The Pandemic Erased Two Decades of Progress in Math and Reading

obfuscating

HR Heisman
Jan 8, 2016
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I don’t doubt this - but do you know of any links or studies showing small / private schools have performed significantly better than public schools? I did a cursory Google search once and couldn’t find anything definitive. If you know of something definitive and could save me some time searching, I’d appreciate it.
When there is in-person learning it's been proven to at least maintain the knowledge and usually results in improving knowledge.

Links to what I could find on a quick search since you asked:

Pv vs Pb performance - https://www.highschoolofamerica.com/why-private-schools-perform-better-than-public-schools/

Pv vs Pb pandemic attendance - https://www.cato.org/policy-analysi...d-19-how-private-sector-has-fared-how-keep-it
 

Joes Place

HR King
Aug 28, 2003
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Would you like to talk about your projection of 2.5 million dead Americans in the first year?
Would you like to recognize that my statement referred to NO mitigations in place?
We're at 1.1M with mitigations.
 

Gimmered

HR Legend
Nov 9, 2005
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My kids didn’t miss a day of in person school in the 2020-2021 school year or since and 100% of the teachers are still here and fine. Your fearmongering has been proven wrong all over the nation at private schools who haven’t missed a beat. Sorry.
My youngest was out on Spring Break when they shut down for the remainder of their 19-20 school year, Has never missed a day since due to COVID.
 
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Hawki97

HR Heisman
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Dec 16, 2001
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When there is in-person learning it's been proven to at least maintain the knowledge and usually results in improving knowledge.

Links to what I could find on a quick search since you asked:

Pv vs Pb performance - https://www.highschoolofamerica.com/why-private-schools-perform-better-than-public-schools/

Pv vs Pb pandemic attendance - https://www.cato.org/policy-analysi...d-19-how-private-sector-has-fared-how-keep-it

Yeah, I’ve seen similar info before. I may just have to wait. I’m really looking forward to data that shows say 2019-22/3 test scores broken down by something like “months in school” vs. “months out of school” so you could definitively show through data that kids who where in-school performed better. To me it’s not a public or private question as much as it’s an in/out of classroom comparison - which those options were clearly driven by Covid response / policy decisions. I may just need to be patient as all the data probably isn’t available (going to ‘23 is probably the best bet) and people haven’t carved it up that way yet. I have no doubt there will be a big gap. How big is what I’d like to see.
 

LBoogie28

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Feb 5, 2007
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No, I've actually argued for science, which means looking at all information and data to prove or disprove a hypothesis.
Bullsh…

80% of the people getting COVID had no symptoms or mild symptoms. Those having symptoms had at least 2 comorbidities.

It takes a high level of arrogance to call people stupid while taking a position that could turn out to be wrong, especially based on the track record of those pushing the narrative.
 
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tarheelbybirth

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*sigh* In 2015 on PISA tests...the supposed gold standard for international testing...the US was middle of the pack. Again. #31 out of 70. *gasp* US education sucks!!!

Here's the thing. When you look at the scores of our schools with a free/reduced lunch population that's less than 25% of the total student body, the US was first in the world...#1...the BEST...in reading AND science and #3 in math. Our aggregate score for those schools smoked everyone. In the whole world (that takes the PISA test).

The scores of our schools with a free/reduced lunch population greater than 75%...they're abysmal. Bottom of the scale. Turrible. It's those scores that pull the US down. And the child poverty rate in the US is one of the highest in the world among developed nations. Truly pathetic for the wealthiest country the world has ever seen.

And the funny (not funny) part is the folks on here reporting breathlessly about the impact of Covid don't say shit about that. They weren't here in 2016 claiming we were failing our must vulnerable children. They. Did. Not. Give. A. Fvck. The data is crystal clear...you want to help kids impacted by Covid...deal with childhood poverty. Until you make a true committment to that, you're simply shoveling horseshit.
 
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SB_SB

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Apr 4, 2006
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Wouldn’t have lost as many as the number of suicidally depressed kids that were created by locking them out.
That's not the teachers fault and certainly not the teachers responsibility to risk death. One thing that has come out of the pandemic is that many of you have this thought that teachers are responsible for more than teaching but yet many of you claim they're over paid.

