The past 10 years

[Neo_Hawk]

While writing on a different thread, I realized that you left 2017 Champs off this list. Not sure that would change a lot of peoples choices on here, but it would put CC in at 133. I would take Clark over anyone on this list at 133, 3 time finalist, 1 time Champ.

Also don't understand how anyone could put Robles over Mc D. He might have lost 1 match to the kid, but he was yet another 3 time finalist and was a 2 time champ who went 122-9 in his career vs Robles 122-23 career record. Robles finishes each year were Off Podium/ 4th / 7th / 1st. He was better than McD 1 day.

 

[MSU158]

While writing on a different thread, I realized that you left 2017 Champs off this list. Not sure that would change a lot of peoples choices on here, but it would put CC in at 133. I would take Clark over anyone on this list at 133, 3 time finalist, 1 time Champ.

Also don't understand how anyone could put Robles over Mc D. He might have lost 1 match to the kid, but he was yet another 3 time finalist and was a 2 time champ who went 122-9 in his career vs Robles 122-23 career record. Robles finishes each year were Off Podium/ 4th / 7th / 1st. He was better than McD 1 day.

Actually, he was better than McDonough that year, and probably anybody at 125 for quite some time. The point is to take each guy at his prime, vs. considering their whole career. Otherwise, you are basically forced to pick Dake at 141,149,157 and 165 or you actually have to argue 141 because Stieber should win both 133 and 141 because he was a 4xer as well. But, at their prime, Burroughs was ridiculously good his last season when he was at 165. Askren was crazy his last 2 years. Konrad was unbelievable.

Some guys develop on a considerably different trajectory. See John Smith as a great example!

 

[Neo_Hawk]

Actually, he was better than McDonough that year, and probably anybody at 125 for quite some time. The point is to take each guy at his prime, vs. considering their whole career. Otherwise, you are basically forced to pick Dake at 141,149,157 and 165 or you actually have to argue 141 because Stieber should win both 133 and 141 because he was a 4xer as well. But, at their prime, Burroughs was ridiculously good his last season when he was at 165. Askren was crazy his last 2 years. Konrad was unbelievable.

Some guys develop on a considerably different trajectory. See John Smith as a great example!

Who's to say McD wasn't in his prime his Freshman year or his Jr year? His Freshman year when he won, Robles was 7th so he was quite a bit better that year.

I choose to look at it differently. I look at their peak level and combine with their overall talent as established during their career. Or in other words, at that weight, which guy would I pick on my team. During the last 10 years you'd pick Robles over McD?
If they wrestled again 3 nights later and then 8 more times after that, who would win the most? Robles had been wrestling 2 legged guys his whole life, McD wrestled a 1 legged guy once. I bet he gets better each time he experiences it again.

 

[pumpdog20]

For fun I thought I would pull up the top 6 champions IMO, over the last 10 years. If these wrestlers competed in a tournament, who would you take? This is based on their college performance, not post.

125
Troy Nickerson
Matt McDonough
Anthony Robles
Jesse Delgado
Nathon Thomasselo
Nico Megaludis

133
Coleman Scott
Jayson Ness
Jordan Oliver
Logan Steibler
Tony Ramos
Nashon Garrett

141
Jeff Jaggers
Kyle Dake
Kellen Russell
Kendric Maple
Logan Steibler
Dean Heil

149
Brent Metcalf
Darion Caldwell
Kyle Dake
Frank Mollinero
Jason Tsirtsis
Zane Reitherford

157
Trent Paulson
Jordan Burroughs
Bubba Jenkings
Kyle Dake
Isaiah Martinez
Jason Nolf

165
Mark Perry
Andrew Howe
Jordan Burroughs
David Taylor
Kyle Dake
Alex Deiringer

174
Ben Askren
Keith Gavin
Jay Borschel
Jon Reader
Chris Perry
Matt Brown

184
Jake Herbert
Max Askren
Quinten Wright
Steve Bosak
Ed Ruth
Gabe Dean

197
Josh Glen
Jake Varner
Dustin Kilgore
Quinten Wright
J'Den Cox
Kyven Gadsen

HWT
Cole Konrad
Mark Nelson
David Zabriskie
Tony Nelson
Nick Gwiazdowski
Kyle Snyder

