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This is a Logistics Problem at its root....

Joes Place

HB King
Aug 28, 2003
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"Opening back up" isn't a piecemeal, haphazard exercise. It's a logistics problem.

Currently, we have a PPE burn rate and resupply rate. Fundamentally, your ability to re-open is rooted on:

  • PPE resupply
  • ICU Beds available
  • Ventilators
  • Tests
  • Probably other items of less criticality

Work out the numbers: Each new case of COVID19 requires a fraction of those resources:
  • X sets of PPE per case (Maybe 1/3 or 1/4)
  • Y # of beds per case (1/5 or so)
  • Z # of vents per case (probably 1/20 or so)
  • W # of extra tests for each new community spread (maybe 20 tests per new case)

Figure out how much PPE you got, if that is your limiting factor. Whatever you can resupply that at, is how many overall sustainable COVID19 cases you can handle.

Beds-wise, figure out what you have per county or per geographic area. Find out if it is PPE or beds that are your limiting factor.

Same with the other stuff. Just work the numbers out, based on high/low guesses, as to what is your limiting factor. CHANGE those numbers as you find medicines that reduce the #'s of critical care patients.

Now, you know what is sustainable, and how many new cases/day you are able to handle. When you fall below that sustainability number by, say half (EDIT: probably more like 1/5th or less), you allow local "opening back up". And you warn people to maintain social distancing as much as practical. When your area runs over its "limit", you get locked down again. Publicly list those numbers, so people have a target and can see daily whether they are going up or down. Make sure they understand that everything is about a 2 week lag time. You go on lockdown, it's another 2-3 weeks. You see cases increasing, you should lock down early. Set that lockdown number well below your actual sustainability limit.

More rural areas will have far looser criteria. Cities and densely populated areas will have tighter criteria.

Work the numbers out; communicate them to people, so they have a "goal" and can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

This "leave it up to states" nonsense has to stop ESPECIALLY when these states have no clue if they can resupply their PPE or not (and have the federal govt intercept their shipments). So long as this PPE shortage and federal nuisancing of stealing the supplies is going on, you're gonna stay in full lockdown, because NO ONE CAN RUN THEIR NUMBERS. When you don't know what your resupply rate is, your # acceptable cases drops to basically zero.

THIS is the exercise our federal administration should be working out and coordinating with the states. THIS is how you figure out how to "open back up" and do so in a sustainable fashion, so that you don't keep having major outbreaks.

Testing and PPE are going to be the key pacing items; Trump's admin has woefully failed on both. If they can sort their shit out, and stop pitting states against each other, and FACILITATE the distribution based on relative population sizes, we can get shit back to normal faster. But the nonsense being tossed around isn't going to solve anything. Because it is not a plan, it is not a strategy, it has no metrics to track or anything. If they cannot get this type of system working within a month or two, elect an administration that can in November.
 
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All this focus on ventilators, ventilators, ventilators. Even though there is an 80% chance you are dead if you get to that point. Why?

I'd say because it is something that is easy to point at. Look at all the ventilators we will some day build. Doesn't get to the issue of transmission and how to stop the disease from progressing to the need for ICU beds. There is little progress at the real issues.

So we can continue to put people at ease that if they get the disease there will be plenty of ventilators available to give them that 20% shot at surviving. Nobody in this country will ever be turned down the opportunity to be put on a ventilator.
 
"Opening back up" isn't a piecemeal, haphazard exercise. It's a logistics problem.

Currently, we have a PPE burn rate and resupply rate. Fundamentally, your ability to re-open is rooted on:

  • PPE resupply
  • ICU Beds available
  • Ventilators
  • Tests
  • Probably other items of less criticality

Work out the numbers: Each new case of COVID19 requires a fraction of those resources:
  • X sets of PPE per case (Maybe 1/3 or 1/4)
  • Y # of beds per case (1/5 or so)
  • Z # of vents per case (probably 1/20 or so)
  • W # of extra tests for each new community spread (maybe 20 tests per new case)

Figure out how much PPE you got, if that is your limiting factor. Whatever you can resupply that at, is how many overall sustainable COVID19 cases you can handle.