If you're so concerned about the kids, start support groups.
 
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SB_SB

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You do realize the cdc has now completely fallen back to a " people should take the best precautions for themselves" stance right? The exact thing Republicans have been saying all along? Go get yourself another booster, dipshit.

You do realize the virus has changed since the initial variants and initially we didn't have the vaccine. Stop trying to act like the start of the pandemic is the same as it is now.
 

SB_SB

HR Heisman
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My kids didn’t miss a day of in person school in the 2020-2021 school year or since and 100% of the teachers are still here and fine. Your fearmongering has been proven wrong all over the nation at private schools who haven’t missed a beat. Sorry.

So are you saying that no one died from covid?
 
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FAUlty Gator

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So are you saying that no one died from covid?
No. I’m saying Joe’s “we’re all gonna die” schtick he’s been promulgating for the last three years is stupid and irresponsible and has caused a generation of kids to be behind the curve educationally and socially.
 
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Finance85

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Oct 22, 2003
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Would you like to recognize that my statement referred to NO mitigations in place?
We're at 1.1M with mitigations.
You keep up the same drivel. Did you think there would be no mitigations? Why didn't you continuously post a number that included assumptions about mitigations?
 

FAUlty Gator

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Oct 27, 2017
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That's not the teachers fault and certainly not the teachers responsibility to risk death. One thing that has come out of the pandemic is that many of you have this thought that teachers are responsible for more than teaching but yet many of you claim they're over paid.

If you're so concerned about the kids, start support groups.
I'm a teacher. Sorry. Not sure your schtick is working here with whatever it is you're trying to do.
 

FAUlty Gator

HR Legend
Oct 27, 2017
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That's not the teachers fault and certainly not the teachers responsibility to risk death. One thing that has come out of the pandemic is that many of you have this thought that teachers are responsible for more than teaching but yet many of you claim they're over paid.

If you're so concerned about the kids, start support groups.
You must not have been around here or have chosen to forget that when schools like ours were staying open, we did the work to make sure things were safe (temperature checks, staggered release, spread out lunch times, and classroom desks, masks mandates, etc.) and efficient and there were plenty of people (some in this thread) saying "it won't work" and that it's best to just stay home instead of try. Again, they've been proven wrong.
 

SB_SB

HR Heisman
Apr 4, 2006
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You must not have been around here or have chosen to forget that when schools like ours were staying open, we did the work to make sure things were safe (temperature checks, staggered release, spread out lunch times, and classroom desks, masks mandates, etc.) and efficient and there were plenty of people (some in this thread) saying "it won't work" and that it's best to just stay home instead of try. Again, they've been proven wrong.

Let's be honest, you took a chance when you stayed opened. You had no proof that what you were doing would work. No one has been proven wrong or proven right. I had a friend who thought he was doing everything right too, but now he's dead. For you to think you had the right answer at the start of the pandemic is absolutely laughable and you should be laughing at yourself.
 

FAUlty Gator

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Let's be honest, you took a chance when you stayed opened. You had no proof that what you were doing would work. No one has been proven wrong or proven right. I had a friend who thought he was doing everything right too, but now he's dead. For you to think you had the right answer at the start of the pandemic is absolutely laughable and you should be laughing at yourself.
Of course we took a chance. It was understood that staying home would harm our students, so we decided to be pro-active in preventing that. I mean, how could you not know that was the case? We stil have people in denial of this. Amazing.

We went week by week. And as we went, we got better at it and more familiar with it and learned what worked and what didn't. We had protocols and "If/ Then" scenarios at the ready. You know...adult problem solving shit. We didn't sit on our hands and cry "It'll never work! It's not safe! The kids won't wear masks! We need to stay home until whenever we get tired of it!"

The fact that the schools who took responsible precautions and stayed open, now have kids that are now miles ahead of those who didn't...both educationally, socially and emotionally. But go ahead and pretend that "not going back until we have new ventilation in all classrooms and spend billions of dollars" was the way to go. Be like Joes and the rest. Just double and triple down on nonsense that is provably wrong.