125: McD - he always does better after seeing someone again
133: Oliver - with today's rules Oliver wins against Stieber
141: Stieber - LS' neutral game is a little better than Dake's defense
149: Dake - KD too strong at this weight, no has the neutral offense score. Dake and Zain may trade ride outs
157: Dake - too strong for Burroughs at this weight...
165: Burroughs - the quickness advantage comes into play as Dake starts to get bigger
174: Askren - might be the most lopsided weight
184: Herbert - too strong and just athletic enough to beat Ruth
197: Cox - probably just athletic enough to top Varner
HWT: Snyder - just too much pedigree to go anyone else

133- Surprised we haven't heard any of thatdudeJO yet.

2008 149 was indeed the toughest bracket I've ever seen. So many national champs.

While I agree with Dake at 65, he did not Own DT. He won 2 very tight matches that year and gave up the first TD in the finals.

I had Oliver

 

[MSU158]

Who's to say McD wasn't in his prime his Freshman year or his Jr year? His Freshman year when he won, Robles was 7th so he was quite a bit better that year.

I choose to look at it differently. I look at their peak level and combine with their overall talent as established during their career. Or in other words, at that weight, which guy would I pick on my team. During the last 10 years you'd pick Robles over McD?
If they wrestled again 3 nights later and then 8 more times after that, who would win the most? Robles had been wrestling 2 legged guys his whole life, McD wrestled a 1 legged guy once. I bet he gets better each time he experiences it again.

I think the point of this was a one time tournament with all of them at their absolute best. Do you think I would pick Caldwell to be on my team over Metcalf for 4 years? Of course not. But, Caldwell at his absolute best was better than that crazy good 149 field. I think the same of Robles. By the time he was a senior, not only had he perfected his style, he had maximized his physical attributes. He was simply that much stronger than every 125lber. I would pick McD every time to be my 4 year guy, but I just can't pick McD over him when both were at their best.

 

[Neo_Hawk]

I think the point of this was a one time tournament with all of them at their absolute best. Do you think I would pick Caldwell to be on my team over Metcalf for 4 years? Of course not. But, Caldwell at his absolute best was better than that crazy good 149 field. I think the same of Robles. By the time he was a senior, not only had he perfected his style, he had maximized his physical attributes. He was simply that much stronger than every 125lber. I would pick McD every time to be my 4 year guy, but I just can't pick McD over him when both were at their best.

I can't help it if you want to be wrong.

 

[wasdt21]

z. sanders owned robles

 

[TNTwrestle]

nd Sanders

I think the point of this was a one time tournament with all of them at their absolute best. Do you think I would pick Caldwell to be on my team over Metcalf for 4 years? Of course not. But, Caldwell at his absolute best was better than that crazy good 149 field. I think the same of Robles. By the time he was a senior, not only had he perfected his style, he had maximized his physical attributes. He was simply that much stronger than every 125lber. I would pick McD every time to be my 4 year guy, but I just can't pick McD over him when both were at their best.

I see your point, and I figured mine at their peak as well, but I didn't think of it as a one match deal. I think Caldwell's pin with the spladle was Metcalf not knowing his competition (which was inexcusable because of Caldwell's NCAA performance the previous year) and the match in the finals was just Caldwell getting really up for it and Metcalf having one of his slow starts that he occasionally had. After the TF in the previous meeting, I think he took him too lightly. So what I'm saying is, I chose the better wrestler at their peak, not the one who wrestled the one best match. I think if they wrestled 10 times that year, Metcalf would have won 7. That being said, I picked Retherford at that weight, for the same reasons.

