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The Atlantic: We’re Missing a Key Driver of Teen Anxiety

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Feb 20, 2022
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Interesting entry into the debate about kids and mental health.

Last week, columbia university became the latest school to announce that it would no longer require SAT or ACT scores for undergraduate admissions. The school’s decision was “rooted in the belief that students are dynamic, multi-faceted individuals who cannot be defined by any single factor,” the college said in a defense of its policy change.

The SAT has faced heavy scrutiny for privileging rich families, which can pay for test-prep classes for their kids. Some believe that dropping the test is an ethical move toward equality in selective college admissions. Others argue that Columbia is replacing one metric skewed toward rich students with a bundle of metrics that are even more stratified by socioeconomic status, such as high GPAs, internships in Nicaragua, and expensive traveling soccer teams.


My concern is that this elite-college policy—carried out in the name of equity—might billow the embers of a teen-anxiety firestorm. After all, when a college makes one test the core of your application, you’ll cram for that test. When the same school says your assessment is based on an infinitude of talents, it’s a tacit suggestion that ambitious students spend 100 hours a week cultivating as many résumé-stuffers as possible.

For the past few weeks, I’ve been thinking a lot about the extraordinary rise of teen mental distress in the United States. I’ve studied the literature on social-media and smartphone use and considered the rise of loneliness among young people. But the Columbia news made me think I’ve overlooked a key factor that helps explain why adolescent distress is rising not only in the U.S. but also in many rich countries. It’s pressure-cooker schools.

A 2022 paper by Dirk Bethmann and Robert Rudolf, both professors at Korea University, points out a curious paradox: In the 21st century, rich countries are beset with sadder adolescents. This finding runs counter to one of the fundamental rules of economics. Global data strongly associate wealth and happiness for adults, because citizens of richer countries tend to have higher subjective well-being than those of poorer countries. But Bethmann and Rudolf found a “paradox of wealthy nations,” because advanced economies seem to manufacture happier adults and unhappier adolescents.

One explanation might go like this: Richer and more complex economies require more rigorous and intense education, putting more pressure on kids to be high-achieving perfectionists. Adolescents go through a kind of happiness slingshot, in which stress early on springs them toward greater wealth and well-being later in life. Bethmann and Rudolf wink at this notion, writing that although “a higher learning intensity tends to increase a student’s academic achievement,” it tends to reduce leisure time, sleep, and subjective well-being.


Bethmann and Rudolf also found that higher standardized-test scores and student assessments of academic competition were strongly correlated with teen anxiety. If you take two countries that are equivalent in almost every way—same GDP, inequality, life expectancy, air pollution—the nation with higher test scores and more student competition will have more anxious and depressed teens.

The Bethmann-Rudolf hypothesis echoes international evidence that has repeatedly uncovered a negative relationship between (1) a culture of obsessive student achievement and long schoolwork hours, and (2) student well-being:

  • After an education reform in Germany led to more instructional time, a 2018 study found that increased school hours “significantly reduced adolescents’ self-rated mental health status.”
  • A 2018 analysis of Taiwan “cram schools,” which often focus on helping students pass standardized tests, found that these programs reliably increase academic achievement at the cost of increasing rates of depression.
  • A 2018 study by Gabriel Heller-Sahlgren at the London School of Economics found that schools around the world with higher test scores and more homework typically see the same trade-off: higher achievement and lower well-being, possibly because of greater “parental-achievement pressure,” which encourages students to feel more competitive.
  • A 2022 study of seventh to 10th graders by Korean researchers found that students whose peers were randomly assigned private tutoring after school reported more depressive symptoms. One possible explanation is that teens without tutors became more worried about their relative academic success and spent more time on schoolwork to keep up.
Bethmann and Rudolf point out a deep irony of this trade-off. In the 20th century, reformers fought to reduce the workweek and rescue kids from the scourge of labor. In the 21st century, we’ve intensified the demands of the school week. In many OECD countries, teenagers study longer than the permitted legal working hours for adult employees. The legal maximum workweek in South Korea is 52 hours, Bethmann and Rudolf report in their paper, but roughly one in four 15-year-old students studies 60 hours or more a week. The hardest-working decile of students in several European countries also put in 60-hour weeks. And, as the authors note, anxiety rates in many Western countries are just going up and up.