Kids and teachers are still getting COVID all over the country. Why aren't you advocating keeping the schools shut down? Still wiping down your groceries? Maybe because you know now what you weren't willing to learn two years ago.
 
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SB_SB

HR Heisman
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Of course we took a chance. It was understood that staying home would harm our students, so we decided to be pro-active in preventing that. I mean, how could you not know that was the case? We stil have people in denial of this. Amazing.

We went week by week. And as we went, we got better at it and more familiar with it and learned what worked and what didn't. We had protocols and "If/ Then" scenarios at the ready. You know...adult problem solving shit. We didn't sit on our hands and cry "It'll never work! It's not safe! The kids won't wear masks! We need to stay home until whenever we get tired of it!"

The fact that the schools who took responsible precautions and stayed open, now have kids that are now miles ahead of those who didn't...both educationally, socially and emotionally. But go ahead and pretend that "not going back until we have new ventilation in all classrooms and spend billions of dollars" was the way to go. Be like Joes and the rest. Just double and triple down on nonsense that is provably wrong.

Kids and teachers are still getting COVID all over the country. Why aren't you advocating keeping the schools shut down? Still wiping down your groceries? Maybe because you know now what you weren't willing to learn two years ago.

You took a chance with people's lives when you didn't know enough to make that decision. You can try to justify it however you want but you put people at risk. Consider yourself lucky.

As a teacher you should know you can't learn something until it's been taught or experienced. My view on the pandemic changes as the virus changes and as I learn more. I don't question or second guess anything I did back then because I know the most important things was to protect lives (especially my family). The virus today doesn't seem to be a deadly as the early variants. We also have the vaccine to protect people. Keep pumping your chest, like you had all the answers when the pandemic hit, but know that some day your decision may destroy families and one might actually be your own. That friend of mine that died, left two boys without a single parent (their mom died 8 years ago of cancer).
 
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tarheelbybirth

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No. I’m saying Joe’s “we’re all gonna die” schtick he’s been promulgating for the last three years is stupid and irresponsible and has caused a generation of kids to be behind the curve educationally and socially.
And in the largest "experiment" run, Sweden kept the upper level teachers remote while keeping lower secondary students and teachers in school. Those in school were twice as likely to contract Covid as their remote peers. They were 30% more likely to transmit that to someone in their home.
 
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TailgateTom

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My daughter was a struggling reader entering 2nd grade and began the pandemic in the 15th(ish) percentile. We kept her home during that time and and I worked with her. When she went back in person in the spring she was in the 50-60th percentile. Today as a 4th grader she's in the 80th percentile. It's not so much about the virtual learning as it was parents that were willing to work with their kids, IMO. I saw first hand the unwillingness to do so.
 

tarheelbybirth

HR King
Apr 17, 2003
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Kids and teachers are still getting COVID all over the country. Why aren't you advocating keeping the schools shut down? Still wiping down your groceries? Maybe because you know now what you weren't willing to learn two years ago.
LOL...I'll post this again. Generation after generation after generation of kids have been "left behind" because of poverty. Children who can't get decent food. Children without access to adequate health care. Children in school buildings that are literally falling apart. And the solution has been "Not my problem. Their parents need to pull themselves up by their own (non-existent) bootstraps".

And NOW you're concerned because a period of shutdown might have affected THIS generation? Curious. Where was this concern for children being left behind before Covid? Methinks I know the answer to that question. Here's the solution...their parents need to get them tutoring and whatever other interventions are required to "catch them up". Grab their kids' bootstraps and pull them up to whatever the goal is. This is on the parents.

Am I doing that right?
 
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FAUlty Gator

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LOL...I'll post this again. Generation after generation after generation of kids have been "left behind" because of poverty. Children who can't get decent food. Children without access to adequate health care. Children in school buildings that are literally falling apart. And the solution has been "Not my problem. Their parents need to pull themselves up by their own (non-existent) bootstraps".

