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The travel

sadiehawkins

HB All-American
Sep 21, 2008
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If has been discussed sorry. But this play was almost as big as the flagrant 1. Can't remember when but the TCU guy had to take 4 steps on his layup how the hell refs can miss these travels is beyond amazing. but what is more amazing is the player off on the left side starts his drive from beyond the free throw line and no travel. If you start your drive at the free throw line 9 times out of 10 its traveling.
 
If has been discussed sorry. But this play was almost as big as the flagrant 1. Can't remember when but the TCU guy had to take 4 steps on his layup how the hell refs can miss these travels is beyond amazing. but what is more amazing is the player off on the left side starts his drive from beyond the free throw line and no travel. If you start your drive at the free throw line 9 times out of 10 its traveling.

I know I sounded off about it in another thread, basically bringing up the point on the overall practicality of having a replay system like we do in college basketball.

Again, let me preface my point by saying TCU deserved to win and Iowa deserved to lose (you can't shoot FTs like that and turn the ball over and expect to beat a high octane offensive team). Regardless, the whole point of replay is to ostensibly get crucial calls correct, right? Well, unfortunately, because the system is arbitrary and only allows certain parts of the game to be reviewed, the element of human error is still in play, but does get corrected for certain things, that overall might actually create a greater advantage or disadvantage for a team than what it was originally designed to correct.

What do I mean? Look at this year in college basketball the close games that would have had a different outcome had replay been allowed to be used to correct obvious egregious calls (or non calls). Example 1: KSU at Kansas. Kansas player picks up dribble behind 3 point line, races to the basket, steps around a defender in the lane, taking exactly 5 1/2 steps before putting in the winning lay up as time expired. Pretty crucial play, correct? Well, unfortunately, officials can't buzz down to the game officials like they do in college football to say, "Hey, check this play out. He likely traveled." So, nope, game over despite the egregious error. However, had the kid pulled up for a 3 pointer and been close to the line, the officials could have taken an inordinate amount of time to review whether his toe was on the line, like they did Jok (and ultimately take a point away--furthermore, they were able to review that at the next commercial break several plays later). But the TCU player taking 4 steps and getting granted an And1? Nope, not reviewable. So there, right there, is a difference of 3-4 points (depending if the kid made the free throw or not). Get my point? Replay is completely arbitrary.

To go one step further, consider the Iowa vs. Minnesota game and recently Northwestern vs. Gonzaga. Iowa/Minnesota we don't have to discuss, we all know what happened, and it cost Iowa a game and likely a trip to the NCAA. In the NW/Zags game, NW has momentum and clearly scored a basket--as the Zags player made an obvious goal tend. Is that play reviewable despite how egregious the error is? Nope. Not only that, they teed up Collins for protesting the call. You see? It's ridiculous. But any "hard" foul or perceived "intentional" foul, like Nick Baer trying to stop a lay up, they can go and review that for eons until they feel comfortable calling a Flagrant 1 (which thanks to the NCAA, was the correct call in that situation). The point obviously being some calls are reviewable, others not, making the system arbitrary and at times more unfair than if human error was just allowed to be part of the game, not to mention how much time is wasted reviewing plays.

Yes, I get it, you can't review every play, like judgment calls about whether or not a foul was or wasn't committed. However, for certain things like, was a time out being called, did a player actually goal tend, did a player travel, you know, when things are obviously black and white, one way or the other, then yes, those should be allowed to be reviewed. If not, get rid of the whole system and live with officiating errors, because as it is right now 1) the games are still not being called correctly, and at times worse because of the arbitrary correction of some calls and 2) a ridiculous amount of time is wasted going to the monitor in light of point number 1.

Okay, this is me jumping down from the soapbox. Thanks.
 
Replay is completely arbitrary. Bill Belichick has been pushing for the same thing. The NFL has an arbitrary set of reviewable items, while Belichick wants them to review anything and everything. I agree.
 
I thought I saw the ref motioning to one of the superfans with floor seats during a tv timeout that the guy had bubbled the pass and thus didn't travel. I was on the wrong side to see whether that is true, but could explain it.
 
I thought I saw the ref motioning to one of the superfans with floor seats during a tv timeout that the guy had bubbled the pass and thus didn't travel. I was on the wrong side to see whether that is true, but could explain it.

What is 'bubbled'?
 
I thought I saw the ref motioning to one of the superfans with floor seats during a tv timeout that the guy had bubbled the pass and thus didn't travel. I was on the wrong side to see whether that is true, but could explain it.

Even if it was bobbled on the 1st step, he took 3 more. his foot came down right after he caught the pass then took 3 more steps. The game as a whole was poorly officiated.
 
Bobbling the catch is the only thing I could think of at the time.

