to start with a conviction for sedition.
Has he even been charged with that? (Honestly, believe it or not, I really haven't been paying that much attention to this whole charade and don't know.)
 
Curious to what ruling you think lefites will want? Trump can run / Trump cannot run? We've heard on here the lefties plot for both outcomes.
I suspect board 'lefties' do not want him to run. I think 'lefty' party insiders want nothing more than for him to run.
 
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If Trump is convicted of Sedition, that would definitely open the door for individual state election officials to exclude him from a ballot. That would obviously open the door for a lawsuit by Trump, and possible the RNC.

If Trump is convicted of Sedition, it's also possible the Judge might give him options when it comes to sentencing, such as not running for a federal office in exchange for no jail time. I'm not sure how much discretion there is under federal sentencing guidelines. No doubt Trump would appeal any conviction, and there would be an immediate question of Trump being able to postpone serving a sentence pending appeal.

There is news of at least a dozen states, red and blue, are looking into the legal questions in anticipation of lawsuits being filed to exclude Trump from state ballots. Since states administer elections, we can assume the lawsuits would first be filed in state courts, but how many states have election laws that actually address the issue of sedition? If the basis is 14A, the question of jurisdiction then has to be addressed. If it goes to a US District Court, then jurisdiction and standing are issues. That might become the first SCOTUS involvement, but they would undoubtedly return the case to a lower court after that.

IMO, it really has to start with a conviction for sedition.
To my prior email, I'm honestly not sure the clause even applies if he were so convicted (though of course there are certain practical realities of getting elected, let alone running the country, from a federal penitentiary). The introductory language of the clause provides "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state". Curiously, it doesn't apply to a presidential candidate him/herself, though it applies to 'electors' (which is probably another MAJOR due diligence project in the next election cycle). It does apply to one who would "hold any office." I don't know if I'd bet my house on it, but I'd probably bet my Pinarello Prince, that the court would construe "officers" -- consistent with the use of that term in other aspects of the constitution such as the appointments clause - to basically mean persons subject to Senate confirmation (on which there is a fair bit of case law, both existing and emerging). Now as I said, I've not dug into this much, and I'm sure the law professors have some cogent responses to that textual argument.

At the end of the day, it may be that Congress still holds the ultimate cards here in their ability to recognize electors.
 
To my prior email, I'm honestly not sure the clause even applies if he were so convicted (though of course there are certain practical realities of getting elected, let alone running the country, from a federal penitentiary). The introductory language of the clause provides "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state". Curiously, it doesn't apply to a presidential candidate him/herself, though it applies to 'electors' (which is probably another MAJOR due diligence project in the next election cycle). It does apply to one who would "hold any office." I don't know if I'd bet my house on it, but I'd probably bet my Pinarello Prince, that the court would construe "officers" -- consistent with the use of that term in other aspects of the constitution such as the appointments clause - to basically mean persons subject to Senate confirmation (on which there is a fair bit of case law, both existing and emerging). Now as I said, I've not dug into this much, and I'm sure the law professors have some cogent responses to that textual argument.

At the end of the day, it may be that Congress still holds the ultimate cards here in their ability to recognize electors.
Speaking only for my Libertarian self, I hope Trump isn't on the ballot in Florida, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. He can't win without carrying those states. Trump is a cancer on the country, and I'm more interested in him being out of the picture entirely than the political strategy of having a candidate that Biden might be able to beat.
 
Speaking only for my Libertarian self, I hope Trump isn't on the ballot in Florida, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. He can't win without carrying those states. Trump is a cancer on the country, and I'm more interested in him being out of the picture entirely than the political strategy of having a candidate that Biden might be able to beat.
Likewise, for the primary reason you note, and in the hope that moving on from him might actually enable civil engagement on issues. But man, every small-d democratic bone in my body screams out that elimination of a candidate (any candidate) from the ballot is most decidedly not a step to be taken even remotely lightly.
 