As for McD - Robles, I think most subsequent matches would have gone McD's way. Robles beat almost everyone the last two years, the first time he wrestled them. Not so much the second time. Precin and Sanders come to mind, although I know there were more, and Falck pretty much owned him, except when it counted, just like Escobedo. I know his Senior year he stepped up his game. He perfected his roll-through tilt and a couple other things that no one could practice against because they didn't have a one-legged, freakishly strong workout partner. Robles was bigger upper body than Bubba when they stood next to each other. He was a 158 pounder minus a leg. But, McD was a very smart wrestler and was figuring him out as the match progressed. If they wrestled multiple times, Robles would catch him in a tilt sometimes when he got to start on top. That would be impossible to stop consistently, but I really feel McD would have won more than he lost, even to Robles as a Senior.

Only an opinion, and I'm sure mine won't change yours, but that's what they're all about. I have always enjoyed hearing yours, even if most here don't, and I often agree with them. Not this time though.

 

[MSU158]

I didn't pick Robles because I was a fan. I picked him because he was unstoppable his last season. 36-0 and wrecked everybody. Robles senior year he beat McDonough 7-1 and the match wasn't even that close. McDonough never came remotely close to a takedown and Robles turned him with ease. His 2 on 1 tilt was UNSTOPPABLE.

Everyone is pointing to earlier seasons to point out Robles losses, but that isn't a fair way to do things. Some guys just peak their senior seasons. John Smith is a great example, but Borschel may be a better one to use since he hits closer to home.

Do it this way. Go back and watch the NCAA Finals match. Game plan it. How was McDonough going to take him down? How was he going to stop from being turned? How was he going to ride him.

I can't pick a 125 over that Senior Robles, because I can't honestly figure a game plan from any of those wrestlers that can score on Robles, let alone OUTSCORE him.

 

[MSU158]

I can't help it if you want to be wrong.

Great response. Made me laugh and think of my wife. If she doesn't like the argument she would deviate and say something innocuous like, your breath smells or you are stupid or even worse things that shouldn't be shared. How are you supposed to win those type of arguments?

Well played, sir!

 

[Neo_Hawk]

I don't want to beat a dead horse here, especially since you seem to have Gilman level motor in my experience and can outlast almost anyone on here in an argument, but just to address your last post.

I get it, Robles was really good his last year, but based on your argument, the performance he had in his senior year was unbeatable, which would make him the greatest 25 of all time. There are several ways to beat him, that was proven throughout his career, but because McD only had 1 shot, he lacked the experience of wrestling a dude with one leg, going in to that match. I don't think he was prepared for how different it would be. He would be in their 2nd meeting.

In his Jr year, McD was at his best, lost to Delgado early in the season in OT then went on to beat him, twice more I think, that season. He adapted. You ask a lot of "How would he" questions, my answer is, he would outwork him, as he proved he could do better than almost anyone. I would normally never base an overall opinion on a topic based on 1 match, unfortunately that's all we have, which is why I feel the need to look at other factors, like career performance.

 

[saluki211]

I didn't pick Robles because I was a fan. I picked him because he was unstoppable his last season. 36-0 and wrecked everybody. Robles senior year he beat McDonough 7-1 and the match wasn't even that close. McDonough never came remotely close to a takedown and Robles turned him with ease. His 2 on 1 tilt was UNSTOPPABLE.

I get what you're saying. Sr. year Robles was amazing, and was certainly better than So. McDonough. I picked McDonough not because of his overall accomplishments, but because I honestly think he was in his absolute prime the second half of his junior year, and I think that version of McDonough would have beaten Sr. year Robles.

 

[YoungGun07]

I disagree with Robles over McD in this discussion. Assuming you agree with me, how far back do you have to go to find a 125 you'd pick over McD?

 

[saluki211]

I disagree with Robles over McD in this discussion. Assuming you agree with me, how far back do you have to go to find a 125 you'd pick over McD?

Maybe Joe Dubuque (2x champ for Indiana). That dude was freaking tough and won some loaded brackets which included the likes of Sam Hazewinkel, Kyle Ott, Troy Nickerson, Nick Simmons, Coleman Scott etc...

 

[Neo_Hawk]

I disagree with Robles over McD in this discussion. Assuming you agree with me, how far back do you have to go to find a 125 you'd pick over McD?

