Surprised no thread about John Oliver

[slieb85]

With all the gun talk that has happened on here over the last 5 days, I'm surprised no discussion on the John Oliver feature this week. He hits on some very important points. The prison vs. mental hospital statistics are really sad.

John Oliver - Mental Illness

 

[fredjr82]

With all the gun talk that has happened on here over the last 5 days, I'm surprised no discussion on the John Oliver feature this week. He hits on some very important points. The prison vs. mental hospital statistics are really sad.

John Oliver - Mental Illness

He made some good points. Mental Illness is a tough one for me. It seems every time someone does something horrific it's tagged as mental illness. Most people on trial for something terrible usually plead insanity, and that has really made the whole conversation stagnate in my opinion. While mental illness is something that needs more attention there is way too much gray area surrounding it in order for it to be the primary decision point in the gun control debate.

And for the lazy (like myself )

 

[INXS83]

He made some good points. Mental Illness is a tough one for me. It seems every time someone does something horrific it's tagged as mental illness. Most people on trial for something terrible usually plead insanity, and that has really made the whole conversation stagnate in my opinion. While mental illness is something that needs more attention there is way too much gray area surrounding it in order for it to be the primary decision point in the gun control debate.

And for the lazy (like myself )

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For the sake of public safety, we should be able to get past HIPPA laws and create a database whereby law enforcement can produce and distribute a 'no gun list' for individuals diagnosed as mentally unstable, paranoid schizophrenic. etc. It would be like the 'no fly list' that Homeland Security and the FAA have.

Gun shops, outfitters, Walmart, etc. would have to check to see if a prospective gun buyer was 'on the list' before making a sale to them. If the seller neglects to check the list or decides to sell to them anyway, they become liable for civil suits if the buyer uses the gun in a crime.

It's an idea.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

For the sake of public safety, we should be able to get past HIPPA laws and create a database whereby law enforcement can produce and distribute a 'no gun list' for individuals diagnosed as mentally unstable, paranoid schizophrenic. etc. It would be like the 'no fly list' that Homeland Security and the FAA have.

Gun shops, outfitters, Walmart, etc. would have to check to see if a prospective gun buyer was 'on the list' before making a sale to them. If the seller neglects to check the list or decides to sell to them anyway, they become liable for civil suits if the buyer uses the gun in a crime.

It's an idea.

I would agree, the specifics of their illness don't have to be a given.

However he did point out quite correctly that most mentally ill people are not violent and are more likely to be victims of violent crime then commit them.

The problem is that mentally ill people who do become violent are usually more capable of irrational acts of violence like mass shootings.

 

[slieb85]

I would agree, the specifics of their illness don't have to be a given.

However he did point out quite correctly that most mentally ill people are not violent and are more likely to be victims of violent crime then commit them.

The problem is that mentally ill people who do become violent are usually more capable of irrational acts of violence like mass shootings.

Precisely. This wasn't meant to be solely a discussion about the mentally ill as it pertains to mass shootings. Obviously that's a big part of the discussion, but the bigger one for me is our solution to mental illness, which is our solution to basically every "problem" and that's prison. It's something I've harped on over and over on here (thanks to a great professor who helped open my eyes to this problem) but our society's decision to treat prison as the answer (in no small part thanks to the for profit prisons) has been the impetus for a lot of the problems I see in society. It's truly pathetic how little we care about our citizenry in this country.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Precisely. This wasn't meant to be solely a discussion about the mentally ill as it pertains to mass shootings. Obviously that's a big part of the discussion, but the bigger one for me is our solution to mental illness, which is our solution to basically every "problem" and that's prison. It's something I've harped on over and over on here (thanks to a great professor who helped open my eyes to this problem) but our society's decision to treat prison as the answer (in no small part thanks to the for profit prisons) has been the impetus for a lot of the problems I see in society. It's truly pathetic how little we care about our citizenry in this country.

I fully agree.

All people have a sadistic nature inside of them and of the industrialized nations, the US shows it's sadistic nature the most.

