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The Stench of Climate Change Denial

cigaretteman

HR King
May 29, 2001
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59,464
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By Paul Krugman
Opinion Columnist
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This may sound a bit weird, but when I think about my adolescent years, I sometimes associate them with the faint smell of sewage.
You see, when I was in high school, my family lived on the South Shore of Long Island, where few homes had sewer connections. Most had septic tanks, and there always seemed to be an overflowing tank somewhere upwind.
Most of Nassau County eventually got sewered. But many American homes, especially in the Southeast, aren’t connected to sewer lines, and more and more septic tanks are overflowing, on a scale vastly greater than what I remember from my vaguely smelly hometown — which is both disgusting and a threat to public health.
The cause? Climate change. Along the Gulf and South Atlantic coasts, The Washington Post reported last week, “sea levels have risen at least six inches since 2010.” This may not sound like much, but it leads to rising groundwater and elevated risks of overflowing tanks.
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The emerging sewage crisis is only one of many disasters we can expect as the planet continues to warm, and nowhere near the top of the list. But it seems to me to offer an especially graphic illustration of two points. First, the damage from climate change is likely to be more severe than even pessimists have tended to believe. Second, mitigation and adjustment — which are going to be necessary, because we’d still be headed for major effects of climate change even if we took immediate action to greatly reduce greenhouse gas emissions — will probably be far more difficult, as a political matter, than it should be.

On the first point: Estimating the costs of climate change and, relatedly, the costs polluters impose every time they emit another ton of carbon dioxide requires fusing results from two disciplines. On one side, we need physical scientists to figure out how much greenhouse gas emissions will warm the planet, how this will change weather patterns and so on. On the other, we need economists to estimate how these physical changes will affect productivity, health care costs and more.

Actually, there’s a third dimension: social and geopolitical risk. How, for example, will we deal with millions or tens of millions of climate refugees? But I don’t think anyone knows how to quantify those risks.
Anyway, the physical side of this endeavor looks very solid. There has, of course, been a decades-long campaign aiming to discredit climate research and, in some instances, defame individual climate scientists. But if you step back from the smears, you realize that climatology has been one of history’s great analytical triumphs. Climate scientists correctly predicted, decades in advance, an unprecedented rise in global temperatures. They even appear to have gotten the magnitude more or less right.
The economic side of the effort looks flakier. That’s not because economists haven’t tried. Indeed, in 2018, William Nordhaus received a Nobel largely for his work on “integrated assessment models” that try to put the climate science and the economic analysis together.




Yet with all due respect — Nordhaus happens to have been my first mentor in economics! — I’ve long been worried that these models understate the economic costs of climate change, because so many things you weren’t thinking of can go wrong. The prospect of part of America awash in sewage certainly wasn’t on my list.
There has been a trend in recent studies to mark up estimates of the damage from climate change. The uncertainty remains huge, but it’s a good guess that things will be even worse than you thought.
So what are we going to do about it? Even if we were to take drastic steps to reduce emissions right now, many of the consequences of past emissions, including much bigger increases in sea level than we’ve seen so far, are already, as it were, baked in. So we’re going to have to take a wide range of steps to mitigate the damage — including expanding sewer systems to limit the rising tide of, um, sludge.
But will we take those steps? Climate denial was originally all about fossil fuel interests, and to some extent it still is. But it has also become a front in the culture war, with politicians like Ron DeSantis of Florida — who happens to be the governor of one of the states at greatest immediate risk — apparently deciding that even mentioning climate change is woke.
Now imagine the collision between that kind of politics and the urgent need for substantial public spending, on everything from sea walls to sewer systems, to limit climate damage. Spending on that scale will almost surely require new tax revenue. How quickly do you think right-wing culture warriors will agree to that?
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So I’m very worried about the climate future. We probably won’t do enough to limit emissions; President Biden has done far more than any of his predecessors, but it’s still not enough, and Donald Trump has promised oil executives that if he wins, he will reverse much of what Biden has done. Beyond that, we’re unlikely to do enough to limit the damage.
In short, it’s not hard to see some terrible outcomes in the not-too-distant future, even before full global catastrophe arrives. Bad stuff is coming, and we’re already starting to smell it.