Stephan Abas maybe, who happened to beat Luke Eustice from Iowa in the finals.
Ricky Bonomo if you count the lowest weight wrestled which was 113 or 118 back then.
Barry Davis perhaps - this is about as far back as I can go cuz I'm old but not ancient.
Some tough SOB's for sure, but McD, in my opinion would give anyone a battle for the title of greatest ever at the lightest weight, not saying he would win it, but he would be one of the last men standing, imho

 

[rider976]

I think the more important question is how does Spencer do against McD in the room?

 

[YoungGun07]

I asked the McD question wondering if it went all the way back to Barry Davis. Davis-McD-Lee would be pretty cool.

 

[TNTwrestle]

Abas actually stopped Jody Striittmatter from from being a D1 champ. Eric Juergens is the only person ever to beat abas in a NCAA tournament match, and he did it twice in the same year (Qtrs and #rd place match). It might have been Dubuque that beat Eustice, don't remember for sure.

 

[cidhawkeye]

I didn't pick Robles because I was a fan. I picked him because he was unstoppable his last season. 36-0 and wrecked everybody. Robles senior year he beat McDonough 7-1 and the match wasn't even that close. McDonough never came remotely close to a takedown and Robles turned him with ease. His 2 on 1 tilt was UNSTOPPABLE.

Everyone is pointing to earlier seasons to point out Robles losses, but that isn't a fair way to do things. Some guys just peak their senior seasons. John Smith is a great example, but Borschel may be a better one to use since he hits closer to home.

Do it this way. Go back and watch the NCAA Finals match. Game plan it. How was McDonough going to take him down? How was he going to stop from being turned? How was he going to ride him.

I can't pick a 125 over that Senior Robles, because I can't honestly figure a game plan from any of those wrestlers that can score on Robles, let alone OUTSCORE him.

Turned with ease and an unstoppable tilt sounds like 7-1 is underachieving to me. Should have been a tech or pin.

 

[MSU158]

Turned with ease and an unstoppable tilt sounds like 7-1 is underachieving to me. Should have been a tech or pin.

Go watch the match. Robles took him down with just over 2 mins left in the 1st and turned him twice riding him out to take a 7-0 lead. After that he pretty much coasted and never had a chance to turn him again. McDonough chose neutral and they stayed that way the entire 2nd. Robles chose down in the 3rd and gave up a stalling pt. to win 7-1.

Again, I wasn't a Robles fan. I was cheering for Matt. It's just after that match I was sold on Robles. He was near impossible to take down and once he got his 2on1 and pulled the wrist to the waist his opponent was going over.

As I said before. Go watch that match. It is on YouTube. It isn't a knock on McDonough. barring the injury his senior season he was going to be a 4 time finalist and likely a 3 time champ.

I just simply think that senior version of Robles along with the way he was allowed to wrestle from neutral beats just about anybody at 125 you could put against him. Especially if it is their 1st time wrestling him.

 

[chuck285]

Actually, he was better than McDonough that year, and probably anybody at 125 for quite some time. The point is to take each guy at his prime, vs. considering their whole career. Otherwise, you are basically forced to pick Dake at 141,149,157 and 165 or you actually have to argue 141 because Stieber should win both 133 and 141 because he was a 4xer as well. But, at their prime, Burroughs was ridiculously good his last season when he was at 165. Askren was crazy his last 2 years. Konrad was unbelievable.

Some guys develop on a considerably different trajectory. See John Smith as a great example!

Who would you take? Gable or Owens?

 

[rossel 33]

The McD v Robles debate is interesting. Career-wise, no doubt McD surpassed Robles. I actually think McD was a likely 4x champ, had it not been for his torn labrum as a Sr, and running into a one of a kind opponent in Robles.

But I agree with MSU. With Robles, it's not so much about his career, but rather what he had developed into, capitalizing on his tremendous advantage in upper body strength. From the waist up, he was like a 149 or 157 #'er. He was able to stay down on the mat while in neutral, so there were no leg attacks against him, and no ref would ever penalize him for that, even though they would a two legged wrestler. It's as if there were different rules.