Now, what about the u.s., specifically?

[cont...]
 
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[cont...]
Forty years ago, the most anxious kids in America were those in low-income households. Beginning in the late 1990s, that flipped, according to the researcher Suniya Luthar. In a series of studies, she found that rich teens in high-achieving schools were the most anxious and depressed. One possibility she explored was that the most rigorous schools created an environment where kids worried too much about how they measured up to their peers in grades, activities, and college admissions.

“I have for years thought that one of the main causes of the increase in adolescent depression was an increase in school pressure,” Laurence Steinberg, a psychologist who studies adolescent behavior at Temple University, told me. “When I talk to kids and we talk about sources of stress, they mention school pressure more than likes on Instagram.”

Some parents might respond that a little school pressure at 17 is a fine price to pay for decades of higher salaries and career success. If that’s true, this phenomenon is classic delayed gratification: pain now, gain later.

“Maybe these problems will go away when these young people grow up,” Steinberg admitted. “But also, maybe they won’t go away. We know adolescence is the main time when chronic depression begins. And if school pressure is making some kids depressed and borderline suicidal, I find it hard to argue that it’ll be all right if they can afford a bigger house 20 years from now.”

Let me try to meet ambitious parents and teens halfway. My parents put academic achievement on a pedestal in our household. And so do I: I think hard work, thoughtfulness, and cultures of excellence are values worth cherishing, and I want to pass down those values to my own kids. But I hope we can all acknowledge that sometimes this value system unhelpfully conflates intelligence with self-worth. Many parents may be worshipping healthy values in an unhealthy way.

Imagine, by analogy, that you’re a parent who is generally interested in your child being healthy—that is, eating the right foods and engaging in youth sports and playtime. You move to a neighborhood where the parents hold the same value—fitness is good—but they take it to extremes. At 5 a.m., every high schooler in the neighborhood participates in a grueling private HIIT class. Parents closely track their kids’ body-mass index and blood pressure. A while back, one parent entered their child in an international weight-lifting contest, it created a cascade of anxious mimicry, and now all the kids participate in international weight-lifting contests. Each month, one of the kids in the neighborhood is awarded Fittest Kid, and parents display these FK honors with living-room trophies and bumper stickers on their car. Over the years, the neighborhood has produced several bodybuilders and elite athletes, along with high rates of eating disorders and body dysmorphia. This has drawn the attention of researchers, who have concluded that the community has designed a culture of physical achievement that is both highly successful and indisputably crazy.

Yes, that example is kind of weird. But how different is it, really, from the way many status-obsessed parents and teens have come to treat academic excellence? A healthy virtue can be maximized to the point of toxicity.

The school-pressure hypothesis doesn’t rule out the role that social media and smartphones might play in the rise of teen anxiety. Teen distress is very likely the result of many different causal streams mingling together. For example, perhaps school intensity creates a culture of competition that raises the salience of status: “Am I doing enough to be more valuable than others?” Status anxiety carries over to social media, where precious leisure time is spent in virtual competitions for even more quantitative rewards—just another platform for being tested, where precisely counted “likes” stand in for grades. Meanwhile, the combination of school intensity and phone usage squeezes out offline leisure time, leading to fewer friends and hangouts, not to mention less sleep. All of this makes kids, especially those predisposed to anxiety and mental-health disorders, less capable of coping with the world’s chaos and more likely to tell a counselor that they can’t deal with existential stressors, such as climate change and school violence.


A good reason to scrutinize smartphone usage among teens is that it’s a very plausible contributor to youth distress. But pinning this whole thing on phones might lead us to overlook the other ways that modern life might be contributing to a more miserable childhood experience. “Sometimes I just think, my God,” Steinberg exclaimed at the end of our call. “Like, shouldn’t we care about giving kids a good experience of being a kid?”
 