 
If you want to convince people that man made climate change is real* - maybe try a spokesman that didn’t make idiotic predictions in the past like this; his credibility is already in question.

The growth of the Internet will slow drastically, as the flaw in ‘Metcalfe’s law’—which states that the number of potential connections in a network is proportional to the square of the number of participants—becomes apparent: most people have nothing to say to each other! By 2005 or so, it will become clear that the Internet’s impact on the economy has been no greater than the fax machine’s.”

* it isn’t
 
If you want to convince people that man made climate change is real* - maybe try a spokesman that didn’t make idiotic predictions in the past like this; his credibility is already in question.

The growth of the Internet will slow drastically, as the flaw in ‘Metcalfe’s law’—which states that the number of potential connections in a network is proportional to the square of the number of participants—becomes apparent: most people have nothing to say to each other! By 2005 or so, it will become clear that the Internet’s impact on the economy has been no greater than the fax machine’s.”

* it isn’t
Bro I'm a kid of the 90s. Acid rain is going to get us long before any of this shit.
 
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Since humans have existed? Wouldn't the correct percentage be since the industrial revolution?

I was told there would be no math.

I think you could do either as Whiskey was trying to say we’ve been through worse and survived.

But yours works too I think - I wouldn’t think there would be a substantial difference.
 
Since humans have existed? Wouldn't the correct percentage be since the industrial revolution?
The correct percentage would be over the past 12,000-15,000 years when agriculture and civilizations were able to flourish thanks to a stable climate. Human civilization is well-adapted to that climate. Our population centers and agricultural centers are predicated on that climate. The idea that the climate could shift 3°C in as little as 250 years (1850-2100) with more to come and NOT cause massive dislocations through crop failures and flooding and drought and disease is patently idiotic.
 
The correct percentage would be over the past 12,000-15,000 years when agriculture and civilizations were able to flourish thanks to a stable climate. Human civilization is well-adapted to that climate. Our population centers and agricultural centers are predicated on that climate. The idea that the climate could shift 3°C in as little as 250 years (1850-2100) with more to come and NOT cause massive dislocations through crop failures and flooding and drought and disease is patently idiotic.

And that's actually when anthropogenic climate change started..still doesn't address Ocean Acidification
 
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The correct percentage would be over the past 12,000-15,000 years when agriculture and civilizations were able to flourish thanks to a stable climate. Human civilization is well-adapted to that climate. Our population centers and agricultural centers are predicated on that climate. The idea that the climate could shift 3°C in as little as 250 years (1850-2100) with more to come and NOT cause massive dislocations through crop failures and flooding and drought and disease is patently idiotic.
That discussion that I added to, is about human caused climate change. Since CO2 emissions is the current driving factor being discussed, human contributions to CO2 increases would have mostly started around the beginning of the industrial revolution. Going back any further than that wouldn't seem to matter unless CO2 isn't really the biggest factor.
 
That discussion that I added to, is about human caused climate change. Since CO2 emissions is the current driving factor being discussed, human contributions to CO2 increases would have mostly started around the beginning of the industrial revolution. Going back any further than that wouldn't seem to matter unless CO2 isn't really the biggest factor.

No, they actually started with agriculture

 
That discussion that I added to, is about human caused climate change. Since CO2 emissions is the current driving factor being discussed, human contributions to CO2 increases would have mostly started around the beginning of the industrial revolution. Going back any further than that wouldn't seem to matter unless CO2 isn't really the biggest factor.
No...that discussion that you added to is about the climate as it affects humans.

Kinds crazy.
86% of the earth's existence has been warmer than it is right now.
And now you know.
Now do the percentage during the time humans have existed …

The stability that began 15,000 years ago allowed for the development of agriculture and civilization. CO2 levels through those years up to the Industrial Revolution have been stable. HUMANS have now made the climate unstable through the unrestrained and massive release of GHGs. We were given the gift of "fire" and we're using it to burn the house down.
 