If someone commits a crime instead of asking ourselves how we can rehabilitate them we get excited over the idea that they might be raped and/or beaten in prison.

And then we are surprised that people who have spent an extended period of time in their life in constant fear arn't able to come out and function in our society.

 

[ottumwan in tx]

no, it's just the libs trying to say we are all crazy, especially the vets, so the libs must grab everyones' guns, because they are all crazy. the libs wish to start with returning vets who have ptsd and don't need a gun, then the VA folks, older vets. they are old and crazy and don't need a gun. then comes the average joe, he's nuts, might even vote repubber, he does not need a gun.

 

[ottumwan in tx]

I fully agree.

All people have a sadistic nature inside of them and of the industrialized nations, the US shows it's sadistic nature the most.

If someone commits a crime instead of asking ourselves how we can rehabilitate them we get excited over the idea that they might be raped and/or beaten in prison.

And then we are surprised that people who have spent an extended period of time in their life in constant fear arn't able to come out and function in our society.

see, the usa is nuts. crazy I tell 'ya!! take everyones' guns in the whole usa, please, please!!! I'm hysterical, take guns!!!

 

[INXS83]

I would agree, the specifics of their illness don't have to be a given.

However he did point out quite correctly that most mentally ill people are not violent and are more likely to be victims of violent crime then commit them.

The problem is that mentally ill people who do become violent are usually more capable of irrational acts of violence like mass shootings.

Yes, that's a huge gap. Predicting when someone mentally ill will 'go off the reservation' and commit a violent crime. It's like trying to read what's in someone's heart. Almost impossible without stomping on their civil liberties.

 

[INXS83]

Precisely. This wasn't meant to be solely a discussion about the mentally ill as it pertains to mass shootings. Obviously that's a big part of the discussion, but the bigger one for me is our solution to mental illness, which is our solution to basically every "problem" and that's prison. It's something I've harped on over and over on here (thanks to a great professor who helped open my eyes to this problem) but our society's decision to treat prison as the answer (in no small part thanks to the for profit prisons) has been the impetus for a lot of the problems I see in society. It's truly pathetic how little we care about our citizenry in this country.

We care, but not enough to throw the resources at it to truly 'heal' or rehabilitate people properly. It would take the proverbial liberal 'blank check' policy to fund adequate treatment for millions of Americans. Institutionalizing them is more cleaner and cheaper. Shocking, but reality.

Don't get pissed, but Jesus did say the poor and sick (mentally and physically) will always be with us.

 

[ping72]

Killing a bunch of people isn't a normal desire; I think the vast majority of mass murderers and serial killers almost have to have mental illness.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Killing a bunch of people isn't a normal desire; I think the vast majority of mass murderers and serial killers almost have to have mental illness.

Feel good, false, irrelevant bullshit.

But a lot of people believe this.

 

[MemorialRedWarrior]

For the sake of public safety, we should be able to get past HIPPA laws and create a database whereby law enforcement can produce and distribute a 'no gun list' for individuals diagnosed as mentally unstable, paranoid schizophrenic. etc. It would be like the 'no fly list' that Homeland Security and the FAA have.

Gun shops, outfitters, Walmart, etc. would have to check to see if a prospective gun buyer was 'on the list' before making a sale to them. If the seller neglects to check the list or decides to sell to them anyway, they become liable for civil suits if the buyer uses the gun in a crime.

It's an idea.

Be sure and pass that list to people who may be robbed and the underground sellers as well.
I do not mean to be aggressive with that statement, but for they to work, all access must be cut off.
It only requires one small window of opportunity to navigate around that.

 

[MemorialRedWarrior]

Feel good, false, irrelevant bullshit.

But a lot of people believe this.

I'm not sure what you are leading to with this post. Can you please clarify it? Thank you.

 

[theIowaHawk]

I'm not sure what you are leading to with this post. Can you please clarify it? Thank you.

People want/need to feel good about themselves, need to believe that things happen for a "reason." Especially bad things, which is why "God has a plan for X" when bad things happen.

Believing that acts like this must be because of mental illness, because it isn't "normal" makes them feel better.