Kids are already doing that. And yes, I believe it's adding to anexity.
My son was top 3 in his class. His PSAT scores had Harvard and Yale sending us literature.
But he didn't get into some of his top choice schools. Why? Because he didn't put much in his applications other than his grades and his sport.
My daughter did not have the same grades/scores, but she filled up those applications with a mountain of stuff. Work, sports, debate club captain, charity work. You name it.
She's certain suffering more from anxiety than he was, but he was also very worried. When he was a sophomore he told us that if he doesn't get all As he won't get into a good school and he'll end up living under an overpass. He was serious.
Kids these days know that it's a competition and they're worried about it. Early.
 
Teenage kids are going to have anxiety. It's hard to image that they won't.

Will I get good grades? Can I go to college? Can I afford college? Do I want to go to college? What are my friends doing? Will I make the team? Will I start? Will I make first chair in the band? Will I get a date to the Dance? The right date? Are my clothes cool enough? Do I have a car? A cool car? A new cell phone? How should I cut my hair?

It's a difficult time. Removing a couple of stressers sounds good, but it just means more anxiety room for the next one.

Its up to parents to manage the stress their kids face, and it's a tough job.
 
Meh, it’s been like that for years with schooling. I would say the biggest reason for the anxiety and mental illness would be social media.
It's probably a complicated mixture of variables, however, this specific variable hadn't been included in analysis I've consumed recently. The breakdown of anxiety across demographics would be helpful. (especially where demographics correlate to high achieving students)
 
In the 1970's and 1980's we had school and sports and tests.
We even had to take the ACT and work hard for college as well
as work part-time jobs. And if we did dumb stuff the teachers or
the parents or both would try to knock some sense into us. What we
didn't have was social media. Youth of today are not resilient. If
someone can figure out why, we can begin to solve it.
 
Teenage kids are going to have anxiety. It's hard to image that they won't.

Will I get good grades? Can I go to college? Can I afford college? Do I want to go to college? What are my friends doing? Will I make the team? Will I start? Will I make first chair in the band? Will I get a date to the Dance? The right date? Are my clothes cool enough? Do I have a car? A cool car? A new cell phone? How should I cut my hair?

It's a difficult time. Removing a couple of stressers sounds good, but it just means more anxiety room for the next one.

Its up to parents to manage the stress their kids face, and it's a tough job.
Sure. We're just trying to explain the recent rise of self-reported anxiety and depression. (which does seem to correlate with self harm and suicide, lending credence to the notion something real is happening)
 
In the 1970's and 1980's we had school and sports and tests.
We even had to take the ACT and work hard for college as well
as work part-time jobs. And if we did dumb stuff the teachers or
the parents or both would try to knock some sense into us. What we
didn't have was social media. Youth of today are not resilient. If
someone can figure out why, we can begin to solve it.
I'd like to see what working hard in school today looks like, as well as how many do it. And then to contrast that with data from yesteryear as you describe.
 
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Then we can stop grading college classes.

At that point you are just handing out paper that says you paid money for the paper.
 
In 1915 when my granddad was 13 years old and had just completed
the 8th grade in the one-room country school, his dad went on a bender
and didn't come back for a long time. He quit school and farmed full-time,
never learning to write in cursive. He supported his mom for the rest of her
life and his siblings for many years. Pressure is all relative. His stories of the
Great Depression were amazing. He ended up on the board of a bank and on
the school board. He didn't have time for anxiety.
 
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I'd like to see what working hard in school today looks like, as well as how many do it. And then to contrast that with data from yesteryear as you describe.
I can tell you (and I'm sure @NDallasRuss can as well) that working hard in school these days dwarfs anything we did. Today it means taking HS math in middle school so that you can take the year of AP Calculus by Junior year. It means taking 20+ AP courses in high school, it means having more homework and difficult assignments than we ever did. It means computer lab, and robotics teams, and comparative literature. My kid would bring homework with him any weekend he had a race because keeping up was more important than hanging out. He would routinely be up past midnight working on homework assignments. School, practice, dinner, homework. That was his life for 4 years in HS. See his friends maybe friday night if there wasn't a race the next day.
Me? I hardly ever did homework even when it was assigned. About 50% of the classes had maybe one single big project. You could get into the good state schools without AP classes.
Shit some of my kid's classes are harder than many of my college courses.
 