Robles grip strength allowed him to grab the opponents wrist, pull him in, and start the tilts. That technique was perfected by his Sr year. No one who engaged him could stop it. His closest match during Sr year ncaa was against Kjar, who wisely did not tie up, and was fortunate to get a quick escape, thus avoiding the tilts. Kjar basically stalled, hardly wrestling, keeping it close and hoping for a mistake that never came. McD, as was his style, came to wrestle, and attacked. He was beaten 7-1.

I often wondered how Robles would've fared in FS competition against the world, and how would it be officiated?

 

[MSU158]

Who would you take? Gable or Owens?

Owens was a solid qb in the 70's, but I fail to see the comparison here!

Do you mean Owings? If so, Not remotely the same comparison. Owings never won one again and his win over Gable was very close and there was some controversy over whether Gable had some back pts that should have been called.

If Gable would have lost 7-1 with the only point scored being a stalling point, I would have a hard time picking him over Owings.

 

[pablow]

Owens was a solid qb in the 70's, but I fail to see the comparison here!

Do you mean Owings? If so, Not remotely the same comparison. Owings never won one again and his win over Gable was very close and there was some controversy over whether Gable had some back pts that should have been called.

If Gable would have lost 7-1 with the only point scored being a stalling point, I would have a hard time picking him over Owings.

here we go . . .

 

[nitlion6]

Stephan Abas maybe, who happened to beat Luke Eustice from Iowa in the finals.
Ricky Bonomo if you count the lowest weight wrestled which was 113 or 118 back then.
Barry Davis perhaps - this is about as far back as I can go cuz I'm old but not ancient.
Some tough SOB's for sure, but McD, in my opinion would give anyone a battle for the title of greatest ever at the lightest weight, not saying he would win it, but he would be one of the last men standing, imho

I take Robles, but if we are going back in time to Ricky Bonomo I would also list Jeff Prescott.

 

[MSU158]

here we go . . .

Where are we going? Are you driving? I call shotgun.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Go watch the match. Robles took him down with just over 2 mins left in the 1st and turned him twice riding him out to take a 7-0 lead. After that he pretty much coasted and never had a chance to turn him again. McDonough chose neutral and they stayed that way the entire 2nd. Robles chose down in the 3rd and gave up a stalling pt. to win 7-1.

Again, I wasn't a Robles fan. I was cheering for Matt. It's just after that match I was sold on Robles. He was near impossible to take down and once he got his 2on1 and pulled the wrist to the waist his opponent was going over.

As I said before. Go watch that match. It is on YouTube. It isn't a knock on McDonough. barring the injury his senior season he was going to be a 4 time finalist and likely a 3 time champ.

I just simply think that senior version of Robles along with the way he was allowed to wrestle from neutral beats just about anybody at 125 you could put against him. Especially if it is their 1st time wrestling him.

All valid points and I watched the match. Best on best McD vs. Robles who wins best of 3, 5,7?

 

[MARION_HAWK]

All valid points and I watched the match. Best on best McD vs. Robles who wins best of 3, 5,7?

IMHO...Robles would never beat a healthy McD again.

 

[Neo_Hawk]

IMHO...Robles would never beat a healthy McD again.

Which is my point all along. They wrestle 10 times, Robles wins maybe 2 or 3, and the first match up is one of those 2 or 3. He was better that night in that circumstance.

 

[MSU158]

All valid points and I watched the match. Best on best McD vs. Robles who wins best of 3, 5,7?

Honestly, I really like McDonough. Minus injury he belongs on the short list of Iowa greats. Still, I have a hard time figuring out how he beats a Senior Robles once, let alone a majority of any best of series. Hell, for that matter, I have a hard time figuring out how any 118/125 there has been could.

As long as he was allowed to wrestle the way he did in neutral, I have a really hard time seeing anyone take him down and if you can't take him down, you aren't going to beat him because you aren't going to outscore him on the mat.