If you want to convince people that man made climate change is real* - maybe try a spokesman that didn’t make idiotic predictions in the past like this; his credibility is already in question.

The growth of the Internet will slow drastically, as the flaw in ‘Metcalfe’s law’—which states that the number of potential connections in a network is proportional to the square of the number of participants—becomes apparent: most people have nothing to say to each other! By 2005 or so, it will become clear that the Internet’s impact on the economy has been no greater than the fax machine’s.”

* it isn’t
Or, as Business Insider put it

See! He was wrong once! Thereforehence, he is a bozo and you shouldn't listen to him!

You know who really shouldn't be listened to? People who think man made climate change isn't real.
 
Or, as Business Insider put it

See! He was wrong once! Thereforehence, he is a bozo and you shouldn't listen to him!

You know who really shouldn't be listened to? People who think man made climate change isn't real.
Krugman’s always been a fool. I simply used of of the more comical examples to highlight his idiocy.

There’s lots of them.
 
What's the point of saying something like that?

giphy.gif
 
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By Paul Krugman
Opinion Columnist
Sign up for the Trump on Trial newsletter. The latest news and analysis on the trials of Donald Trump in New York, Florida, Georgia and Washington, D.C. Get it sent to your inbox.
This may sound a bit weird, but when I think about my adolescent years, I sometimes associate them with the faint smell of sewage.
You see, when I was in high school, my family lived on the South Shore of Long Island, where few homes had sewer connections. Most had septic tanks, and there always seemed to be an overflowing tank somewhere upwind.
Most of Nassau County eventually got sewered. But many American homes, especially in the Southeast, aren’t connected to sewer lines, and more and more septic tanks are overflowing, on a scale vastly greater than what I remember from my vaguely smelly hometown — which is both disgusting and a threat to public health.
The cause? Climate change. Along the Gulf and South Atlantic coasts, The Washington Post reported last week, “sea levels have risen at least six inches since 2010.” This may not sound like much, but it leads to rising groundwater and elevated risks of overflowing tanks.
Advertisement
SKIP ADVERTISEMENT


The emerging sewage crisis is only one of many disasters we can expect as the planet continues to warm, and nowhere near the top of the list. But it seems to me to offer an especially graphic illustration of two points. First, the damage from climate change is likely to be more severe than even pessimists have tended to believe. Second, mitigation and adjustment — which are going to be necessary, because we’d still be headed for major effects of climate change even if we took immediate action to greatly reduce greenhouse gas emissions — will probably be far more difficult, as a political matter, than it should be.

On the first point: Estimating the costs of climate change and, relatedly, the costs polluters impose every time they emit another ton of carbon dioxide requires fusing results from two disciplines. On one side, we need physical scientists to figure out how much greenhouse gas emissions will warm the planet, how this will change weather patterns and so on. On the other, we need economists to estimate how these physical changes will affect productivity, health care costs and more.

Actually, there’s a third dimension: social and geopolitical risk. How, for example, will we deal with millions or tens of millions of climate refugees? But I don’t think anyone knows how to quantify those risks.
Anyway, the physical side of this endeavor looks very solid. There has, of course, been a decades-long campaign aiming to discredit climate research and, in some instances, defame individual climate scientists. But if you step back from the smears, you realize that climatology has been one of history’s great analytical triumphs. Climate scientists correctly predicted, decades in advance, an unprecedented rise in global temperatures. They even appear to have gotten the magnitude more or less right.
The economic side of the effort looks flakier. That’s not because economists haven’t tried. Indeed, in 2018, William Nordhaus received a Nobel largely for his work on “integrated assessment models” that try to put the climate science and the economic analysis together.