Beds-wise, figure out what you have per county or per geographic area. Find out if it is PPE or beds that are your limiting factor.

Same with the other stuff. Just work the numbers out, based on high/low guesses, as to what is your limiting factor. CHANGE those numbers as you find medicines that reduce the #'s of critical care patients.

Now, you know what is sustainable, and how many new cases/day you are able to handle. When you fall below that sustainability number by, say half (EDIT: probably more like 1/5th or less), you allow local "opening back up". And you warn people to maintain social distancing as much as practical. When your area runs over its "limit", you get locked down again. Publicly list those numbers, so people have a target and can see daily whether they are going up or down. Make sure they understand that everything is about a 2 week lag time. You go on lockdown, it's another 2-3 weeks. You see cases increasing, you should lock down early. Set that lockdown number well below your actual sustainability limit.

More rural areas will have far looser criteria. Cities and densely populated areas will have tighter criteria.

Work the numbers out; communicate them to people, so they have a "goal" and can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

This "leave it up to states" nonsense has to stop ESPECIALLY when these states have no clue if they can resupply their PPE or not (and have the federal govt intercept their shipments). So long as this PPE shortage and federal nuisancing of stealing the supplies is going on, you're gonna stay in full lockdown, because NO ONE CAN RUN THEIR NUMBERS. When you don't know what your resupply rate is, your # acceptable cases drops to basically zero.

THIS is the exercise our federal administration should be working out and coordinating with the states. THIS is how you figure out how to "open back up" and do so in a sustainable fashion, so that you don't keep having major outbreaks.

Testing and PPE are going to be the key pacing items; Trump's admin has woefully failed on both. If they can sort their shit out, and stop pitting states against each other, and FACILITATE the distribution based on relative population sizes, we can get shit back to normal faster. But the nonsense being tossed around isn't going to solve anything. Because it is not a plan, it is not a strategy, it has no metrics to track or anything. If they cannot get this type of system working within a month or two, elect an administration that can in November.

I don't know how to describe what this "Task Force" has done with procurement, but it is not ethical and probably not legal. Why would they purchase equipment and not take delivery? It is very fishy. I was a contracting officer for the government at one point, and I never saw a contractual situation that provided for non possession transfer. This would be a breeding ground for graft and corruption.

I admit, since I am not an attorney that there could be legal issues I am not aware of, but I can't see a situation where this would benefit the government. It can only lead to double dealing and profiteering.

A simple Invitation for Bid, satisfied, with requirements for delivery is a simple transaction. What has the "Task Force" figured out to complicate this further?
 
Last edited:
"Opening back up" isn't a piecemeal, haphazard exercise. It's a logistics problem.

Currently, we have a PPE burn rate and resupply rate. Fundamentally, your ability to re-open is rooted on:

  • PPE resupply
  • ICU Beds available
  • Ventilators
  • Tests
  • Probably other items of less criticality

Work out the numbers: Each new case of COVID19 requires a fraction of those resources:
  • X sets of PPE per case (Maybe 1/3 or 1/4)
  • Y # of beds per case (1/5 or so)
  • Z # of vents per case (probably 1/20 or so)
  • W # of extra tests for each new community spread (maybe 20 tests per new case)

Figure out how much PPE you got, if that is your limiting factor. Whatever you can resupply that at, is how many overall sustainable COVID19 cases you can handle.

Beds-wise, figure out what you have per county or per geographic area. Find out if it is PPE or beds that are your limiting factor.

Same with the other stuff. Just work the numbers out, based on high/low guesses, as to what is your limiting factor. CHANGE those numbers as you find medicines that reduce the #'s of critical care patients.

Now, you know what is sustainable, and how many new cases/day you are able to handle. When you fall below that sustainability number by, say half (EDIT: probably more like 1/5th or less), you allow local "opening back up". And you warn people to maintain social distancing as much as practical. When your area runs over its "limit", you get locked down again. Publicly list those numbers, so people have a target and can see daily whether they are going up or down. Make sure they understand that everything is about a 2 week lag time. You go on lockdown, it's another 2-3 weeks. You see cases increasing, you should lock down early. Set that lockdown number well below your actual sustainability limit.