It's probably a complicated mixture of variables, however, this specific variable hadn't been included in analysis I've consumed recently. The breakdown of anxiety across demographics would be helpful. (especially where demographics correlate to high achieving students)
Just look no further than teen suicide rates and the correlation with the prominence of social media. This is especially true in our young teenage women
 
I'm sure school is adding to the pressure, but pressure from school has always been there. If they think that keeping up with the Jones' is a new phenomenon, that's been around since as long as there have been neighborhood watches. I suppose the difference now is everyone broadcasts their kids achievements on social media so parents might put more pressure on kids to "keep up". Which brings us back to social media as the main issue with anxiety.
 
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Meh, it’s been like that for years with schooling. I would say the biggest reason for the anxiety and mental illness would be social media.
This is undoubtedly a major contributing factor.

Prior to Facebook, Snapchat, Instagram, Twitter, Tik Tok, et.al., there were millions of kids nationwide who went to school and got bullied, ostracized, marginalized, or on the other end of the spectrum, spent every minute in an extremely competitive state of mind....competing with friends/classmates for ranking and status in academics, sports, cheerleading, dance, music, art, and on and on.

The difference is, back then, as long as they didn't answer the phone, home was a place where they could--to paraphrase the Cheers theme song--take a break from all their worries. Or at least take a break from some of them, and for at least some amount of time.

Today, they are interconnected 24/7/365 with their friends, support groups, classmates and competitors, and also their tormentors (in whatever form that torment might take).

To make matters even worse, they're also in near-constant connection with their teachers. Doodle's daughter does 90% of her homework on a laptop provided by the school. Almost everything is digital and is turned in and graded via Google Classroom, Canvas Portal, and Infinite Campus. Not only that, but the parents also have instantaneous and constant access to details on every homework assignment, project, quiz, test and final.

So it's not merely a matter of the stereotype of the modern teen being unwilling to disconnect and disengage. In fact, it instead is proving to be a virtual impossibility for them to do so. Thus, there is no way you'll convince Ol' Doodle that this isn't having a dramatically detrimental impact on their mental health, especially as compared to prior generations.
 
At some point we have to acknowledge that very few minds, by definition, are special. Very few degrees are special. The range of salaries that these degrees offer is not disparate for the bulk of people, and a degree is no more valuable on a whole than being a skilled tradesman. Encouraging kids to fight and stress over it is essentially pointless.
 
I can tell you (and I'm sure @NDallasRuss can as well) that working hard in school these days dwarfs anything we did. Today it means taking HS math in middle school so that you can take the year of AP Calculus by Junior year. It means taking 20+ AP courses in high school, it means having more homework and difficult assignments than we ever did. It means computer lab, and robotics teams, and comparative literature. My kid would bring homework with him any weekend he had a race because keeping up was more important than hanging out. He would routinely be up past midnight working on homework assignments. School, practice, dinner, homework. That was his life for 4 years in HS. See his friends maybe friday night if there wasn't a race the next day.
Me? I hardly ever did homework even when it was assigned. About 50% of the classes had maybe one single big project. You could get into the good state schools without AP classes.
Shit some of my kid's classes are harder than many of my college courses.

I agree and will vouch as well.

I agree with the broad premise of this piece, but not necessarily its underlying analysis.

This is most definitely a thing, and I do think it is a big motivator of stress for a segment of kids, but I think we way overestimate the percentage of kids across the board that are in on this segment. And it is highly correlated to the upper middle class and above, which means its over-represented in think pieces by by journalists and cultural commentators, and even on things like this board, where we all skew super rich and successful. And by the nature of it, for those of us whose kids are "in the game", they are surrounded by large numbers of peers who are also "in the game", which I think gives us a false sense of how many kids are overall experiencing this. I'm doubtful that this is broad enough to show up as a prime, measurable society-wide driver

But for those kids who are in it, and even those kids that don't embrace it but go to schools with a high percentage of those that do, it's a huge grind.

The thing is, I can't help but feel there's something ultimately...false, or manufactured, about this entire paradigm these kids are trapped in. Like, I don't buy this at all:

One explanation might go like this: Richer and more complex economies require more rigorous and intense education, putting more pressure on kids to be high-achieving perfectionists. Adolescents go through a kind of happiness slingshot, in which stress early on springs them toward greater wealth and well-being later in life.