Yet with all due respect — Nordhaus happens to have been my first mentor in economics! — I’ve long been worried that these models understate the economic costs of climate change, because so many things you weren’t thinking of can go wrong. The prospect of part of America awash in sewage certainly wasn’t on my list.
There has been a trend in recent studies to mark up estimates of the damage from climate change. The uncertainty remains huge, but it’s a good guess that things will be even worse than you thought.
So what are we going to do about it? Even if we were to take drastic steps to reduce emissions right now, many of the consequences of past emissions, including much bigger increases in sea level than we’ve seen so far, are already, as it were, baked in. So we’re going to have to take a wide range of steps to mitigate the damage — including expanding sewer systems to limit the rising tide of, um, sludge.
But will we take those steps? Climate denial was originally all about fossil fuel interests, and to some extent it still is. But it has also become a front in the culture war, with politicians like Ron DeSantis of Florida — who happens to be the governor of one of the states at greatest immediate risk — apparently deciding that even mentioning climate change is woke.
Now imagine the collision between that kind of politics and the urgent need for substantial public spending, on everything from sea walls to sewer systems, to limit climate damage. Spending on that scale will almost surely require new tax revenue. How quickly do you think right-wing culture warriors will agree to that?
Advertisement
SKIP ADVERTISEMENT


So I’m very worried about the climate future. We probably won’t do enough to limit emissions; President Biden has done far more than any of his predecessors, but it’s still not enough, and Donald Trump has promised oil executives that if he wins, he will reverse much of what Biden has done. Beyond that, we’re unlikely to do enough to limit the damage.
In short, it’s not hard to see some terrible outcomes in the not-too-distant future, even before full global catastrophe arrives. Bad stuff is coming, and we’re already starting to smell it.

The one thing that amuses me about climate change is that here in the United States its impacts are going to be felt most by the idiots that pretend it’s fake. Poor, rural southerners who vote MAGA.

Sorry about your trailers and hovels that are going to be blown away and flooded - we tried to warn ya 🤷‍♂️

I do appreciate karma.
 
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What are you doing in your day to day life to save the world that you believe the deniers are not doing?
 
Because the Public Servants, Kardashians, and celebrities that shove it down our throat also have zero issue using their private planes for a 12 minute flight. Also i'm sure that pro-Ukrainian group that bombed the Nordstream pipeline did wonders for the environment. Also these idiots have zero idea oil is used in clothes yet I don't see them wearing clothes made out of tumbleweed or grass.

When they care I will.
 
Last edited:
By Paul Krugman
Opinion Columnist
Sign up for the Trump on Trial newsletter. The latest news and analysis on the trials of Donald Trump in New York, Florida, Georgia and Washington, D.C. Get it sent to your inbox.
This may sound a bit weird, but when I think about my adolescent years, I sometimes associate them with the faint smell of sewage.
You see, when I was in high school, my family lived on the South Shore of Long Island, where few homes had sewer connections. Most had septic tanks, and there always seemed to be an overflowing tank somewhere upwind.
Most of Nassau County eventually got sewered. But many American homes, especially in the Southeast, aren’t connected to sewer lines, and more and more septic tanks are overflowing, on a scale vastly greater than what I remember from my vaguely smelly hometown — which is both disgusting and a threat to public health.
The cause? Climate change. Along the Gulf and South Atlantic coasts, The Washington Post reported last week, “sea levels have risen at least six inches since 2010.” This may not sound like much, but it leads to rising groundwater and elevated risks of overflowing tanks.
Advertisement
SKIP ADVERTISEMENT


The emerging sewage crisis is only one of many disasters we can expect as the planet continues to warm, and nowhere near the top of the list. But it seems to me to offer an especially graphic illustration of two points. First, the damage from climate change is likely to be more severe than even pessimists have tended to believe. Second, mitigation and adjustment — which are going to be necessary, because we’d still be headed for major effects of climate change even if we took immediate action to greatly reduce greenhouse gas emissions — will probably be far more difficult, as a political matter, than it should be.

On the first point: Estimating the costs of climate change and, relatedly, the costs polluters impose every time they emit another ton of carbon dioxide requires fusing results from two disciplines. On one side, we need physical scientists to figure out how much greenhouse gas emissions will warm the planet, how this will change weather patterns and so on. On the other, we need economists to estimate how these physical changes will affect productivity, health care costs and more.

