The Atlantic: You Can’t Win Elections by Telling Voters Their Concerns Are Imaginary

[pjhawk]

All of those things have happened, more less. Whether or not they're happening in Virginia k-12 currently is a different question. Yes, they're due to the bizarre new religion on the left around race and identity. Yes, they think they're doing good. No, some of it is not good.

What the hell are you even talking about? "The Left"? Who are these people? And don't even think about citing some right wing nutcase like John McWhorter who's just part of the pack that's created and is propagating this imaginary issue.

The whole CRT hysteria is way more perfect then Caravans or the other usual bullshit, the right has been able to create this whole imaginary framework of rightwing paranoia and racism and call it CRT and get the yokels to freak out.

 

[BelemNole]

How is asking them what they are seeing that is so problematic playing into their propaganda? That's all I'm claiming should have been done by the VA gov dem nominee. You can address it in a way that actually challenges the claims.

And no, I don't think all the concern behind CRT here is propaganda or baseless, anyway. (I believe it was based on, largely, pointing out different bits of woke incursion into education and society)

I think the "big lie" here would be the actual threat posed by the woke shit that makes up the bulk of the CRT concerns. That's what I would challenge them on. (but other than CRT being slung around a bunch, I don't understand much about the specifics of what they're arguing about.

Maybe we should start by asking if you know what CRT actually is. Since you keep using that phrase "woke shit" I'm guessing the answer is "no."

 

[artradley]

Point was to engage them on their concerns. Which means asking them what they are and trying to understand them. Rather than saying it's not a problem because choice of language to describe the problem is inaccurate. That was a bad tactic.

The GOP has a winning message saying Global Warming is imaginary.

If CRT isn't the right term, I'm totally open to a new name for what IS in schools, that's comprised of:

1) reframing all of American history as a single exercise in white supremacy
2) having students break up into affinity groups and resegregating classrooms and student orgs
3) forcing elementary students to confront their toxic whiteness, and their complicity in white supremacy
4) telling minority students that merit and meritocracy is a lie and that they are structurally inhibited from acheivement
5) teaching students that concepts like the written word, objectively correct answers, punctuality, completing assignments, etc are tools of white supremacy, and instituting school policy to reflect such
6) eliminating honors tracks, gifted programs and AP courses in the name of equity

That's the kind of thing opponents have chosen to label CRT. So if that's not "CRT", what shall we call the things in that bucket? Somehow, I don't see any liberals jumping in to name it, because then they wouldn't be able to insist it's imaginary.

It works great for liberals, because they don't have to actually defend any of it, they can just say "You're technically using the definition of CRT wrong, so it doesn't exist."

How much of any of that is any child actually exposed to? Are you in schools examining their curriculum?

 

[JRHawk2003]

All of those things have happened, more less. Whether or not they're happening in Virginia k-12 currently is a different question. Yes, they're due to the bizarre new religion on the left around race and identity. Yes, they think they're doing good. No, some of it is not good.

Where has the "left" instituted this?

 

[Huey Grey]

What the Rs are doing is a marvel the behold. They've managed to make an entire election about something that doesn't exist, and then will try to get reelected for ending this imaginary menace.

 

[hawkland14]

Boy the libs in this thread sure are complaining a lot in this thread. Playing the victim card quite well. Did something happen last night that is making you guys so upset?

 

[Huey Grey]

Boy the libs in this thread sure a complaining a lot in this thread. Playing the victim card quite well. Did something happen last night that is making you guys so upset?

Yes. Conspiracy theorists won office. The real question is why you are celebrating this?

 

[24 so far]

a country where a person like Trump is elected twice is a country I want nothing to do with. I already find the majority of people in this country to be insufferable fools and morons, not to mention too many gun loving racist lunatics, but a 2nd Trump term would be the final straw. Democracy and decency would be dead if there was a 2nd Trump term, look at the damage just one term did.

is she wrong? the uncomfortable truth is there are a LOT of racist people in this country and the courts, police, banking system, housing market, etc were built with racism in mind. It doesn't just go away. Its sad when white people are offended that people of color are fed up with racism.

If I were you, an idiot Liberal in other words, I'd get out while you still can. Tick. Tick. Tick. Tick.

