That "Lia Thomas" is a real piece of work

[Scruddy]

Just an incredible amount of bigotry in this thread. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves. Oh and not that you will read this, but here's the truth to all the handwringing you're doing over this.

Why the data shows trans swimming champion Lia Thomas didn’t have an unfair advantage

The NCAA champion has sparked controversy and become a hate figure among conservatives, but statistics show little evidence that she performed any differently to other women, Io Dodds reports

www.independent.co.uk

Reality isn't bigoted just because people are rejecting the absurdity of a woman having a cock. You're just a moron and William is still a man (and always will be).

 

[RagnarLothbrok]

Do you have any studies to back this up?

 

[Huey Grey]

Do you believe biological males have built-in, inherent advantages when it comes to body build and muscle mass when compared to biological females?

Males? Sure. Transitioned females? No. I've posted countless studies on here. They can't find conclusive proof of an advantage.

 

[Huey Grey]

It's not that hard to be respectful. If you want to be called purple flingbow, then you are purple flingbow to me. It's not clever or helpful or respectful to call her a he.

But the point remains. The unfair advantage IS still relevant. Just because they can't beat every single woman doesn't mean it's fair for her to compete against women. 3rd best. 10th best. 28th best. It's all stealing a spot unfairly.

Except there is no unfair advantage for fully transitioned females. It would absolutely be relevant if science pointed towards an unfair advantage. But the studies find the opposite.

 

[Colonoscopy]

Except there is no unfair advantage for fully transitioned females. It would absolutely be relevant if science pointed towards an unfair advantage. But the studies find the opposite.

You don't think Luka Garza would dominate the WNBA if he transitioned?

 

[KFsdisciple]

If the dude wants to swim he should swim against the other boys... if he wants to tuck his junk and wear a one piece that's what he's entitled to

 

[KFsdisciple]

You don't think Luka Garza would dominate the WNBA if he transitioned?

Lisa Garza would be amazing in the WNBA 🤣

 

[Huey Grey]

https://www.science.org/content/article/world-athletics-banned-transgender-women-competing-does-science-support-rule

 

[Colonoscopy]

https://www.science.org/content/article/world-athletics-banned-transgender-women-competing-does-science-support-rule

Obviously, Huey, we don't have deep research into many of these scenarios.

But also, obviously, Huey, development of male physiology prior to transitioning offers a major advantage in quite a few sports.

Are you prepared to argue that male physiology, even considering muscle loss to transition, wouldn't be a huge advantage in something like basketball?

The length and height conferred by male development would lead to transitioned males having a huge advantage in the sport.

 

[Huey Grey]

You don't think Luka Garza would dominate the WNBA if he transitioned?

Probably. Not very many women close to seven feet in the WNBA. But Lia is 6'1". There's lots of female swimmers her height.

 

[Huey Grey]

Obviously, Huey, we don't have deep research into many of these scenarios.

But also, obviously, Huey, development of male physiology prior to transitioning offers a major advantage in quite a few sports.

Are you prepared to argue that male physiology, even considering muscle loss to transition, wouldn't be a huge advantage in something like basketball?

The length and height conferred by male development would lead to transitioned males having a huge advantage in the sport.

For stuff like height? Yeah. There's an advantage. I will concede that. But that doesn't seem applicable in Lias case. There are other female swimmers her height. Which puzzles me why she gets so much venom spit her way.

 

[IamHawkeye]

Do you have any studies to back this up?

Seriously... spend your whole life as a man. Start taking hormones, and then insist you be included in high level competition against women. Lap up the praise and accolades. Get up on the podium and feel good about yourself.

Ain't right in the head.

I kind wonder about someone who posts that butt all the time..

 

[RagnarLothbrok]

Males? Sure. Transitioned females? No. I've posted countless studies on here. They can't find conclusive proof of an advantage.

So Lia Thomas has fully transitioned?

