Would you agree that we HAVE done things a little differently? It's a process and we're just beginning to see the fruits of that labor. Wrestling a kid "just because" or to prove a point isn't a sound strategy, imo.
Spencer Interview
- Thread starter west2east
- Start date
So, at the Saturday practices, has Lee been working out with the rest of the guys? Same question re: Sam Stoll. Is he out there practicing? Would seem to be a pretty good indication as to where those guys are in their rehabs.
The only one I can think of is Metcalf. But, obviously that was it's own situation. Clark was probably ready to go as well, but didn't have a spot for him in the lineup.
In the interview Lee stated he will be cleared by the Dr on Monday for a separate issue (i.e. the knee is not the current holdup).
If Lee IS healthy he is willing and ready. All I hear on this board is that we need multiple top ten p4p guys every year, well most of them don't want to go to a place they know they will have to RS there first year. This may not be true but it's the reputation Iowa has now. Best of the best wanna compete right away and unless we show that's a possibility at Iowa they will continue to go elsewhere.
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Not saying anyone should have in past years. Just saying top talent is D1 ready right away and many of them want to compete. Iowa needs to show a willingness to do that or top talent will continue to go elsewhere.
And in all these years Brands is the only coach that hasn't had a true freshman that is ready/willing?
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So your position is that Iowa should wrestle guys simply just to wrestle them. Regardless of what's best for them or the team. Gotcha.
Not wrestling a healthy #1 recruit when ur team has a whole at that weight is bad for the team and recruiting. Top p4p will look at Iowa and say man not even Spencer Lee could make he lineup as a TF when healthy, I don't want to RS so I should look at other schools. THIS HAPPENS! It is a contributing factor to why Iowa is struggling to land multiple top guys every year. It also could be bad for the individual if they later get hurt and dont have the RS to burn.
If Lee is fully recovered and stays redshirts then you have a very valid argument. However, Brands has had options in the past and enough depth to have a very capable wrestler man the spot when we have a stud true freshman in waiting.
I don't think you make a blanket statement that Brands refuses to pull shirts without truly examining why he hasn't. He pulled Burak's but many discount that because of his year at OTC. I don't. He could've redshirted Burak but he pulled it.
So he is almost all the way back from the knee injury and his setback was a surgery (hernia?), but will be cleared on Monday?
so not clear on the rule regarding the shirt, so lets say this is the scenario. Spencer only wrestles in opens and midlands (unattached) and then they decide to pull the shirt, does he still have the option of shirting later on in his career or is that gone since he technically was redshirting prior to it being pulled.
It can only be pulled once regardless of duration. The Iowa QB is a good example...his shirt got pulled at the end of last season and I think he only played one game. He's a Sophomore this year because the one game cost him a year of eligibility. Of course there's always extenuating circumstances, but that's the general rule.
We generally have not had true freshmen that were ready to place top 4.
Gilman and Clark were both ready but were behind McDonough.
Sorensen went 24-4 as a true freshman and beat Grothus at Midlands, but he wasn't a big upgrade over Grothus (who failed to place), and it's good that we didn't pull his shirt because we need him now.
Kemerer was ready but was behind Sorensen. Not sure he was big enough for 157, and although Cooper failed to place, I'm glad we didn't pull his shirt.
Marinelli was almost ready but not a huge upgrade over Gunther. I think we'll need him in the future too.
Burak, the only Iowa guy under Brands who DID have his shirt pulled, went 20-17 and failed to place as a true freshman...and it would've been nice to have him last year.
All that points to the fact that it's generally a good idea to redshirt freshmen.
The case for pulling Lee's redshirt is more compelling. He has the talent to place top 3...and he's a huge upgrade over Perez...and his 15-20 points will mean the difference between 3rd and 6th in the team race (assuming Downey competes). I completely get why we wouldn't pull his shirt, but it's at least a "Hmmm...."
Gilman and Clark were both ready but were behind McDonough.
Sorensen went 24-4 as a true freshman and beat Grothus at Midlands, but he wasn't a big upgrade over Grothus (who failed to place), and it's good that we didn't pull his shirt because we need him now.
Kemerer was ready but was behind Sorensen. Not sure he was big enough for 157, and although Cooper failed to place, I'm glad we didn't pull his shirt.
Marinelli was almost ready but not a huge upgrade over Gunther. I think we'll need him in the future too.
Burak, the only Iowa guy under Brands who DID have his shirt pulled, went 20-17 and failed to place as a true freshman...and it would've been nice to have him last year.
All that points to the fact that it's generally a good idea to redshirt freshmen.
The case for pulling Lee's redshirt is more compelling. He has the talent to place top 3...and he's a huge upgrade over Perez...and his 15-20 points will mean the difference between 3rd and 6th in the team race (assuming Downey competes). I completely get why we wouldn't pull his shirt, but it's at least a "Hmmm...."
burak also did have a year outside of high school training at Colorado springs before coming to iowa.