And NOW you're concerned because a period of shutdown might have affected THIS generation? Curious. Where was this concern for children being left behind before Covid? Methinks I know the answer to that question. Here's the solution...their parents need to get them tutoring and whatever other interventions are required to "catch them up". Grab their kids' bootstraps and pull them up to whatever the goal is. This is on the parents.

Am I doing that right?
I've always been concerned for kids my entire adult life. Especially the underprivileged ones. Your assumptions suck ass. You just happen to know that you were one of the fearmongering idiots arguing against opening the schools and crying that safety procedures wouldn't work (I remember it well and did my best not to name you as one of the fools), so you feel the need to throw this stupid shit against the wall to distract from it.
 

tarheelbybirth

HR King
Apr 17, 2003
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I've always been concerned for kids my entire adult life. Especially the underprivileged ones. Your assumptions suck ass. You just happen to know that you were one of the fearmongering idiots arguing against opening the schools and crying that safety procedures wouldn't work (I remember it well and did my best not to name you as one of the fools), so you feel the need to throw this stupid shit against the wall to distract from it.
And I just presented you with data showing that being in school doubled a teacher's chances of developing Covid and increased their chances of taking it home to their family by 30%. And I remember better than you because I stated that I would be in school as soon as it was allowed. I left it up to the folks looking at the science and actually stated that I would prefer to be in school with the students because remote learning sucked. I also said that cramming 30+ students in a room was NOT conducive to controlling the spread of Covid...do you disagree?

Now that we have that out of the way, you are now aware that the problem of children left behind by poverty absolutely DWARFS the issues associated with any lockdowns...by many orders of magnitude. It is absolutely monumental compared to what you're complaining about now. I fully expect to see all the other concerned citizens in this thread going absolutely apocalytic on that any day now.

I've shared this same info multiple times...going back to 2016 in the Search and it was shared prior to that year. Nary a peep from the people so concerned NOW. It's almost like they aren't really concerned about children being left behind educationally and are, instead, looking to score cheap political points. Curious, huh?

So much bad information...so little time.

The United States spends way more per student on education that most any other country. Yet, we are about 30th in student achievement, even behind several 3rd world countries.

Incorrect.

Because social class inequality is greater in the United States than in any of the countries with which we can reasonably be compared, the relative performance of U.S. adolescents is better than it appears when countries’ national average performance is conventionally compared.
  • Because in every country, students at the bottom of the social class distribution perform worse than students higher in that distribution, U.S. average performance appears to be relatively low partly because we have so many more test takers from the bottom of the social class distribution.
  • If U.S. adolescents had a social class distribution that was similar to the distribution in countries to which the United States is frequently compared, average reading scores in the United States would be higher than average reading scores in the similar post-industrial countries we examined (France, Germany, and the United Kingdom), and average math scores in the United States would be about the same as average math scores in similar post-industrial countries.
  • A re-estimated U.S. average PISA score that adjusted for a student population in the United States that is more disadvantaged than populations in otherwise similar post-industrial countries, and for the over-sampling of students from the most-disadvantaged schools in a recent U.S. international assessment sample, finds that the U.S. average score in both reading and mathematics would be higher than official reports indicate (in the case of mathematics, substantially higher).
  • This re-estimate would also improve the U.S. place in the international ranking of all OECD countries, bringing the U.S. average score to sixth in reading and 13th in math. Conventional ranking reports based on PISA, which make no adjustments for social class composition or for sampling errors, and which rank countries irrespective of whether score differences are large enough to be meaningful, report that the U.S. average score is 14th in reading and 25th in math.
  • Disadvantaged and lower-middle-class U.S. students perform better (and in most cases, substantially better) than comparable students in similar post-industrial countries in reading. In math, disadvantaged and lower-middle-class U.S. students perform about the same as comparable students in similar post-industrial countries.
  • At all points in the social class distribution, U.S. students perform worse, and in many cases substantially worse, than students in a group of top-scoring countries (Canada, Finland, and Korea). Although controlling for social class distribution would narrow the difference in average scores between these countries and the United States, it would not eliminate it.
  • U.S. students from disadvantaged social class backgrounds perform better relative to their social class peers in the three similar post-industrial countries than advantaged U.S. students perform relative to their social class peers. But U.S. students from advantaged social class backgrounds perform better relative to their social class peers in the top-scoring countries of Finland and Canada than disadvantaged U.S. students perform relative to their social class peers.
  • On average, and for almost every social class group, U.S. students do relatively better in reading than in math, compared to students in both the top-scoring and the similar post-industrial countries.