This doesn't make any sense, because this implies that the stress would primarily be directed at kids who are borderline to get into a college. But it's not...this is kids who are shoe ins for college, that are putting stress on getting into Ivy/Stanford rather than slumming at Vanderbilt or Tulane. Or, pushing to get into the University of Georgia or to Florida State, rather than Kennesaw State.

The vast majority of kids that are caught up in this could get into the engineering program at like East Tennessee State or Alabama-Birmingham or UNC-Greensboro, and very likely get huge financial aid (insert equivalent in your state). And I'm sorry, if you graduate as an engineer from ETSU or something, you're not losing life's lottery as evinced by that paragraph. You're just not...it flies in the face of everything we know. We have plenty of data on this.

It might cut you out of a handful of super elite positions that are available for top MIT grads or something, but why are we perpetuating this idea to pre-teens that their whole life will be determined, their most basic financial survival, is bent on getting into a school that requires herculean efforts to maybe get into?

The truth is, the emphasis on the importance of your undergraduate school is 1000x more emphasized with kids today than it was in our generation. When I was coming up, it was Ivy Leagues, which nobody really tried for, and pretty much everything else. There would have been a vague understanding that some schools were a little better than others, but NOTHING like this.

So it reverberates throughout the system. When I was doing this 30 years ago, kids would make a lot of their college decisions based on proximity, size, feel of campus, attractiveness of coeds, how hard it might be, how good their teams were, or they might want to continue with a religious school. It just wouldn't be weird 30 years ago for a kid from Macon, with great grades and scores, to go to Valdosta State because he'd rather be a little closer, likes the idea of a smaller campus, and has a couple friends that go there. Nobody was going to shit on that kid. Now, the same kid wants to go to Valdosta State, and everyone from parents, teachers, friends parents, etc are like "what the hell are you thinking??? You can get into UGA!"

And that in turn reverberates through the system...now you have a bunch of kids that would have gone somewhere else going to UGA, which drives up the admittance threshold for more average students, and so on down the line.

Even those of us that try to keep a lid on this extreme college chasing fall in with it. I didn't want my kid to go to Valdosta State if they could go to Georgia or Georgia Tech or Alabama. I don't even know for sure why.

Somehow we've allowed this generation of kids to be instilled with "You really must go to the best college you can possibly be admitted to, and ideally one even better than that, or you're effed."

Despite the fact that data shows it isn't true, logic shows it isn't true, we weren't given that kind of pressure, etc. So where has that come from?

It feels to me like it's almost an organized campaign by the educational-industrial complex of universities, loan administrators, bureaucrats and the testing/test prep industry, to create a need, if not a crisis, that didn't actually exist.
 
I think the core issue to address is identity. Our society & culture teach kids that their self-worth is wrapped up in career/athletics/sex/fame so they put their personal identity in these areas. All of those are a total lie and recipe for disaster.
 
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At some point we have to acknowledge that very few minds, by definition, are special. Very few degrees are special. The range of salaries that these degrees offer is not disparate for the bulk of people, and a degree is no more valuable on a whole than being a skilled tradesman. Encouraging kids to fight and stress over it is essentially pointless.
I think talent, interest, and work ethic all combine to be the biggest drivers of success, at least in the nature we're speaking of it. However, I suppose if you're in competition between lots of people where those three items are rather similar, then you end up placing much more emphasis on other areas in which you might gain an advantage. (even if small)

You can still question how much is gained in pursuit of those advantages, though.
 
This is simple. SAT/ACT scores don't justify the diversity/identity breakdown they want, so they came up with a carefully worded statement to justify eliminating the tests.
It’s not like these schools aren’t admitting the best candidates. This is proven out in decades of results.

They simply don’t like who they’re admitting or they believe that they’re much more important than they are.
 
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I agree and will vouch as well.

I agree with the broad premise of this piece, but not necessarily its underlying analysis.