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Likewise, for the primary reason you note, and in the hope that moving on from him might actually enable engagement on issues. But man, every small-d democratic bone in my body screams out that elimination of a candidate (any candidate) from the ballot is most decidedly not a step to be taken even remotely lightly.
Agree that it's something that should be more legal than having the slightest appearance of being political.
 
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Speaking only for my Libertarian self, I hope Trump isn't on the ballot in Florida, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. He can't win without carrying those states. Trump is a cancer on the country, and I'm more interested in him being out of the picture entirely than the political strategy of having a candidate that Biden might be able to beat.
You mean your Republican self. Libertarians don't seem to be an actual thing.
 
To my prior email, I'm honestly not sure the clause even applies if he were so convicted (though of course there are certain practical realities of getting elected, let alone running the country, from a federal penitentiary). The introductory language of the clause provides "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state". Curiously, it doesn't apply to a presidential candidate him/herself, though it applies to 'electors' (which is probably another MAJOR due diligence project in the next election cycle). It does apply to one who would "hold any office." I don't know if I'd bet my house on it, but I'd probably bet my Pinarello Prince, that the court would construe "officers" -- consistent with the use of that term in other aspects of the constitution such as the appointments clause - to basically mean persons subject to Senate confirmation (on which there is a fair bit of case law, both existing and emerging). Now as I said, I've not dug into this much, and I'm sure the law professors have some cogent responses to that textual argument.

At the end of the day, it may be that Congress still holds the ultimate cards here in their ability to recognize electors.
Here's an interesting law review article by Will Baude and Michael Stokes Paulsen, both very principled conservative scholars. I was a bit surprised that they reached the conclusions they did, but it is well argued. They argue section 3 is self-executing and can be enforced by various federal and state judges and officials and that it applies to Trump's post election conduct. Interesting read if you have the time (126 pages long).
 
Here's an interesting law review article by Will Baude and Michael Stokes Paulsen, both very principled conservative scholars. I was a bit surprised that they reached the conclusions they did, but it is well argued. They argue section 3 is self-executing and can be enforced by various federal and state judges and officials and that it applies to Trump's post election conduct. Interesting read if you have the time (126 pages long).
Thx. Saw the link on volokh. I’m not sure that I find the “self executing” part to be that remarkable or insightful. Whether true or not, someone has to make certain determinations (so it’s not really self executing), and as is often the case in our system, the question is “who decides?” But either way, I am curious to read their take on “officers”.
 
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Thx. Saw the link on volokh. I’m not sure that I find the “self executing” part to be that remarkable or insightful. Whether true or not, someone has to make certain determinations (so it’s not really self executing), and as is often the case in our system, the question is “who decides?” But either way, I am curious to read their take on “officers”.
Starts at page 104. Here's a good overview of the view they're arguing against. I'm not sure which position I find more convincing. But it does seem strange that only the president and VP would be immune to section 3.
 
Yeah, anything other than liberal Dem must be GOP in your tiny little world. :rolleyes:
I live in a big world. And all the Ls I've known voted R. I've asked in other threads but how does the L philosophy even work? How can one be fiscally conservative but socially liberal? How do all the social programs get paid for?
 
Starts at page 104. Here's a good overview of the view they're arguing against. I'm not sure which position I find more convincing. But it does seem strange that only the president and VP would be immune to section 3.
I'll look at this, but I suppose at least part of the argument is that unlike other "officers," he's actually popularly elected by the entirety of the national population. As I said earlier, there is actually a point where popular action mattered to the founders. After all, through the lens of English history, that Cromwell fellow sorta participated in a conflict which some would call an insurrection of sorts, but ended up achieving some higher office.
 
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If Trump can be disqualified without due process can't Republicans do the same to Biden? Seems kind of dumb to not wait for at least one conviction to drop.
 
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If Trump can be disqualified without due process can't Republicans do the same to Biden? Seems kind of dumb to not wait for at least one conviction to drop.
One can debate about whether he is or is not receiving due process, but your underlying point about the dangers of double-edged swords (and bending over backwards to forge them) is extraordinarily important regardless of one's politics.
 