 

[NorthDSMHawk]

Advantage is gained from puberty on. It’s not magically gone once they transition. The changes to things like bone density, the skeletal structure, etc remain.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

Longitudinal studies examining the effects of testosterone suppression on muscle mass and strength in transgender women consistently show very modest changes, where the loss of lean body mass, muscle area and strength typically amounts to approximately 5% after 12 months of treatment. Thus, the muscular advantage enjoyed by transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed. Sports organizations should consider this evidence when reassessing current policies regarding participation of transgender women in the female category of sport.

----------

The pioneer work by Gooren and colleagues, published in part in 1999 [61] and in full in 2004 [62], reported the effects of 1 and 3 years of testosterone suppression and estrogen supplementation in 19 transgender women (age 18–37 years). After the first year of therapy, testosterone levels were reduced to 1 nmol/L, well within typical female reference ranges, and remained low throughout the study course. As determined by MRI, thigh muscle area had decreased by − 9% from baseline measurement. After 3 years, thigh muscle area had decreased by a further − 3% from baseline measurement (total loss of − 12% over 3 years of treatment). However, when compared with the baseline measurement of thigh muscle area in transgender men (who are born female and experience female puberty), transgender women retained significantly higher thigh muscle size. The final thigh muscle area, after three years of testosterone suppression, was 13% larger in transwomen than in the transmen at baseline (p < 0.05).The authors concluded that testosterone suppression in transgender women does not reverse muscle size to female levels.

-----------

We have shown that under testosterone suppression regimes typically used in clinical settings, and which comfortably exceed the requirements of sports federations for inclusion of transgender women in female sports categories by reducing testosterone levels to well below the upper tolerated limit, evidence for loss of the male performance advantage, established by testosterone at puberty and translating in elite athletes to a 10–50% performance advantage, is lacking. Rather, the data show that strength, lean body mass, muscle size and bone density are only trivially affected. The reductions observed in muscle mass, size, and strength are very small compared to the baseline differences between males and females in these variables, and thus, there are major performance and safety implications in sports where these attributes are competitively significant.


https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3



And another study that looks at physiological differences that originate at puberty.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/cen.13350


At what point, out of all of these threads we've had, do we start to question why we're not ever discussing a F --> M transition athlete?

 

[Huey Grey]

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

Longitudinal studies examining the effects of testosterone suppression on muscle mass and strength in transgender women consistently show very modest changes, where the loss of lean body mass, muscle area and strength typically amounts to approximately 5% after 12 months of treatment. Thus, the muscular advantage enjoyed by transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed. Sports organizations should consider this evidence when reassessing current policies regarding participation of transgender women in the female category of sport.

----------

The pioneer work by Gooren and colleagues, published in part in 1999 [61] and in full in 2004 [62], reported the effects of 1 and 3 years of testosterone suppression and estrogen supplementation in 19 transgender women (age 18–37 years). After the first year of therapy, testosterone levels were reduced to 1 nmol/L, well within typical female reference ranges, and remained low throughout the study course. As determined by MRI, thigh muscle area had decreased by − 9% from baseline measurement. After 3 years, thigh muscle area had decreased by a further − 3% from baseline measurement (total loss of − 12% over 3 years of treatment). However, when compared with the baseline measurement of thigh muscle area in transgender men (who are born female and experience female puberty), transgender women retained significantly higher thigh muscle size. The final thigh muscle area, after three years of testosterone suppression, was 13% larger in transwomen than in the transmen at baseline (p < 0.05).The authors concluded that testosterone suppression in transgender women does not reverse muscle size to female levels.

-----------

We have shown that under testosterone suppression regimes typically used in clinical settings, and which comfortably exceed the requirements of sports federations for inclusion of transgender women in female sports categories by reducing testosterone levels to well below the upper tolerated limit, evidence for loss of the male performance advantage, established by testosterone at puberty and translating in elite athletes to a 10–50% performance advantage, is lacking. Rather, the data show that strength, lean body mass, muscle size and bone density are only trivially affected. The reductions observed in muscle mass, size, and strength are very small compared to the baseline differences between males and females in these variables, and thus, there are major performance and safety implications in sports where these attributes are competitively significant.


https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3



And another study that looks at physiological differences that originate at puberty.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/cen.13350


At what point, out of all of these threads we've had, do we start to question why we're not ever discussing a F --> M transition athlete?