 

[z_ape]

Where has the "left" instituted this?

Ok, the progressive left. Diversity training and the like throughout the country. Some schools. You have organizations that pledge to be 'anti-racist' then they grab some of this material and away they go.

 

[JRHawk2003]

Ok, the progressive left. Diversity training and the like throughout the country. Some schools. You have organizations that pledge to be 'anti-racist' then they grab some of this material and away they go.

Who? Really?

This is a boogeyman.

Corporate diversity training? Govt isnt forcing that.

 

[z_ape]

Maybe we should start by asking if you know what CRT actually is. Since you keep using that phrase "woke shit" I'm guessing the answer is "no."

lolwut

The whole point of the article of the article and what I was saying hinged upon realizing that that no, they're not using the word in its original form. Of course I understand that. I could google a definition for you.

When I say "woke shit" I'm referring to what they -- how the people on the right -- are using it.

They're associating CRT with woke shit. (as I call it)

The author of the article points this out and gives you links to some woke shit.

Here's the woke shit from the article. I could link more woke shit. But this is an example cited by the author of woke shit.

In some elementary and middle schools, students are now being asked to place themselves on a scale of privilege based on such attributes as their skin color. History lessons in some high schools teach that racism is not just a persistent reality but the defining feature of America. And some school systems have even embraced ideas that spread pernicious prejudices about nonwhite people, as when a presentation to principals of New York City public schools denounced virtues such as “perfectionism” or the “worship of the written word” as elements of “white-supremacy culture.

We could have a big thread of woke shit. We could talk about all the woke shit and debate its relative merits.

My point was that the right spent a lot of time talking about woke shit. They ended up giving it the label of CRT.

Instead of calling it woke shit Christopher Rufo thought it would be a good idea to call it CRT. He deduced that much of theory underlying this woke shit could be traced back to critical race theory -- the actual academic theory. They didn't have a name for woke shit so they landed on CRT because of Rufo.

Go read the origin story:

How a Conservative Activist Invented the Conflict Over Critical Race Theory

To Christopher Rufo, a term for a school of legal scholarship looked like the perfect weapon.

www.newyorker.com

NOW... how much actual woke shit is going on in Virginia schools, I have no idea. Tucker Carlson and the like could have worked them into a frenzy over the "threat" of woke shit without there being an appreciable level of woke shit. I'm not saying all of their shit makes sense.

Only that CRT, on the right, right now, is associated with (some) woke shit which I find to be problematic.

Make sense?

 

[z_ape]

Who? Really?

This is a boogeyman.

Corporate diversity training? Govt isnt forcing that.

Of course it's not the government. I never said it was. I mean, there's government mandated stuff for government employees, but that's it. (Trump of course nixed some of the diversity training requirements, I'm sure Biden brought them back -- Trump was right, there)

 

[ANYCHawk]

When Biden beat Trump, I thought there's no way Trump would run again, despite his massive ego. I truly believed the Dems would do well enough that Trump would be pushed aside. Now it's apparent the disaster named Biden has let Trump back into the game. Now my only hope is that someone in the GOP steps forward to challenge Trump after the midterms, and beyond.

This post igores a major part of the problem.

Well i guess it does mostly, the last line tries. The GOP let trump stay around by not going after Jan.6 this guy is dangerous and nearly got us all killed. Please stop supporting him we are. They had the world's easiest out. They started to take it on Jan. 7. On Jan. 8, 90 percent of the GOP was like "what riot?"

If they had stood up and said no on Jan. 7 he'd be nothing more than a newsmax celebrity and third party candidate. Instead the GOP is so worried that like everybody who likes trump will stay home (they won't) that they just keep catering towards his BS.

 

[BelemNole]

lolwut

The whole point of the article of the article and what I was saying hinged upon realizing that that no, they're not using the word in its original form. Of course I understand that. I could google a definition for you.

When I say "woke shit" I'm referring to what they -- how the people on the right -- are using it.

They're associating CRT with woke shit. (as I call it)

The author of the article points this out and gives you links to some woke shit.

Here's the woke shit from the article. I could link more woke shit. But this is an example cited by the author of woke shit.