Actually, there’s a third dimension: social and geopolitical risk. How, for example, will we deal with millions or tens of millions of climate refugees? But I don’t think anyone knows how to quantify those risks.
Anyway, the physical side of this endeavor looks very solid. There has, of course, been a decades-long campaign aiming to discredit climate research and, in some instances, defame individual climate scientists. But if you step back from the smears, you realize that climatology has been one of history’s great analytical triumphs. Climate scientists correctly predicted, decades in advance, an unprecedented rise in global temperatures. They even appear to have gotten the magnitude more or less right.
The economic side of the effort looks flakier. That’s not because economists haven’t tried. Indeed, in 2018, William Nordhaus received a Nobel largely for his work on “integrated assessment models” that try to put the climate science and the economic analysis together.



Yet with all due respect — Nordhaus happens to have been my first mentor in economics! — I’ve long been worried that these models understate the economic costs of climate change, because so many things you weren’t thinking of can go wrong. The prospect of part of America awash in sewage certainly wasn’t on my list.
There has been a trend in recent studies to mark up estimates of the damage from climate change. The uncertainty remains huge, but it’s a good guess that things will be even worse than you thought.
So what are we going to do about it? Even if we were to take drastic steps to reduce emissions right now, many of the consequences of past emissions, including much bigger increases in sea level than we’ve seen so far, are already, as it were, baked in. So we’re going to have to take a wide range of steps to mitigate the damage — including expanding sewer systems to limit the rising tide of, um, sludge.
But will we take those steps? Climate denial was originally all about fossil fuel interests, and to some extent it still is. But it has also become a front in the culture war, with politicians like Ron DeSantis of Florida — who happens to be the governor of one of the states at greatest immediate risk — apparently deciding that even mentioning climate change is woke.
Now imagine the collision between that kind of politics and the urgent need for substantial public spending, on everything from sea walls to sewer systems, to limit climate damage. Spending on that scale will almost surely require new tax revenue. How quickly do you think right-wing culture warriors will agree to that?
Advertisement
SKIP ADVERTISEMENT


So I’m very worried about the climate future. We probably won’t do enough to limit emissions; President Biden has done far more than any of his predecessors, but it’s still not enough, and Donald Trump has promised oil executives that if he wins, he will reverse much of what Biden has done. Beyond that, we’re unlikely to do enough to limit the damage.
In short, it’s not hard to see some terrible outcomes in the not-too-distant future, even before full global catastrophe arrives. Bad stuff is coming, and we’re already starting to smell it.

Let's bring in millions and millions more 3rd world rejects to pick up the poop no one else wants to while picking our pockets clean!! Oh wait.....they poop too! lol
 
The one thing that amuses me about climate change is that here in the United States its impacts are going to be felt most by the idiots that pretend it’s fake. Poor, rural southerners who vote MAGA.

Sorry about your trailers and hovels that are going to be blown away and flooded - we tried to warn ya 🤷‍♂️

I do appreciate karma.
Who contributed more CO2 by heating their home last winter, you or that southerner?
 
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Who contributed more CO2 by heating their home last winter, you or that southerner?
Irrelevant.

They are actively working to undermine the necessary collective action required to address the issue and are thus a massively larger part of the problem.

Also, where I live is 100 % nuclear and wind generated power, so in all likelihood, they also contributed more CO2 by heating their homes than I did.
 
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Because the Public Servants, Kardashians, and celebrities that shove it down our throat also have zero issue using their private planes for a 12 minute flight. Also i'm sure that pro-Ukrainian group that bombed the Nordstream pipeline did wonders for the environment. Also these idiots have zero idea oil is used in clothes yet I don't see them wearing clothes made out of timberweed or grass.
When they care I will.
yes...all those public servants with their private jets
 
you must know a very different set of public servants than i do

but i get it...everyone needs to be 100% perfect and consistent before you can care about it

well, great news...that will never happen, so you'll never have to care about it...and blame the kardashians for some reason
Yeah exactly you're getting it! Don't be a hypocrite!
 
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