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I live in a big world. And all the Ls I've known voted R. I've asked in other threads but how does the L philosophy even work? How can one be fiscally conservative but socially liberal? How do all the social programs get paid for?
Socially liberal doesn't always mean giving money away. There are a lot of GOP positions that intrude on personal freedom.
 
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Socially liberal doesn't always mean giving money away. There are a lot of GOP positions that intrude on personal freedom.
Then why do libertarians vote Republican? Abortion, gay marriage, even freedom of religion. Rs constantly stomp on this stuff.

I'm also baffled by the fiscally conservative angle. Rs spend just as much as the Dems.
 
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Starts at page 104. Here's a good overview of the view they're arguing against. I'm not sure which position I find more convincing. But it does seem strange that only the president and VP would be immune to section 3.
So I took a look at the article. Frankly, I find the textual omission of president to be somewhat more telling than their overall structural argument and all of the prepositional navel-gazing. But with that said, the legislative history they cite seems very strong - perhaps because it’s from a time when actual legislative debate occurred rather than todays kabuki.
 
No, I don’t even know the arguments but it’s a bad idea to try to prevent him from running. The a.m. talk radio nutters are all over this and it just gives credence to the argument that people are scared of Trump and want him off the ballot.

I say let him run and lose big.
 
Then why do libertarians vote Republican? Abortion, gay marriage, even freedom of religion. Rs constantly stomp on this stuff.

I'm also baffled by the fiscally conservative angle. Rs spend just as much as the Dems.
I voted for Jo (not Joe) in 2020.

Many Libertarians vote GOP because the GOP tends to be more fiscally sane, and has less government regulations overall. When faced with the choice, it's simply weighing the pros and cons of each side.

The current GOP is not fiscally conservative.

Oh, you don't seem to understand the difference between freedom of religion and freedom from religion, federalism, etc. If you truly pay attention to my posts, you'll see that I'm equal opportunity when it comes to hating both sides. You seem to be nearly elite at only seeing the bits and pieces you want to see. If you want to be elite at cherry picking, you'll have to study how Joes Place does it. He's elite.

FWIW, I officiated a lesbian wedding 3 years ago. Sorry, no pics.
 
I voted for Jo (not Joe) in 2020.

Many Libertarians vote GOP because the GOP tends to be more fiscally sane, and has less government regulations overall. When faced with the choice, it's simply weighing the pros and cons of each side.

The current GOP is not fiscally conservative.

Oh, you don't seem to understand the difference between freedom of religion and freedom from religion, federalism, etc. If you truly pay attention to my posts, you'll see that I'm equal opportunity when it comes to hating both sides. You seem to be nearly elite at only seeing the bits and pieces you want to see. If you want to be elite at cherry picking, you'll have to study how Joes Place does it. He's elite.

FWIW, I officiated a lesbian wedding 3 years ago. Sorry, no pics.
What in the fvck are you talking about, fiscally sane? Deficits balloon everytime the Rs are in charge. And wtf are you talking about less regulation? Have you not paid attention to all the education regulations, book banning, and abortion banning the Rs have engaged in? You're just making shit up now
 
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And I'm sorry but go eat yourself with your fake LGBTQ support, Finance. You can't dump on part of us but call it all good because you went to a lesbian wedding once
 
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What in the fvck are you talking about, fiscally sane? Deficits balloon everytime the Rs are in charge. And wtf are you talking about less regulation? Have you not paid attention to all the education regulations, book banning, and abortion banning the Rs have engaged in? You're just making shit up now
Actually you are going back and forth between US regulations and state regulations. Yes, the GOP has had deficit spending. I already addressed that. It's always worse when Dems are in control.
 
Actually you are going back and forth between US regulations and state regulations. Yes, the GOP has had deficit spending. I already addressed that. It's always worse when Dems are in control.
Reagan blew up the deficit. Clinton dropped the deficit to zero. Then Bush jacked it right up again. And Obama shrank it again. And then Trump blew it back up again. You're not assigning blame to the right party here
 
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