The United States has never...EVER...been at the top of the heap in education. Thirteen countries took the very first test in math designed to "compare" countries waaaay back in 1964 - the supposed golden age of education. The US finished 12th.
The kids attending affluent public schools where free/reduced is less than 10% of the population beat the best in the world by a large margin. In fact, the kids attending schools where between 10% and 25% of the kids are on free/reduced lunch finish third in the world on PISA standardized tests. They're fine right where they are. Kids in schools where free/reduced is between 25% and 50% of the school population? Top ten in the world on PISA testing. They're fine right where they are.
Now...let's look at PISA scores. Our low poverty public schools with less that 10% of their students on free/reduced lunch beat the entire world...AINEC. Our schools with a poverty rate between 10% and 25% finish third in the world. Our schools with a poverty rate between 25% and 50% are in the top ten in the world. You don't like partitioning our schools like that? Finland - which was lauded as a top performer - has a child poverty rate for the ENTIRE COUNTRY of less than 5%. Here, it's nearly 25%. There is NO school in Finland that would fall outside our highest performers...and our highest performers beat Finland like a drum.
 
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Jul 21, 2022
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The results of a national test showed just how devastating the last two years have been for 9-year-old schoolchildren, especially the most vulnerable.


National test results released on Thursday showed in stark terms the pandemic’s devastating effects on American schoolchildren, with the performance of 9-year-olds in math and reading dropping to the levels from two decades ago.

This year, for the first time since the National Assessment of Educational Progress tests began tracking student achievement in the 1970s, 9-year-olds lost ground in math, and scores in reading fell by the largest margin in more than 30 years.

The declines spanned almost all races and income levels and were markedly worse for the lowest-performing students. While top performers in the 90th percentile showed a modest drop — three points in math — students in the bottom 10th percentile dropped by 12 points in math, four times the impact.

“I was taken aback by the scope and the magnitude of the decline,” said Peggy G. Carr, commissioner of the National Center for Education Statistics, the federal agency that administered the exam earlier this year. The tests were given to a national sample of 14,800 9-year-olds and were compared with the results of tests taken by the same age group in early 2020, just before the pandemic took hold in the United States.

High and low performers had been diverging even before the pandemic, but now, “the students at the bottom are dropping faster,” Dr. Carr said.

In math, Black students lost 13 points, compared with five points among white students, widening the gap between the two groups. Research has documented the profound effect school closures had on low-income students and on Black and Hispanic students, in part because their schools were more likely to continue remote learning for longer periods of time.

The declines in test scores mean that while many 9-year-olds can demonstrate partial understanding of what they are reading, fewer can infer a character’s feelings from what they have read. In math, students may know simple arithmetic facts, but fewer can add fractions with common denominators.

The setbacks could have powerful consequences for a generation of children who must move beyond basics in elementary school to thrive later on.

“Student test scores, even starting in first, second and third grade, are really quite predictive of their success later in school, and their educational trajectories overall,” said Susanna Loeb, the director of the Annenberg Institute at Brown University, which focuses on education inequality.

“The biggest reason to be concerned is the lower achievement of the lower-achieving kids,” she added. Being so far behind, she said, could lead to disengagement in school, making it less likely that they graduate from high school or attend college.

The National Assessment of Educational Progress is considered a gold standard in testing. Unlike state tests, it is standardized across the country, has remained consistent over time and makes no attempt to hold individual schools accountable for results, which experts believe makes it more reliable.

The test results offered a snapshot for just one age group: 9-year-olds, who are typically in third or fourth grade. (More results, for fourth graders and for eighth graders, will be released later this fall on a state-by-state level.)