Finally, remember, he didn't just have one good night in March. He was 36-0 that season and pretty much dominated everyone. He was 36-0 with 24 TF's ,2 falls and 5 MD's. McDonough was 1 of only 5 matches that weren't bonus points. Those are Retherford like numbers. Also, he teched Sanders(someone said he owned Robles) 20-2 that season.

 

[pablow]

Honestly, I really like McDonough. Minus injury he belongs on the short list of Iowa greats. Still, I have a hard time figuring out how he beats a Senior Robles once, let alone a majority of any best of series. Hell, for that matter, I have a hard time figuring out how any 118/125 there has been could.

As long as he was allowed to wrestle the way he did in neutral, I have a really hard time seeing anyone take him down and if you can't take him down, you aren't going to beat him because you aren't going to outscore him on the mat.

Finally, remember, he didn't just have one good night in March. He was 36-0 that season and pretty much dominated everyone. He was 36-0 with 24 TF's ,2 falls and 5 MD's. McDonough was 1 of only 5 matches that weren't bonus points. Those are Retherford like numbers. Also, he teched Sanders(someone said he owned Robles) 20-2 that season.

If Robles had two legs in 2011, Kyle Dake would have murdered him.

 

[rossel 33]

If Robles had two legs in 2011, Kyle Dake would have murdered him.

If Jake Varner had one leg, he would've murdered Nolf

 

[pablow]

If Jake Varner had one leg, he would've murdered Nolf

Cael would have complained and refs probably would have made Varner hop around the mat 'til he got too tired to wrestle

 

[ginormous.headed.circus.midget]

Go watch the match. Robles took him down with just over 2 mins left in the 1st and turned him twice riding him out to take a 7-0 lead. After that he pretty much coasted and never had a chance to turn him again. McDonough chose neutral and they stayed that way the entire 2nd. Robles chose down in the 3rd and gave up a stalling pt. to win 7-1.

Again, I wasn't a Robles fan. I was cheering for Matt. It's just after that match I was sold on Robles. He was near impossible to take down and once he got his 2on1 and pulled the wrist to the waist his opponent was going over.

As I said before. Go watch that match. It is on YouTube. It isn't a knock on McDonough. barring the injury his senior season he was going to be a 4 time finalist and likely a 3 time champ.

I just simply think that senior version of Robles along with the way he was allowed to wrestle from neutral beats just about anybody at 125 you could put against him. Especially if it is their 1st time wrestling him.

Is Robles semi final match viewable online?

It was a 4-2 win over Ben Kjar and 4 to 2 was way closer than the score.

He did look great again McD but his arm final match was anything but.

Who's to say McD wasn't in his prime his Freshman year or his Jr year? His Freshman year when he won, Robles was 7th so he was quite a bit better that year.

I choose to look at it differently. I look at their peak level and combine with their overall talent as established during their career. Or in other words, at that weight, which guy would I pick on my team. During the last 10 years you'd pick Robles over McD?
If they wrestled again 3 nights later and then 8 more times after that, who would win the most? Robles had been wrestling 2 legged guys his whole life, McD wrestled a 1 legged guy once. I bet he gets better each time he experiences it again.

 

[TNTwrestle]

Honestly, I really like McDonough. Minus injury he belongs on the short list of Iowa greats. Still, I have a hard time figuring out how he beats a Senior Robles once, let alone a majority of any best of series. Hell, for that matter, I have a hard time figuring out how any 118/125 there has been could.

As long as he was allowed to wrestle the way he did in neutral, I have a really hard time seeing anyone take him down and if you can't take him down, you aren't going to beat him because you aren't going to outscore him on the mat.

Finally, remember, he didn't just have one good night in March. He was 36-0 that season and pretty much dominated everyone. He was 36-0 with 24 TF's ,2 falls and 5 MD's. McDonough was 1 of only 5 matches that weren't bonus points. Those are Retherford like numbers. Also, he teched Sanders(someone said he owned Robles) 20-2 that season.

Two words - Jesse Whitmer. Strongest man in the world. He'd never let some 157 pounder sans appendage toss him around.