They seem to have an advantage a year after transitioning. And still have an advantage up to two years after. Beyond that, it doesn't appear they have any advantage according to this military study.

Trans women retain athletic edge after a year of hormone therapy, study finds

The findings raise questions about current Olympic guidelines, but the lead author cautions against using them to back bans in recreational and school sports.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[swagsurfer02]

So…… if person A believes Lia Thomas is a man, they are a bigot and don’t believe in science. If person B believes Lia Thomas is a woman, they are intelligent and fully competent.


2024 is fricken awesome!

 

[KFsdisciple]

So…… if person A believes Lia Thomas is a man, they are a bigot and don’t believe in science. If person B believes Lia Thomas is a woman, they are intelligent and fully competent.


2024 is fricken awesome!

Up is down, down is up...if anyone believes Mr Thomas is a woman, they're as nuts as the junk hanging between his legs

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

Except there is no unfair advantage for fully transitioned females. It would absolutely be relevant if science pointed towards an unfair advantage. But the studies find the opposite.

this is false and the studies showing an unfair advantage have been posted on this site. You are a liar. My question is why?

Why lie about this issue? Why is males competing against women so important to you?

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

https://www.science.org/content/article/world-athletics-banned-transgender-women-competing-does-science-support-rule

View embedded media

Lies.

 

[RagnarLothbrok]

They seem to have an advantage a year after transitioning. And still have an advantage up to two years after. Beyond that, it doesn't appear they have any advantage according to this military study.

Trans women retain athletic edge after a year of hormone therapy, study finds

The findings raise questions about current Olympic guidelines, but the lead author cautions against using them to back bans in recreational and school sports.

www.nbcnews.com

Now you’re moving the goalposts.

So, by year 3 after a full transition then they are physically on par with a biological woman? Somehow I doubt it.

My only interest in this topic is fidelity to women’s sports. Period. If science can back up peer-reviewed studies that show at what point a transitioned female is no longer advantaged by biology, I will be less concerned. Somehow, I’m guessing there is a lot of variance and fluctuation in the data.

In short, there is never going to be a good answer to this.

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

So Lia Thomas has fully transitioned?

No. He cannot ever “fully transition” whatever the hell that means anyways.

 

[EvolutionDenier]

Except there is no unfair advantage for fully transitioned females. It would absolutely be relevant if science pointed towards an unfair advantage. But the studies find the opposite.

Males don't become females, numbnuts.

Remember when you guys were all, "GeNdEr 'N' sEx R diffrunt!"?
Now you're calling males "female." Phvckin' clowncollege clownfish.

 

[EvolutionDenier]

So Lia Thomas has fully transitioned?

?
From male to ... male?

 

[RagnarLothbrok]

No. He cannot ever “fully transition” whatever the hell that means anyways.

I have my doubts too.

The problem I see is Huey keeps moving the goalposts. Now he has conceded that within the first two years AFTER transitioning there are still physical advantages a trans woman has over a biological female. I have a feeling the science will be twisted the same way the science behind COVID was twisted: to fit a political narrative.

The reality is pretty much all biological males will have inherent advantages to biological females regardless of hormone therapy. There is simply not enough scientific data yet to make the conclusions Huey is trying to make. And most likely, the science in ten years will continue to be conflicting and politically driven.

This shit show is just getting warmed up.

 

[EvolutionDenier]

I have my doubts too.

The problem I see is Huey keeps moving the goalposts. Now he has conceded that within the first two years AFTER transitioning there are still physical advantages a trans woman has over a biological female. I have a feeling the science will be twisted the same way the science behind COVID was twisted: to fit a political narrative.

The reality is pretty much all biological males will have inherent advantages to biological females regardless of hormone therapy. There is simply not enough scientific data yet to make the conclusions Huey is trying to make. And most likely, the science in ten years will continue to be conflicting and politically driven.

This shit show is just getting warmed up.

Let's simply start with differences in lung capacity, bone density, and skeletal structure before we even touch upon the vast strength difference. It's almost as if the freshman C team defenders of this bizarre ideology have never made a layup or run a lap.