“This is a test that can unabashedly speak to federal and state leaders in a cleareyed way about how much work we have to do,” said Andrew Ho, a professor of education at Harvard and an expert on education testing who previously served on the board that oversees the exam.

Over time, scores in reading, and especially math, have generally trended upward or held steady since the test was first administered in the early 1970s. That included a period of strong progress from the late 1990s to the mid-2000s.

But over the last decade or so, student scores had leveled off rather than gained, while gaps widened between low- and high-performing students.

Then came the pandemic, which shuttered schools across the country almost overnight. Teachers taught lessons over Zoom, and students sat at home, struggling to learn online.

In some parts of the country, the worst of the disruptions were short lived, with schools reopening that fall. But in other areas, particularly in big cities with large populations of low-income students and students of color, schools remained closed for many months, and some did not fully reopen until last year.

The national tests, Dr. Ho said, tell the story of a “decade of progress,” followed by a “decade of inequality” and then the “shock” of the pandemic, which came with a one-two punch.

“It erased the progress, and it exacerbated the inequality,” Dr. Ho said. “Now we have our work cut out for us.”

He estimated that losing one point on the national exam roughly translated to about three weeks of learning. That means a top-performing student who lost three points in math could catch up in as little as nine weeks, while a low-performing student who lost 12 points would need 36 weeks, or almost nine months, to make up ground — and would still be significantly behind more advanced peers.
There are indications that students — fully back in school — have begun to learn at a normal pace once again, but experts say it will take more than the typical school day to make up gaps created by the pandemic.

The results should be a “rallying cry” to focus on getting students back on track, said Janice K. Jackson, who led the Chicago Public Schools until last year and is now a board member of Chiefs for Change, which represents state education and school district leaders. She called for the federal government to step up with big ideas, invoking the Marshall Plan, the American initiative to help rebuild Europe after World War II.

“That is how dramatic it is to me,” she said, adding that politicians, school leaders, teachers’ unions and parents would have to set aside the many disagreements that flared during the pandemic and come together to help students recover.
I'm not surprised. But I think it's better to say that not the pandemic caused it, but those actions which were taken because of it. And it's not only about school students and their math and reading skills but also about uni students. I've just checked Google Scholar, and there are so many articles, research, and abstracts dedicated to the impact of pandemics, and lockdown on students. And I can say that I also noticed that change. For me, it was harder to study offline, and my academic results were much worse during it. And math has always been the most complicated for me, and when we got back to online education, I had to hire a tutor because my skills were too bad. Now everything is better, but from time to time I use https://plainmath.net/post-secondary/statistics-and-probability/upper-level-probability when I have solving problems. I like that site because there are many different answers, and if I can't find something I need, I can just ask a question and get a detailed and step-by-step solution.
 
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artradley

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My 8 year old daughter just scored 99th percentile in reading and her spelling and word recognition are off the charts. My 6 year old is kicking butt in Kindergarten.

At the beginning of the pandemic (end of 2020 school year) our schools in SoDak went online. My kids didn't just get an early start on summer vacation. In fact, since they didn't physically finish out the year they had school every morning until noon until the 4th of July. ABC Mouse, Khan Academy, and other learning apps. The learning aids are out there.

I figure my kids will have an edge on the rest of them now. If you are a parent and didn't guide and educate your kids through this government made disaster then that is your own fault.

But it’s not your children’s fault.

Do you understand why your post is irrelevant?
 

fredjr82

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I, of course, was telling people how much damage this would do to kids. But, most people at the time downplayed it saying that remote and hybrid learning was great. Maybe even better!

They were very wrong.

I knew this dick lick would be in here somewhere 🤣
 
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BrunoMars420

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Feb 14, 2016
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All those policies focused around saving the most vulnerable (mostly old folk Boomers) ended up screwing a bunch of 9 year olds (Generation Alpha).

Amazing, those sneaky Boomer bastards found a way to bone yet another generation. Damn, well done. I tip my cap.
Thanks @joelbc1