This is most definitely a thing, and I do think it is a big motivator of stress for a segment of kids, but I think we way overestimate the percentage of kids across the board that are in on this segment. And it is highly correlated to the upper middle class and above, which means its over-represented in think pieces by by journalists and cultural commentators, and even on things like this board, where we all skew super rich and successful. And by the nature of it, for those of us whose kids are "in the game", they are surrounded by large numbers of peers who are also "in the game", which I think gives us a false sense of how many kids are overall experiencing this. I'm doubtful that this is broad enough to show up as a prime, measurable society-wide driver

But for those kids who are in it, and even those kids that don't embrace it but go to schools with a high percentage of those that do, it's a huge grind.

The thing is, I can't help but feel there's something ultimately...false, or manufactured, about this entire paradigm these kids are trapped in. Like, I don't buy this at all:

One explanation might go like this: Richer and more complex economies require more rigorous and intense education, putting more pressure on kids to be high-achieving perfectionists. Adolescents go through a kind of happiness slingshot, in which stress early on springs them toward greater wealth and well-being later in life.

This doesn't make any sense, because this implies that the stress would primarily be directed at kids who are borderline to get into a college. But it's not...this is kids who are shoe ins for college, that are putting stress on getting into Ivy/Stanford rather than slumming at Vanderbilt or Tulane. Or, pushing to get into the University of Georgia or to Florida State, rather than Kennesaw State.

The vast majority of kids that are caught up in this could get into the engineering program at like East Tennessee State or Alabama-Birmingham or UNC-Greensboro, and very likely get huge financial aid (insert equivalent in your state). And I'm sorry, if you graduate as an engineer from ETSU or something, you're not losing life's lottery as evinced by that paragraph. You're just not...it flies in the face of everything we know. We have plenty of data on this.

It might cut you out of a handful of super elite positions that are available for top MIT grads or something, but why are we perpetuating this idea to pre-teens that their whole life will be determined, their most basic financial survival, is bent on getting into a school that requires herculean efforts to maybe get into?

The truth is, the emphasis on the importance of your undergraduate school is 1000x more emphasized with kids today than it was in our generation. When I was coming up, it was Ivy Leagues, which nobody really tried for, and pretty much everything else. There would have been a vague understanding that some schools were a little better than others, but NOTHING like this.

So it reverberates throughout the system. When I was doing this 30 years ago, kids would make a lot of their college decisions based on proximity, size, feel of campus, attractiveness of coeds, how hard it might be, how good their teams were, or they might want to continue with a religious school. It just wouldn't be weird 30 years ago for a kid from Macon, with great grades and scores, to go to Valdosta State because he'd rather be a little closer, likes the idea of a smaller campus, and has a couple friends that go there. Nobody was going to shit on that kid. Now, the same kid wants to go to Valdosta State, and everyone from parents, teachers, friends parents, etc are like "what the hell are you thinking??? You can get into UGA!"

And that in turn reverberates through the system...now you have a bunch of kids that would have gone somewhere else going to UGA, which drives up the admittance threshold for more average students, and so on down the line.

Even those of us that try to keep a lid on this extreme college chasing fall in with it. I didn't want my kid to go to Valdosta State if they could go to Georgia or Georgia Tech or Alabama. I don't even know for sure why.

Somehow we've allowed this generation of kids to be instilled with "You really must go to the best college you can possibly be admitted to, and ideally one even better than that, or you're effed."

Despite the fact that data shows it isn't true, logic shows it isn't true, we weren't given that kind of pressure, etc. So where has that come from?

It feels to me like it's almost an organized campaign by the educational-industrial complex of universities, loan administrators, bureaucrats and the testing/test prep industry, to create a need, if not a crisis, that didn't actually exist.
I think part of that drive come from the kids who see tons of people just a few years ahead of them saying "There's no way I'll ever be able to afford a house in this economy."
That is everywhere on Reddit. On the thread of "What's your age and your biggest worry" all the young people listed never being able to own anything like we all have.
The economy is changing and young people see the idea of the american dream becoming less and less attainable.
 