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

Let's simply start with differences in lung capacity, bone density, and skeletal structure before we even touch upon the vast strength difference. It's almost as if the freshman C team defenders of this bizarre ideology have never made a layup or run a lap.

B b b BINGO

 

[Huey Grey]

Now you’re moving the goalposts.

So, by year 3 after a full transition then they are physically on par with a biological woman? Somehow I doubt it.

My only interest in this topic is fidelity to women’s sports. Period. If science can back up peer-reviewed studies that show at what point a transitioned female is no longer advantaged by biology, I will be less concerned. Somehow, I’m guessing there is a lot of variance and fluctuation in the data.

In short, there is never going to be a good answer to this.

Not by year three. It's up to year two there is any advantage. After that it's on par with cis women. So as long as you pass the two year mark they can't find any unfairness. And this is a military study.

 

[Huey Grey]

this is false and the studies showing an unfair advantage have been posted on this site. You are a liar. My question is why?

Why lie about this issue? Why is males competing against women so important to you?

Military studies are lies?

 

[Huey Grey]

I have my doubts too.

The problem I see is Huey keeps moving the goalposts. Now he has conceded that within the first two years AFTER transitioning there are still physical advantages a trans woman has over a biological female. I have a feeling the science will be twisted the same way the science behind COVID was twisted: to fit a political narrative.

The reality is pretty much all biological males will have inherent advantages to biological females regardless of hormone therapy. There is simply not enough scientific data yet to make the conclusions Huey is trying to make. And most likely, the science in ten years will continue to be conflicting and politically driven.

This shit show is just getting warmed up.

Your side is the one claiming there's a clear advantage. But you literally just admitted that the studies don't agree with your assertion. Studies don't agree there is a clear advantage. If you're going to ban people shouldn't you be certain of why you're banning them first? Shouldn't there be reasonable proof first? Because your side lacks that proof.

And I'm not moving the goalposts. You are. Transitioned is considered at least two years by many standards. You're the one trying to reduce that to less.

 

[EvolutionDenier]

If you're going to ban people shouldn't you be certain of why you're banning them first?

Because they're male.

 

[DeangeloVickers]

Not by year three. It's up to year two there is any advantage. After that it's on par with cis women. So as long as you pass the two year mark they can't find any unfairness. And this is a military study.

So your assertion is in three years, WilLia will be a slower swimmer than he/she is now?

 

[Huey Grey]

So your assertion is in three years, WilLia will be a slower swimmer than he/she is now?

My assertion is exactly what the studies say. After two years they can't find any real measurable advantage. Do what you want with this information.

 

[DeangeloVickers]

My assertion is exactly what the studies say. After two years they can't find any real measurable advantage. Do what you want with this information.

So his/her performance will decline? I mean if the advantage "disappears" after 3 years than surely it will? Do you see how stupid you sound? It's amazing how willing people are to suspend all common sense to argue something they're emotionally attached to.

 

[DeangeloVickers]

Found the author of the military study -

 

[Colonoscopy]

@Huey Grey Your framing is all wrong and I don't accept it.

We're starting from the perspective that biological males have an advantage of biological females in most sport, often to a large degree. (this is obvious to all)

Therefor they shouldn't compete against one another.

You need to be able to prove that something like hormonal transition over X period of time somehow levels the playing field, so to speak. Which would also require understanding all the ways males might be advantaged.

We don't have that sort of evidence and the studies you've shared don't offer anything near a definitive conclusion.

No, the military data showing that after 2 years pushups & sit-ups (but apparently not running) normalized across transitioners and their gender hardly digs deep enough into the complexities associated with advantage to make the call.

Nor does the cited stuff in the article you posted about Lia's performance as a male. (in fact, it only reinforced some concerns)

 

[auntie_fah]

@Huey Grey Your framing is all wrong and I don't accept it.

You sexualize underage teens.

 

[Colonoscopy]

You sexualize underage teens.

If there. Is grass on. The field. PLAY BALL.

 

[KFsdisciple]

Found the author of the military study -

View embedded media

She's just so pretty... total hot babe

 

[Colonoscopy]

 

[EvolutionDenier]

You sexualize underage teens.

You think sex is a "spectrum."