Normal people like us wouldn't commit such offenses, therefore something was defective in them.

First, it's bullshit, as the statistics show, but more importantly it's a pointless distinction. Discovering, labeling and treating mental illness is good. Believing that the acts necessitate illness is irrelevant. It just allows for an approach of feel-good and move on. Ted Bundy wasn't insane. Gacy wasn't simply depressed. Neither was the SC shooter. But labeling then thusly disassociates them from the rest of us, and, phew, that makes us all feel normal.

We are descended from barbarians, our ancestors killed as part of their nature. Desire to harm has not disappeared.

But to put it simply:

"That guy be crazy..."

So what? What aspect of this topic is informed by that classification?

 

[MemorialRedWarrior]

People want/need to feel good about themselves, need to believe that things happen for a "reason." Especially bad things, which is why "God has a plan for X" when bad things happen.

Believing that acts like this must be because of mental illness, because it isn't "normal" makes them feel better.

Normal people like us wouldn't commit such offenses, therefore something was defective in them.

First, it's bullshit, as the statistics show, but more importantly it's a pointless distinction. Discovering, labeling and treating mental illness is good. Believing that the acts necessitate illness is irrelevant. It just allows for an approach of feel-good and move on. Ted Bundy wasn't insane. Gacy wasn't simply depressed. Neither was the SC shooter. But labeling then thusly disassociates them from the rest of us, and, phew, that makes us all feel normal.

We are descended from barbarians, our ancestors killed as part of their nature. Desire to harm has not disappeared.

But to put it simply:

"That guy be crazy..."

So what? What aspect of this topic is informed by that classification?

Fair points, and I agree with exactly everything you have stated here.
So does this change our perceptions in how we deal with those that commit these acts? Are we then never truly safe from this type of behavior? I say no, because that is a common sense understanding in my opinion.
The only option that I see, is to ensure that there are measures against such acts of violence. The patterns, though sometimes similar, are far to unpredictable to plan for.
Guns not being in the hands of many Americans is simply not going to happen anytime soon.
The only real course of action, is to accept that you need to prepare for these events, despite their statistical improbability.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

People want/need to feel good about themselves, need to believe that things happen for a "reason." Especially bad things, which is why "God has a plan for X" when bad things happen.

Believing that acts like this must be because of mental illness, because it isn't "normal" makes them feel better.

Normal people like us wouldn't commit such offenses, therefore something was defective in them.

First, it's bullshit, as the statistics show, but more importantly it's a pointless distinction. Discovering, labeling and treating mental illness is good. Believing that the acts necessitate illness is irrelevant. It just allows for an approach of feel-good and move on. Ted Bundy wasn't insane. Gacy wasn't simply depressed. Neither was the SC shooter. But labeling then thusly disassociates them from the rest of us, and, phew, that makes us all feel normal.

We are descended from barbarians, our ancestors killed as part of their nature. Desire to harm has not disappeared.

But to put it simply:

"That guy be crazy..."

So what? What aspect of this topic is informed by that classification?

I'm not sure it's just that though.

Killing is in our blood but typically people kill people they know and have some sort of beef with. When a person kills their spouse for life insurance money or something that like, very few people contend that they must be crazy.

However with mass shootings like this where someone goes into a public place and start shooting at who ever happens to be there, there is a certain irrationality to that action that informs that this has to be at least somewhat the product of mental illness.

A little while ago it was discussed that this guy targeted Christians and someone suggested that this was an atheist with a specific beef against Christians. Now while that beef might have played some part in his actions, his actions where still irrational for someone who's trying to carry out a beef against Christians. Someone who wished to do that might have targeted a church or some other place where Christians would be expected congregate.

I think it's the irrationality of this that indicates mental illness and it's why it's discussed. The guy that targeted the black church because he hated black people, his acts where out of pure hatred but they where entirely rational when viewed from the lens of that hatred. This wasn't.

 

[theIowaHawk]

That is precisely what I'm saying is false and pointless. Hell, your basic principle is wrong, the world is not rational.