I also agree...Iowa fans just have to let this season go. "Next year" began the moment the horn sounded ending the TCU game.
 
I rewatched that play multiple times. He actually caught the ball at the 3 point line. Didn't bobble the ball and they did in fact give him an and one as well. I've said this many times throughout the season, I get some judgement calls can be difficult but a travel call is black and white. Shouldn't ever be an issue.
 
I know I sounded off about it in another thread, basically bringing up the point on the overall practicality of having a replay system like we do in college basketball.

Again, let me preface my point by saying TCU deserved to win and Iowa deserved to lose (you can't shoot FTs like that and turn the ball over and expect to beat a high octane offensive team). Regardless, the whole point of replay is to ostensibly get crucial calls correct, right? Well, unfortunately, because the system is arbitrary and only allows certain parts of the game to be reviewed, the element of human error is still in play, but does get corrected for certain things, that overall might actually create a greater advantage or disadvantage for a team than what it was originally designed to correct.

What do I mean? Look at this year in college basketball the close games that would have had a different outcome had replay been allowed to be used to correct obvious egregious calls (or non calls). Example 1: KSU at Kansas. Kansas player picks up dribble behind 3 point line, races to the basket, steps around a defender in the lane, taking exactly 5 1/2 steps before putting in the winning lay up as time expired. Pretty crucial play, correct? Well, unfortunately, officials can't buzz down to the game officials like they do in college football to say, "Hey, check this play out. He likely traveled." So, nope, game over despite the egregious error. However, had the kid pulled up for a 3 pointer and been close to the line, the officials could have taken an inordinate amount of time to review whether his toe was on the line, like they did Jok (and ultimately take a point away--furthermore, they were able to review that at the next commercial break several plays later). But the TCU player taking 4 steps and getting granted an And1? Nope, not reviewable. So there, right there, is a difference of 3-4 points (depending if the kid made the free throw or not). Get my point? Replay is completely arbitrary.

To go one step further, consider the Iowa vs. Minnesota game and recently Northwestern vs. Gonzaga. Iowa/Minnesota we don't have to discuss, we all know what happened, and it cost Iowa a game and likely a trip to the NCAA. In the NW/Zags game, NW has momentum and clearly scored a basket--as the Zags player made an obvious goal tend. Is that play reviewable despite how egregious the error is? Nope. Not only that, they teed up Collins for protesting the call. You see? It's ridiculous. But any "hard" foul or perceived "intentional" foul, like Nick Baer trying to stop a lay up, they can go and review that for eons until they feel comfortable calling a Flagrant 1 (which thanks to the NCAA, was the correct call in that situation). The point obviously being some calls are reviewable, others not, making the system arbitrary and at times more unfair than if human error was just allowed to be part of the game, not to mention how much time is wasted reviewing plays.

Yes, I get it, you can't review every play, like judgment calls about whether or not a foul was or wasn't committed. However, for certain things like, was a time out being called, did a player actually goal tend, did a player travel, you know, when things are obviously black and white, one way or the other, then yes, those should be allowed to be reviewed. If not, get rid of the whole system and live with officiating errors, because as it is right now 1) the games are still not being called correctly, and at times worse because of the arbitrary correction of some calls and 2) a ridiculous amount of time is wasted going to the monitor in light of point number 1.

Okay, this is me jumping down from the soapbox. Thanks.

I agree with everything you just said. The NCAA has to change their review process, especially for the NCAA tournament. They have an "Alternate" official who is sitting right there court side with a monitor in front of them. They have access to all the replays that are shown on TV. Why wouldn't you allow that official to look at the replay and make a ruling??

In the Iowa game, they called a jump ball (dead ball period) stop the game and go look at it. If they notice the guys foot was on the line, over turn the call and move on?

Too much $$ into this sport to have it decided by 3 guys in stripes. There has to be a solution to this, but I know the NCAA will never allow a coaches challenge. They do not want to "undermine" their officials.
 
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I thought I saw the ref motioning to one of the superfans with floor seats during a tv timeout that the guy had bubbled the pass and thus didn't travel. I was on the wrong side to see whether that is true, but could explain it.

Thats a refs cop out (motioning the bubbled pass). What the ref is really saying is- I missed that one.
 
I agree with everything you just said. The NCAA has to change their review process, especially for the NCAA tournament. They have an "Alternate" official who is sitting right there court side with a monitor in front of them. They have access to all the replays that are shown on TV. Why wouldn't you allow that official to look at the replay and make a ruling??

In the Iowa game, they called a jump ball (dead ball period) stop the game and go look at it. If they notice the guys foot was on the line, over turn the call and move on?

Too much $$ into this sport to have it decided by 3 guys in stripes. There has to be a solution to this, but I know the NCAA will never allow a coaches challenge. They do not want to "undermine" their officials.