Agree with Tarp. We haven't had many that were ready, which is the whole other topic of not recruiting top talent. So, when you have, lets say first top talent, what some are saying is we should show a top recruit that they will wrestle day one at Iowa. Think you could argue both sides but many Top 10 kids aren't planning on sitting anywhere. Also, if your future is international career, some want to get there sooner rather than later.
I don't know what the numbers are but I'd be curious to see what the success of guys that went first year and then had a red shirt year mixed in somewhere. Of the top of my head, I can think of some that is seems wrestling the freshman year and taking next year as a redshirt really helps and others that it seems like their freshman year was one of their best.
I don't know what the numbers are but I'd be curious to see what the success of guys that went first year and then had a red shirt year mixed in somewhere. Of the top of my head, I can think of some that is seems wrestling the freshman year and taking next year as a redshirt really helps and others that it seems like their freshman year was one of their best.
Derek St. John was ready his freshman year, but we had a strong team and didn't need the points. Regardless, Derek was the best option at his weight and likely would have AA'd.
I say if Lee is 100% and he wants to give it a go this year ... then stick him out there ...
Earlier I said there would be some great matches with Spencer so I wanted him to go this year. I really was thinking of Nato and Suriano, but the more I think of it, how fitting would it be for Spencer to beat Cruz? Always been a Lee fan, but strange as it sounds to me, I became a Thomas Gilman fan this summer, especially the way he responded to adversity, and then how he represented the country.
Nothing against Cruz, just don't think he really was better than Gilman and Suriano, and don't see him repeating. Hoping Lee goes.
Nothing against Cruz, just don't think he really was better than Gilman and Suriano, and don't see him repeating. Hoping Lee goes.
Not quite. They don't officially register someone as a redshirt before the season. He can do what was described and still redshirt later. It can get "pulled" literally every year but each year counts against the 4 years of participation.
I realized after I posted that I probably didn't convey my thoughts very clearly. I agree with your explanation.
What difference does it make, a trend is a trend isn't it?
The Programs were clearly in different places and the reasoning might be different, but 0 for your Coaching career is still 0.
It makes a difference because of exactly what you said. And are we positive he didn't put a true frosh on the mat at VT?
And really he's at 1. He could have redshirted Burak but Burak wanted to wrestle and we had a need, so he didn't. No one has been able to come up with a case for another guy while at Iowa.
I will never count Burak as a true freshman who wrestled. He spent his redshirt year at the OTC. That's a hell of a lot of difference from coming straight in from Children of the Ski Slope High.
"No one has been able to come up with a case for another guy while at Iowa" - some teams finishing ahead of us are coming up with cases for it, and I'm certain they had options and plenty of reasons why they shouldn't, and yet................they did it anyway.
And I've already stated I don't want Spencer Lee to wrestle this year, mostly because "on paper" we aren't good enough for his presence to make a difference. Not a good place to be either. That's the reality of our recruiting or lack thereof leading up to 2017 / 2018. It is what it is.
But if you're gonna start wrestling True Freshmen and prove that you'll do it, no time like the present I guess. Maybe that will be the move that turns this thing around.
I think Spencer has a plan. If healthy he goes this year and next. I forsee a Olympic year in 2020. This would allow a guy like Teske wrestle as a rs fresh in 2020. 2021 one or the other would go 33. I've said this for months now, if Lee is healthy he will go this year.
Regardless of what Spencer accomplishes on the mat, he is a great ambassador for Iowa. Go Hawks!
You can call him what you want but the circumstances remain: he could have redshirted but didn't. But he was the best option and the team needed him. Overall, I don't think we completely disagree but I think there should be sound reasoning to put a kid on the mat and I don't think "maybe this will turn things around" is a strong enough one.
If Lee wasn't coming off the ACL I would be beating the drum for him to be on the mat.
We don't completely disagree, and I don't care if it's leprechauns or Bigfoot sightings if it helps change the status quo. Whatever turns it around is fine by me, just so something does.
But...............Sure, what's another 7 years of not sniffing an NCAA Team Title, when there's "sound reasoning" involved.
Yes, sound reasoning should not come into play with any decision, especially as it relates to kids lives and health.
Lee will go if healthy and Spencer and his folks with guidance from staff thinks it makes sense. Of course he will want to go even on 1 leg. Hence the parents and staff input. The decision will be up to Spencer and his folks. There is no RS requirement. Period. I think he goes.
Go ahead and provide me the list of all the ruined lives and injured kids because they wrestled as true freshmen.....
Thanks in advance.
So all the kids at penn state that are top talent aren't gray shirting red shirting OTC and Olympic shirts to make the lineup. Then why do they all keep going there. If Lee is health and big enough let him wrestle if not he gets shirted. Than competes for 4 titles.