We could have a big thread of woke shit. We could talk about all the woke shit and debate its relative merits.

My point was that the right spent a lot of time talking about woke shit. They ended up giving it the label of CRT.

Instead of calling it woke shit Christopher Rufo thought it would be a good idea to call it CRT. He deduced that much of theory underlying this woke shit could be traced back to critical race theory -- the actual academic theory. They didn't have a name for woke shit so they landed on CRT because of Rufo.

Go read the origin story:

How a Conservative Activist Invented the Conflict Over Critical Race Theory

To Christopher Rufo, a term for a school of legal scholarship looked like the perfect weapon.

www.newyorker.com

NOW... how much actual woke shit is going on in Virginia schools, I have no idea. Tucker Carlson and the like could have worked them into a frenzy over the "threat" of woke shit without there being an appreciable level of woke shit. I'm not saying all of their shit makes sense.

Only that CRT, on the right, right now, is associated with (some) woke shit which I find to be problematic.

Make sense?

How is this different than what they've been doing for the past 30+ years? Find a boogey-man term, assign scary doomsday scenarios to it, then exaggerate everything that the left does to fall under it.
They've been doing it forever because their voters are dumb enough to fall for it every time. The solution would be voters who don't fall for the same stupid trick year in and year out, but that seems unlikely. And they've dismantled all the safeguards in the news to prevent them from being more blatant each year.
And every time this comes up somehow it's the lefts responsibility to fix this shit. "Gosh, the right has been shitting all over the place again - how come you guys haven't cleaned it up yet? You're going to lose if you don't clean up their shit!!"

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

In some elementary and middle schools, students are now being asked to place themselves on a scale of privilege based on such attributes as their skin color. History lessons in some high schools teach that racism is not just a persistent reality but the defining feature of America. And some school systems have even embraced ideas that spread pernicious prejudices about nonwhite people, as when a presentation to principals of New York City public schools denounced virtues such as “perfectionism” or the “worship of the written word” as elements of “white-supremacy culture.”

Effective opponents of these developments, such as Youngkin, explicitly acknowledge the importance of teaching students about the history of slavery and even the injustices that many minority groups continue to face today. They do not pretend that grade schoolers are reading academic articles. Instead, they focus the ire of many parents on curricular content that can fairly be described as popularized, less sophisticated cousins of critical race theory.

Youngkin’s victory is a kind of road map that other Republicans can use to run successful campaigns over the coming years. To respond effectively, Democrats will have to stop dismissing concerns over curricular content as “fake outrage.”

Read: The GOP’s ‘critical race theory’ obsession

That leaves Democrats with two principal options. They could defend the need to teach students ideas that are rooted in critical race theory, arguing that an unrelentingly bleak view of American history or a depiction of contemporary America as still defined by omnipresent forms of structural racism are accurate reflections of reality. Personally, I have substantive disagreements with this view as well as deep concerns about how popular such a message is likely to prove. But an open defense of the need to make radical changes to the way students are taught about the history and the nature of their country would at least stand a chance of persuading some voters and have the virtue of treating them like adults.

Alternatively, Democrats could become more willing to disavow curricular content that is incendiary or misguided. Exercises that ask elementary-school students to rate themselves on a scale of privilege or presentations that imply that Black people are somehow less interested in the written word may be relatively rare. But voters who worry about them are much more likely to be reassured by politicians who are willing to condemn them than by those who pretend they don’t exist. Doing so is both right and expedient.

Regardless of the choice Democrats make, they should, at the same time, denounce Republican plans to prohibit teachers from discussing ideas that might make their students uncomfortable as illiberal assaults on free speech that will lead to unacceptable forms of overreach. In the coming years, the introduction of such laws—which Youngkin favors—is likely to lead to a significant number of teachers who are unfairly punished for doing their job. If Democrats manage to decry such injustices while simultaneously distancing themselves from the most unpopular content now being taught at schools, public opinion will probably be on their side.

But the one option that is both intellectually dishonest and electorally disastrous is to insist on a verbal trick unworthy of a middle-school debate team: to keep claiming that widespread concern over these ideas is misguided because the term by which they have publicly come to be known technically applies to an academic research program rather than the lessons that real children are being taught in real schools. And yet, this is precisely what McAuliffe and so many others attempted to do—with disastrous results—over the closing months of his campaign.