And perhaps he would have an extra whistle to give to refs that lose theirs! :) Not one that he would use with his own lips of course! :)
 
I agree, we wish there were ways of reversing the calls. You just don't want it to turn into a "reviewing every single play" kinda thing as a solution.

It's unfortunate, nothing at the moment that can be done, hope there's a way to in the future...but otherwise, time to move on (and grumble about it for decades to come;) ).
 
I know I sounded off about it in another thread, basically bringing up the point on the overall practicality of having a replay system like we do in college basketball.

Again, let me preface my point by saying TCU deserved to win and Iowa deserved to lose (you can't shoot FTs like that and turn the ball over and expect to beat a high octane offensive team). Regardless, the whole point of replay is to ostensibly get crucial calls correct, right? Well, unfortunately, because the system is arbitrary and only allows certain parts of the game to be reviewed, the element of human error is still in play, but does get corrected for certain things, that overall might actually create a greater advantage or disadvantage for a team than what it was originally designed to correct.

What do I mean? Look at this year in college basketball the close games that would have had a different outcome had replay been allowed to be used to correct obvious egregious calls (or non calls). Example 1: KSU at Kansas. Kansas player picks up dribble behind 3 point line, races to the basket, steps around a defender in the lane, taking exactly 5 1/2 steps before putting in the winning lay up as time expired. Pretty crucial play, correct? Well, unfortunately, officials can't buzz down to the game officials like they do in college football to say, "Hey, check this play out. He likely traveled." So, nope, game over despite the egregious error. However, had the kid pulled up for a 3 pointer and been close to the line, the officials could have taken an inordinate amount of time to review whether his toe was on the line, like they did Jok (and ultimately take a point away--furthermore, they were able to review that at the next commercial break several plays later). But the TCU player taking 4 steps and getting granted an And1? Nope, not reviewable. So there, right there, is a difference of 3-4 points (depending if the kid made the free throw or not). Get my point? Replay is completely arbitrary.

To go one step further, consider the Iowa vs. Minnesota game and recently Northwestern vs. Gonzaga. Iowa/Minnesota we don't have to discuss, we all know what happened, and it cost Iowa a game and likely a trip to the NCAA. In the NW/Zags game, NW has momentum and clearly scored a basket--as the Zags player made an obvious goal tend. Is that play reviewable despite how egregious the error is? Nope. Not only that, they teed up Collins for protesting the call. You see? It's ridiculous. But any "hard" foul or perceived "intentional" foul, like Nick Baer trying to stop a lay up, they can go and review that for eons until they feel comfortable calling a Flagrant 1 (which thanks to the NCAA, was the correct call in that situation). The point obviously being some calls are reviewable, others not, making the system arbitrary and at times more unfair than if human error was just allowed to be part of the game, not to mention how much time is wasted reviewing plays.

Yes, I get it, you can't review every play, like judgment calls about whether or not a foul was or wasn't committed. However, for certain things like, was a time out being called, did a player actually goal tend, did a player travel, you know, when things are obviously black and white, one way or the other, then yes, those should be allowed to be reviewed. If not, get rid of the whole system and live with officiating errors, because as it is right now 1) the games are still not being called correctly, and at times worse because of the arbitrary correction of some calls and 2) a ridiculous amount of time is wasted going to the monitor in light of point number 1.

Okay, this is me jumping down from the soapbox. Thanks.

I agree, the review rule needs improvement and it will take some time for college basketball to get it right. It will never be like the NBA game because they are responsible for, at most, 16 games on any given night and can review all games in the command center at the same time. You could never do that in college basketball.

Using replay to referee violations is a slippery slope. The intention of it was to correct egregious errors, not to allow officials to "referee plays at the monitor". Now we're talking about splitting hairs on all sorts of plays at the end of a game. You can only take it so far before the product on the court is damaged by reviews that stop play so much, interrupt flow, and make watching the game a bore. The beauty of basketball is it's continuous play and flow. Replay is there to correct the obvious, game deciding errors, though not to correct mistakes in play-calling made by officials.

I re-watched the Kansas/KSU play about 6 times after reading your rant. The dude took 3 steps after gathering the ball, not 5 and a half.
 
Thats a refs cop out (motioning the bubbled pass). What the ref is really saying is- I missed that one.

No, it's not. If there isn't complete control, there isn't a travel. It's much better for an official err on the side of not calling a travel when they don't have confirmed control rather than calling a travel on a play where a fumbled ball is not controlled by the player and no travel violation was actually committed.
 
The point stands that everyone knows you cannot get from just beyond half court for a layup without a travel being involved and should have been a no brainer.
 