More rural areas will have far looser criteria. Cities and densely populated areas will have tighter criteria.

Work the numbers out; communicate them to people, so they have a "goal" and can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

This "leave it up to states" nonsense has to stop ESPECIALLY when these states have no clue if they can resupply their PPE or not (and have the federal govt intercept their shipments). So long as this PPE shortage and federal nuisancing of stealing the supplies is going on, you're gonna stay in full lockdown, because NO ONE CAN RUN THEIR NUMBERS. When you don't know what your resupply rate is, your # acceptable cases drops to basically zero.

THIS is the exercise our federal administration should be working out and coordinating with the states. THIS is how you figure out how to "open back up" and do so in a sustainable fashion, so that you don't keep having major outbreaks.

Testing and PPE are going to be the key pacing items; Trump's admin has woefully failed on both. If they can sort their shit out, and stop pitting states against each other, and FACILITATE the distribution based on relative population sizes, we can get shit back to normal faster. But the nonsense being tossed around isn't going to solve anything. Because it is not a plan, it is not a strategy, it has no metrics to track or anything. If they cannot get this type of system working within a month or two, elect an administration that can in November.

If Trump opens the country back up (it's his glory but the governors' responsibility), and the results are a huge spike in cases and deaths, wouldn't that likely be the death blow to Trump's re-election chances you are hoping for?
 
If Trump opens the country back up (it's his glory but the governors' responsibility), and the results are a huge spike in cases and deaths, wouldn't that likely be the death blow to Trump's re-election chances you are hoping for?

I don't give two shits about the impact this has on his re-election chances. Based on his record to date, I think that's fairly unlikely. He hasn't been capable of mounting a coherent response to this outbreak, and the people he has put in charge are clearly not competent to manage it.

I do think if he "opens back up" and we see the 2nd wave just as bad as the first, he'd clearly be toast. Yet, I'm fully against him "opening everything back up". Does that mean I want him re-elected?
 
"Opening back up" isn't a piecemeal, haphazard exercise. It's a logistics problem.

Currently, we have a PPE burn rate and resupply rate. Fundamentally, your ability to re-open is rooted on:

  • PPE resupply
  • ICU Beds available
  • Ventilators
  • Tests
  • Probably other items of less criticality

Work out the numbers: Each new case of COVID19 requires a fraction of those resources:
  • X sets of PPE per case (Maybe 1/3 or 1/4)
  • Y # of beds per case (1/5 or so)
  • Z # of vents per case (probably 1/20 or so)
  • W # of extra tests for each new community spread (maybe 20 tests per new case)

Figure out how much PPE you got, if that is your limiting factor. Whatever you can resupply that at, is how many overall sustainable COVID19 cases you can handle.

Beds-wise, figure out what you have per county or per geographic area. Find out if it is PPE or beds that are your limiting factor.

Same with the other stuff. Just work the numbers out, based on high/low guesses, as to what is your limiting factor. CHANGE those numbers as you find medicines that reduce the #'s of critical care patients.

Now, you know what is sustainable, and how many new cases/day you are able to handle. When you fall below that sustainability number by, say half (EDIT: probably more like 1/5th or less), you allow local "opening back up". And you warn people to maintain social distancing as much as practical. When your area runs over its "limit", you get locked down again. Publicly list those numbers, so people have a target and can see daily whether they are going up or down. Make sure they understand that everything is about a 2 week lag time. You go on lockdown, it's another 2-3 weeks. You see cases increasing, you should lock down early. Set that lockdown number well below your actual sustainability limit.

More rural areas will have far looser criteria. Cities and densely populated areas will have tighter criteria.

Work the numbers out; communicate them to people, so they have a "goal" and can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

This "leave it up to states" nonsense has to stop ESPECIALLY when these states have no clue if they can resupply their PPE or not (and have the federal govt intercept their shipments). So long as this PPE shortage and federal nuisancing of stealing the supplies is going on, you're gonna stay in full lockdown, because NO ONE CAN RUN THEIR NUMBERS. When you don't know what your resupply rate is, your # acceptable cases drops to basically zero.