For anybody who cares about making sure that Donald Trump does not become the 47th president of the United States, it is crucial that Democrats avoid repeating the mistakes that just put a Republican in Virginia’s governor’s mansion. It is impossible to win elections by telling voters that their concerns are imaginary. If Democrats keep doing so, they will keep losing.

Agree with authors assessment.

 

[z_ape]

How is this different than what they've been doing for the past 30+ years? Find a boogey-man term, assign scary doomsday scenarios to it, then exaggerate everything that the left does to fall under it.
They've been doing it forever because their voters are dumb enough to fall for it every time. The solution would be voters who don't fall for the same stupid trick year in and year out, but that seems unlikely. And they've dismantled all the safeguards in the news to prevent them from being more blatant each year.
And every time this comes up somehow it's the lefts responsibility to fix this shit. "Gosh, the right has been shitting all over the place again - how come you guys haven't cleaned it up yet? You're going to lose if you don't clean up their shit!!"

Eh, I mentioned more than once that they could be exaggerating. I'm making no claims they didn't. I mean, that's how guys like Tucker make their living. And media in general is trending that way because it's really profitable, which is sad.

I just wanted to point out that I thought there were legitimate concerns people held when they talked about CRT.

Not that they weren't exaggerating, or acting a fool in this scenario, relative to what Virginia was actually doing.

One thing none of us, apparently, have done is actually dig into whatever the hell it was exactly that parents were so outraged about in Virginia.

 

[JRHawk2003]

Agree with authors assessment.

I am waiting to be shown the actual school district that is doing this.

This is Internet fiction. Like most of American life today.

 

[JRHawk2003]

Eh, I mentioned more than once that they could be exaggerating. I'm making no claims they didn't. I mean, that's how guys like Tucker make their living. And media in general is trending that way because it's really profitable, which is sad.

I just wanted to point out that I thought there were legitimate concerns people held when they talked about CRT.

Not that they weren't exaggerating, or acting a fool in this scenario, relative to what Virginia was actually doing.

One thing none of us, apparently, have done is actually dig into whatever the hell it was exactly that parents were so outraged about in Virginia.

Its COVID. People hate the masking stuff and right or wrong are just done with it.

 

[z_ape]

Its COVID. People hate the masking stuff and right or wrong are just done with it.

Yoooo, @shank hawk, get a load of this. CRT is actually Covid.

 

[TheCainer]

Except that - per ALL of the "Election Fraud" claims - THEIR CONCERNS ACTUALLY ARE IMAGINARY!!!!

I guess this means the Dems will now have to join the world of alternate reality, or, maybe start their own.

Let's see who can become the craziest and that the voters will still support.

What a country.

 

[z_ape]

I am waiting to be shown the actual school district that is doing this.

This is Internet fiction. Like most of American life today.

You'll find documents from Virginia schools and the department of education that reference the sort of thing they're worried about making its way into schooling.

However, what was actually taught, I have no idea.

 

[C/Seahawk]

If I were you, an idiot Liberal in other words, I'd get out while you still can. Tick. Tick. Tick. Tick.

haha. Grew up in a conservative household. for nearly 20 years generally voted along GOP lines up until 2008. In the past 12+ years it was clear I could not stand for a party that embraced Sarah Palin, conspiracy theories, birther conspiracies, Tea Party, Donald Trump, Mitch McConnell, Qanon, the Big Lie, Fox propaganda and racist fear mongering as their platform. Your party attempted to overthrow democracy and is continuing in those efforts.

you do you though

 

[Rudolph]

The 1619 project is in schools.....

Oiooooh sssssccary

 

[Finance85]

This post igores a major part of the problem.

Well i guess it does mostly, the last line tries. The GOP let trump stay around by not going after Jan.6 this guy is dangerous and nearly got us all killed. Please stop supporting him we are. They had the world's easiest out. They started to take it on Jan. 7. On Jan. 8, 90 percent of the GOP was like "what riot?"