I can tell you (and I'm sure @NDallasRuss can as well) that working hard in school these days dwarfs anything we did. Today it means taking HS math in middle school so that you can take the year of AP Calculus by Junior year. It means taking 20+ AP courses in high school, it means having more homework and difficult assignments than we ever did. It means computer lab, and robotics teams, and comparative literature. My kid would bring homework with him any weekend he had a race because keeping up was more important than hanging out. He would routinely be up past midnight working on homework assignments. School, practice, dinner, homework. That was his life for 4 years in HS. See his friends maybe friday night if there wasn't a race the next day.
Me? I hardly ever did homework even when it was assigned. About 50% of the classes had maybe one single big project. You could get into the good state schools without AP classes.
Shit some of my kid's classes are harder than many of my college courses.
I agree 100% with Belem. I'm sure for kids who want to slack off and not go to college, it might be easier now than when we were in HS. But for kids who want to achieve, and go to a good college, I completely understand why depression, anxiety, and suicide are so high in some high schools.

The daughter began in 7th grade and had 6 years of Latin, 6 years of HS math, and 16 AP classes. The top kids now have to do WAY more than the top kids back then. Honors classes are essentially basic classes, and regular classes are pretty much considered remedial.

I got accepted into aTm and the college I went to with a middle of the road class rank and pretty decent SAT. Today I'd be working two years in JuCo and hoping to transfer.

It's obvious that anyone who says kids today are slackers have no idea what these kids have to go through to be competitive.
 
I think the core issue to address is identity. Our society & culture teach kids that their self-worth is wrapped up in career/athletics/sex/fame so they put their personal identity in these areas. All of those are a total lie and recipe for disaster.
Whether it should or not, that carries through into adulthood. Meet someone in a bar and one of the first questions is "So, what do you do?". Everything after is based on the response.
 
Whether it should or not, that carries through into adulthood. Meet someone in a bar and one of the first questions is "So, what do you do?". Everything after is based on the response.
Agreed. Been to way too many adult functions where I got so tired of all the BS and time wasted. I decided awhile back in that situation to not ask “what do you do” and instead ask “how is your soul?” The reactions I get are priceless.
 
One possibility she explored was that the most rigorous schools created an environment where kids worried too much about how they measured up to their peers in grades, activities, and college admissions.
Man, I think there's a LOT to this. Class rank was a huge deal at the daughter's HS. Knowing where you stood, who was above/ below you, and what you could do to move up was a big deal.

I'm sure I was part of the problem. I kept a formula- driven spreadsheet of the daughter's grades - weighted and unweighted - and could show her the impact of every grade increase and decrease on her GPA.

Even with all the GPA bumps for AP classes, and getting only one grade below and A- since 7th grade (a hard-earned B+ in AP Calculus), the highest she could go was 24th out of ~350 kids.

She knew where she stood, and where everyone else stood, and vice versa.

Her school district also maintained a website that tracked (without student names) colleges where everyone applied to, got accepted (or wait listed to) and you could go see what your chances were with your grades and test scores.
 
Agreed. Been to way too many adult functions where I got so tired of all the BS and time wasted. I decided awhile back in that situation to not ask “what do you do” and instead ask “how is your soul?” The reactions I get are priceless.
I noticed a big difference back when I visited my buddy in England for the first time. No one ever asked what you did, because they didn't care. They just wanted to know if you were cool to hang out with or not.
 
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if sat and act lobbyists can be overcome to eliminate the need for standardized tests, maybe one day the powers that be will take pity on adults and eliminate the need for complicated tax filings...
 
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I think part of that drive come from the kids who see tons of people just a few years ahead of them saying "There's no way I'll ever be able to afford a house in this economy."
That is everywhere on Reddit. On the thread of "What's your age and your biggest worry" all the young people listed never being able to own anything like we all have.
The economy is changing and young people see the idea of the american dream becoming less and less attainable.

That could be part of an explanation, but why have they been directed to focus on something that makes little difference in that concern. It's like your kid saying "I'm worried I'll never be able to afford a house, so starting at age 13 I'm going to be doing 1000 pushups a day." Why would we be letting them break their brains and emotional well-being against something we all know is so misguided.

Someone (all of us to some extent I'm sure) are promoting or condoning the idea that getting into Duke rather than Appalachian state is going to make some huge difference in their financial security ten years from now. All the data and common knowledge shows that to not really be true.