THIS is the exercise our federal administration should be working out and coordinating with the states. THIS is how you figure out how to "open back up" and do so in a sustainable fashion, so that you don't keep having major outbreaks.

Testing and PPE are going to be the key pacing items; Trump's admin has woefully failed on both. If they can sort their shit out, and stop pitting states against each other, and FACILITATE the distribution based on relative population sizes, we can get shit back to normal faster. But the nonsense being tossed around isn't going to solve anything. Because it is not a plan, it is not a strategy, it has no metrics to track or anything. If they cannot get this type of system working within a month or two, elect an administration that can in November.

Early on, I recall many pointing out right away that the Trump administration needed to get a high up military logistics officer and his/her team and put them in charge of a large part of this response because nobody in the world would be more qualified to deal with these issues. I think Trump went with Jared instead....
 
Early on, I recall many pointing out right away that the Trump administration needed to get a high up military logistics officer and his/her team and put them in charge of a large part of this response because nobody in the world would be more qualified to deal with these issues. I think Trump went with Jared instead....

The general in charge of the logistics response to Katrina went off on them as well. He was utterly baffled by the 'tactics'. Those "free market" options are literally bankrupting hospitals who are paying multiples for their PPE, vs. being resupplied at-cost by a federal entity.
 
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All this focus on ventilators, ventilators, ventilators. Even though there is an 80% chance you are dead if you get to that point. Why?

I'd say because it is something that is easy to point at. Look at all the ventilators we will some day build. Doesn't get to the issue of transmission and how to stop the disease from progressing to the need for ICU beds. There is little progress at the real issues.

So we can continue to put people at ease that if they get the disease there will be plenty of ventilators available to give them that 20% shot at surviving. Nobody in this country will ever be turned down the opportunity to be put on a ventilator.

This is why I keep screaming about testing. If they can test, identify positives and quarantine them (especially asymptomatic), it would greatly lessen the need for ventilators/ICU.

Kind of similar to me continually talking about keeping people healthy instead of waiting until they have a serious disease/condition.
 
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I don't give two shits about the impact this has on his re-election chances. Based on his record to date, I think that's fairly unlikely. He hasn't been capable of mounting a coherent response to this outbreak, and the people he has put in charge are clearly not competent to manage it.

I do think if he "opens back up" and we see the 2nd wave just as bad as the first, he'd clearly be toast. Yet, I'm fully against him "opening everything back up". Does that mean I want him re-elected?

My point was if this backfires it's on Trump. At this point, especially since you can likely expect another round this fall, why be so adamant against opening up in phases? If we're still completely closed down throughout May, the devastation to our economy, people's mental health, and the civil unrest that will likely occur will inflict far worse damage than the virus itself.
 
If Trump opens the country back up (it's his glory but the governors' responsibility), and the results are a huge spike in cases and deaths, wouldn't that likely be the death blow to Trump's re-election chances you are hoping for?
there never was a huge spike of millions the first round so there sure won't be the second round
 
The general in charge of the logistics response to Katrina went off on them as well. He was utterly baffled by the 'tactics'. Those "free market" options are literally bankrupting hospitals who are paying multiples for their PPE, vs. being resupplied at-cost by a federal entity.
General Honore. Probably a never Trumper. I’ve seen him on TV ripping the response, partially because he is a native of Louisiana and he has retired down there. Louisiana has been very hard hit. It has to be frustrating for people that know how to do big things to watch this s*** show of an administration bungle their response.
 
My point was if this backfires it's on Trump. At this point, especially since you can likely expect another round this fall, why be so adamant against opening up in phases? If we're still completely closed down throughout May, the devastation to our economy, people's mental health, and the civil unrest that will likely occur will inflict far worse damage than the virus itself.
but thus far all backfires have been on dems. russia. kavanaugh. ukraine
 
there never was a huge spike of millions the first round so there sure won't be the second round

Dafuq you talking about, Holmes?

We are at 740,000 confirmed cases right now in the U.S. alone. And that's just the ones we know about. What do you think that number would look like without the strict social distancing? Even Poongrabber has figured that out.

Also, this first wave is far from over. Once again, you're smokin' rocks tin hat man.
 
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