If they had stood up and said no on Jan. 7 he'd be nothing more than a newsmax celebrity and third party candidate. Instead the GOP is so worried that like everybody who likes trump will stay home (they won't) that they just keep catering towards his BS.

No, it doesn't ignore a major part of the problem. January 6th was definitely a problem, but it's being addressed by the individuals who participated. I stand by what I said at the time, and that was Trump should have been arrested for inciting a riot. All that aside, the only people I see who are obsessed with January 6th are on the left. Chis loves keeping his January 6 thread alive. People are being prosecuted. It's highly unlikely the voters for Lt. Governor in VA gave any thought to Trump when they cast their vote.

Trump is a bully who thrives on exploiting perceived weakness. Biden is giving Trump an opening that Trump might not otherwise have. Unless something changes, our choices in 2024 will be even worse than our choices in 2020 and 2016. Dem and GOP voters need to fix that, but they won't unless they take an honest look at what's happening. There are many threads here, on various topics, that show even bright and educated people refuse to take an hones look at much of anything. It's team politics at all costs.

 

[JRHawk2003]

No, it doesn't ignore a major part of the problem. January 6th was definitely a problem, but it's being addressed by the individuals who participated. I stand by what I said at the time, and that was Trump should have been arrested for inciting a riot. All that aside, the only people I see who are obsessed with January 6th are on the left. Chis loves keeping his January 6 thread alive. People are being prosecuted. It's highly unlikely the voters for Lt. Governor in VA gave any thought to Trump when they cast their vote.

Trump is a bully who thrives on exploiting perceived weakness. Biden is giving Trump an opening that Trump might not otherwise have. Unless something changes, our choices in 2024 will be even worse than our choices in 2020 and 2016. Dem and GOP voters need to fix that, but they won't unless they take an honest look at what's happening. There are many threads here, on various topics, that show even bright and educated people refuse to take an hones look at much of anything. It's team politics at all costs.

Enlighten us on what we should be taking an honest look at.

Many of us have written here over and over what crap Citizen's United it. That is what needs to be fixed.

Politics are bought and paid for. That is the honest assessment.

 

[Finance85]

Enlighten us on what we should be taking an honest look at.

Many of us have written here over and over what crap Citizen's United it. That is what needs to be fixed.

Politics are bought and paid for. That is the honest assessment.

You are involved in many of those threads. Look at any of them where you've ridiculed someone without trying to have a discussion about why they think the way they do.

 

[C/Seahawk]

No, it doesn't ignore a major part of the problem. January 6th was definitely a problem, but it's being addressed by the individuals who participated. I stand by what I said at the time, and that was Trump should have been arrested for inciting a riot. All that aside, the only people I see who are obsessed with January 6th are on the left. Chis loves keeping his January 6 thread alive. People are being prosecuted. It's highly unlikely the voters for Lt. Governor in VA gave any thought to Trump when they cast their vote.

Trump is a bully who thrives on exploiting perceived weakness. Biden is giving Trump an opening that Trump might not otherwise have. Unless something changes, our choices in 2024 will be even worse than our choices in 2020 and 2016. Dem and GOP voters need to fix that, but they won't unless they take an honest look at what's happening. There are many threads here, on various topics, that show even bright and educated people refuse to take an hones look at much of anything. It's team politics at all costs.

Reports suggest at least 8 republicans who attended the Jan 6th insurrection were elected into office earlier this week. Seems to me a lot of people either don't care or are complicit and support the insurrection. How is that addressing the problem? Millions of morons, racists and greedy bastards support the insurrection and we are seeing that confirmed by elections that took place earlier this week. The threat is still very real. If what you say is true, that being the only people that care or are obsessed with Jan 6th are on the left, that speaks volumes to the troubles that remain. Both sides should be appalled and still obsessed with what happened until those responsible are brought to justice. Millions were apparently ok with the attempted coup and will continue to support those that took part in it. So much for standing for the constitution.

 

[JRHawk2003]

You are involved in many of those threads. Look at any of them where you've ridiculed someone without trying to have a discussion about why they think the way they do.

Well generally I don't look at HROT as a forum to solve problems. A) It can't really and B) Some of the issues cant be addressed frankly.