In addition, if financial security was really driving this, 100% of these ultra-students would be pursuing computer science and engineering. The non-STEM departments at Stanford and USC would be collapsing. We know that's not true.
 
I have dealt with this at some level with both of my no pic kids due to their inherent desire to succeed. Oldest got a 34 on the ACT, ranked in the top 2% of her graduating class with a virtually all AP curriculum, 2 sport captain and was still very anxious/stressed that she had no shot at the Ivy League schools - basically too many kids exactly like her profile. It was tons of work to help her understand this did not matter. So why did she stress? Peers, the climate at her very well regarded public school, stories from people she respected, etc. As a parent you have to fight through all that.

As for those who say kids are slacking or are not tough? Well maybe in some regards, but it is not work ethic in my area. The course load, sports, part time jobs, etc that my kids and their friends pursue are serious commitments.
 
At some point we have to acknowledge that very few minds, by definition, are special. Very few degrees are special. The range of salaries that these degrees offer is not disparate for the bulk of people, and a degree is no more valuable on a whole than being a skilled tradesman. Encouraging kids to fight and stress over it is essentially pointless.
This is oversimplifying it by quite a bit. Statistically speaking, people with college degrees still make significantly more income than people without them. But that doesn't mean everyone needs to get a college degree to be happy. Many people will see far more success learning a trade than going to college.
 
School does not have the same rigor as when we all went to school. From elementary to college. No point in saying that to kids (trust me, I have) because it doesn't matter to them. They won't know any different.
 
I think the core issue to address is identity. Our society & culture teach kids that their self-worth is wrapped up in career/athletics/sex/fame so they put their personal identity in these areas. All of those are a total lie and recipe for disaster.

I think this is a big part of it, along with what @NDallasRuss was saying about:

One possibility she explored was that the most rigorous schools created an environment where kids worried too much about how they measured up to their peers in grades, activities, and college admissions.

I strongly believe there is some bigger cultural issue here, of which ultra-studying is just one component. I really believe this is just another reflection of the thing that is making kids need Tommy John surgery in the 9th grade. Why are many kids playing baseball 6 days a week year round now? Why are parents spending multi-thousands of dollars a year on voice lessons starting in kindergarten?

There is some kind of cultural need that has developed, and some reason why our generation fosters an atmosphere of competition and achievement among our kids that we never experienced or lived through as kids. None of us played 80 baseball games a season at 13 years old, why have we taken to it so enthusiastically with our kids?

It's very weird.

There's absolutely a snowball aspect to it, based on what other people are doing. To some extent it's just the culture and peer group around them. Obviously if your 10 year old is the best player on his rec baseball team, and he sees the other best players all starting travel ball, he's going to decide he wants to play travel ball, even without much concept of what it means, and what other alternatives his life might look like at 15 if he wasn't dedicated 35 hours a week to baseball. And as parents we are susceptible to that as well, we're just like "well, that's what they want".
 
I think this is a big part of it, along with what @NDallasRuss was saying about:

One possibility she explored was that the most rigorous schools created an environment where kids worried too much about how they measured up to their peers in grades, activities, and college admissions.

I strongly believe there is some bigger cultural issue here, of which ultra-studying is just one component. I really believe this is just another reflection of the thing that is making kids need Tommy John surgery in the 9th grade. Why are many kids playing baseball 6 days a week year round now? Why are parents spending multi-thousands of dollars a year on voice lessons starting in kindergarten?

There is some kind of cultural need that has developed, and some reason why our generation fosters an atmosphere of competition and achievement among our kids that we never experienced or lived through as kids. None of us played 80 baseball games a season at 13 years old, why have we taken to it so enthusiastically with our kids?

It's very weird.

There's absolutely a snowball aspect to it, based on what other people are doing. To some extent it's just the culture and peer group around them. Obviously if your 10 year old is the best player on his rec baseball team, and he sees the other best players all starting travel ball, he's going to decide he wants to play travel ball, even without much concept of what it means, and what other alternatives his life might look like at 15 if he wasn't dedicated 35 hours a week to baseball. And as parents we are susceptible to that as well, we're just like "well, that's what they want".

This is also very true when it comes to sports and music. The fun is starting to be zapped out of these sports.
 
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