The incessant need to rationalize is one of our biggest weaknesses. I think even you would admit it is one of the largest factors driving religion. We needed to explain irrational things, so we did.

The point is that it doesn't inform the issue. If ALL irrational acts = mental illness, how does classifying all mass shootings the same help to understand the problem?

 

[theIowaHawk]

Fair points, and I agree with exactly everything you have stated here.
So does this change our perceptions in how we deal with those that commit these acts? Are we then never truly safe from this type of behavior? I say no, because that is a common sense understanding in my opinion.
The only option that I see, is to ensure that there are measures against such acts of violence. The patterns, though sometimes similar, are far to unpredictable to plan for.
Guns not being in the hands of many Americans is simply not going to happen anytime soon.
The only real course of action, is to accept that you need to prepare for these events, despite their statistical improbability.

Statistically, realistically these events can not be eliminated entirely. Hopefully we can improve our numbers, and no reason to think we can't, looking globally.

But part of the problem is, in fact, the necessity of labeling and disassociating. It chills discovery, diagnosis and treatment.

Think to yourself, have you ever contemplated suicide or murder? Odds are overwhelmingly Yes. Would you tell anyone? Why not? What would you fear? Now if YOU won't admit it, who the hell would?

We so stigmatize and ostracize these people that there is very little chance that they will actively seek help or understanding. Then, even worse, is that when we do discover and diagnosis, we simply use that to make ourselves feel better. "Oh good, I knew he was crazy..," and then we just try to separate them from the herd.

And what is worse than one mentally ill person? Herding them all together, for a collection of them.

 

[MemorialRedWarrior]

Statistically, realistically these events can not be eliminated entirely. Hopefully we can improve our numbers, and no reason to think we can't, looking globally.

But part of the problem is, in fact, the necessity of labeling and disassociating. It chills discovery, diagnosis and treatment.

Think to yourself, have you ever contemplated suicide or murder? Odds are overwhelmingly Yes. Would you tell anyone? Why not? What would you fear? Now if YOU won't admit it, who the hell would?

We so stigmatize and ostracize these people that there is very little chance that they will actively seek help or understanding. Then, even worse, is that when we do discover and diagnosis, we simply use that to make ourselves feel better. "Oh good, I knew he was crazy..," and then we just try to separate them from the herd.

And what is worse than one mentally ill person? Herding them all together, for a collection of them.

You're not painting a very hopeful picture for people on this forum. Though I can't say that my brush would make anything better.

 

[hawkssox1]

With all the gun talk that has happened on here over the last 5 days, I'm surprised no discussion on the John Oliver feature this week. He hits on some very important points. The prison vs. mental hospital statistics are really sad.

John Oliver - Mental Illness

He could stand to spend some of his $$$$ on his teeth.Horrible.

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

Fantastic segment. Those were some sobering statistics. I hope we finally start to "get it".

 

[theIowaHawk]

The jailing issue should be one that is fairly obvious, once actually contemplated.

Why do we fund jails, instead of mental health facilities? Because of that black/white (not race), right/wrong, crazy/not crazy necessity that drives us.

People with mental illness who commit crimes need to be locked up! That is where they belong!

Oh wait, treating them, helping to provide for their needs would almost entirely remove that criminal element? Sure, sounds nice, but expensive, can't their family just take care of them? I'm anxious and I deal with it, why can't they?

We know what jails are for: Bad people. Bad people commit crimes.

We really don't know what mental health treatment/facilities/services does, and we don't have good objective means for understanding it, therefore we see $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and run away.

Somebody on here, can't remember who (kiting?) pointed to Portugal as a potential model for decriminalizing drugs, and its success story. But, in reality, that success story was built on flooding the system with $$$$$ for services for drug and mental health treatment. Instead of jailing, helping, and it worked, just like it has worked everywhere else.

 

[slieb85]

He could stand to spend some of his $$$$ on his teeth.Horrible.

They tell him he should fix his grill because he's got money now
He won't sit around and front like he ain't thought about it
A perfect smile is more appealing but it's funny how
His shit is crooked, look how far he done got without it
He keeps his twisted grill, just to show the kids it's real