No, it's not. If there isn't complete control, there isn't a travel. It's much better for an official err on the side of not calling a travel when they don't have confirmed control rather than calling a travel on a play where a fumbled ball is not controlled by the player and no travel violation was actually committed.

I was joking and not joking.

And its the similar to the Geico commercial with the refs.

I coach a fair amount of junior high basketball and the explanations I get sometimes for blown calls is comical. I wish sometimes they would just say I blew it and I owe you a call.
 
I agree, the review rule needs improvement and it will take some time for college basketball to get it right. It will never be like the NBA game because they are responsible for, at most, 16 games on any given night and can review all games in the command center at the same time. You could never do that in college basketball.

Using replay to referee violations is a slippery slope. The intention of it was to correct egregious errors, not to allow officials to "referee plays at the monitor". Now we're talking about splitting hairs on all sorts of plays at the end of a game. You can only take it so far before the product on the court is damaged by reviews that stop play so much, interrupt flow, and make watching the game a bore. The beauty of basketball is it's continuous play and flow. Replay is there to correct the obvious, game deciding errors, though not to correct mistakes in play-calling made by officials.

I re-watched the Kansas/KSU play about 6 times after reading your rant. The dude took 3 steps after gathering the ball, not 5 and a half.

Yeah, his right foot had just come up when he caught the ball, his left foot hit right at the 3 pt line (that becomes the pivot foot), his right foot hits right at the elbow, then his left hits right at the XII symbol in the lane about 10 feet from the basket which he jumps off and he releases at about the restricted area on the right side of the basket. It was definitely a travel as he went L/R/L, but it's not as egregious as it sounds.

It looked way worse because he initiated his last dribble about 30 feet from the basket and caught it around 23-25 feet from the basket. But if you count the actual steps after the catch, it was three.
 
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Too much $$ into this sport to have it decided by 3 guys in stripes. There has to be a solution to this, but I know the NCAA will never allow a coaches challenge. They do not want to "undermine" their officials.

This has nothing to do with it. And it may be coming. Not this time around, in 2017, but perhaps in 2019, which is the next rule change year after 2017.
 
I was joking and not joking.

And its the similar to the Geico commercial with the refs.

I coach a fair amount of junior high basketball and the explanations I get sometimes for blown calls is comical. I wish sometimes they would just say I blew it and I owe you a call.

you we're joking. I gotcha. I didn't pick that up in your comment. My fault.

I would say your encounter with junior high officials shouldn't be used as a barometer for officials and their abilities. When I used to referee HS basketball (only college now), I realized how poorly trained many of them were, let alone their grasp of the rule book.

Throughout the year, when I have kicked a call, I have no problem getting over in front of the coach and saying, "coach, I didn't like that call either." "Coach, I'd love to have that one back" "Coach you don't have to say anything, I know." "Coach, I know I missed it. We have to move on from that play, so will you give me that one? I know I can't miss that one again." Pretty much every time I talk to a coach that way, they understand. They know how much I care about what I'm doing, and sometimes we miss stuff. Although, if a coach EVER tells me that I owe him, I will stop him cold in his tracks. No WAY that I'm playing that game. If I miss a play, I miss it. I'll match up marginal plays on both ends, but I'll NEVER make up a call on the other end because the coach thinks I owe him. Ever.
 
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The point stands that everyone knows you cannot get from just beyond half court for a layup without a travel being involved and should have been a no brainer.

That doesn't make sense, but I think I know what you're trying to say.

And, he didn't go from just beyond halfcourt without dribbling. He picked his dribble up, took three steps instead of the 1.5 he is allowed by rule, and he traveled. Your point about beyond "just beyond half court" doesn't apply to the situation, so I'm not sure why you keep trying to reinforce it.
 
That doesn't make sense, but I think I know what you're trying to say.

And, he didn't go from just beyond halfcourt without dribbling. He picked his dribble up, took three steps instead of the 1.5 he is allowed by rule, and he traveled. Your point about beyond "just beyond half court" doesn't apply to the situation, so I'm not sure why you keep trying to reinforce it.
Not sure why you are saying i try to reinforce it. I have only replied once to this thread. And yes my point does stand. he started touching the ball just beyond halfcourt in his front court. You cannot get from there for a layup without a dribble without traveling. I never said he took dribbles. Point is he traveled and was so wide open no way it should have been missed. End of story.
 
I re-watched the Kansas/KSU play about 6 times after reading your rant. The dude took 3 steps after gathering the ball, not 5 and a half.

I'd like to think of it more as a diatribe, and lol, dude, I was exaggerating for effect. It was more like 3 and 1/2 steps, if I remember correctly, but unlike you, I'm not going to take the time to go back and rewatch it. Not even germane to my point.
 
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