Ukraine's President Warns of Full Scale Russian Invasion

[What Would Jesus Do?]

This discussion could get interesting. Do you know how China is going about trying to grow their middle class? What is the Chinese tax policy?

No, but it would be worth finding out.

Frequently when I hear of some policy they are pursuing I am struck by how sensible it sounds. I suppose I'll stop being surprised by that at some point. In some cases they seem to be following templates laid down by the US or other Western nations. In others, they seem to be deliberately trying to avoid our mistakes.

If our meltdown happened in China, I am convinced that Jamie Diamond and others of his ilk would have been executed. Here they are laughing all the way to the bank, which they probably just bought with taxpayer subsidies.

No, I'm not arguing that we should adopt their system and abandon our constitution. But still . . . if we can't punish those who deliberately and callously acted to cause great harm to millions and millions of Americans (and probably billions around the world), then we are doing something very wrong.

 

[Besthawkfan]

It has been estimated that by 2022 china's middle class should be up to 45%. That is 650 million people. Around 150% of the American population and about 200% of the middle class.

 

[Nat Algren]

But but but Joel said Russia is surrounded by NATO.. You libs are clueless..

Put down the Kool-Aid little Limbaugh. Open link, scroll down and have a gander at the map and you will see that Russia moved their country right up to our military bases.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/05/cheney-largely-responsible-war-ukraine.html

 

[Besthawkfan]

Maybe i'm missing something but russia has always been there and they seem pretty surrounded.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Put down the Kool-Aid little Limbaugh. Open link, scroll down and have a gander at the map and you will see that Russia moved their country right up to our military bases.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/05/cheney-largely-responsible-war-ukraine.html

Ha. And it isn't easy to move a country that big - even if you wait for winter and put it on skis.

Who wrote that article? A third of the way through I looked for the author's name.

 

[Nat Algren]

Maybe i'm missing something but russia has always been there and they seem pretty surrounded.

You're spot on.

 

[Nat Algren]

Ha. And it isn't easy to move a country that big - even if you wait for winter and put it on skis.

Who wrote that article? A third of the way through I looked for the author's name.

I don't see a name attached either. Could be Carl Herman, Eric Zuesse, David Swanson et al. They do a lot of the writing. I honestly cannot pinpoint for this article though.

 

[Nat Algren]

It has been estimated that by 2022 china's middle class should be up to 45%. That is 650 million people. Around 150% of the American population and about 200% of the middle class.

I like your forward thinking. Please post more often...until we disagree. Heh.

 

[Nat Algren]

China and russia are setting up their own economy in Asia. Once they have no need for the dollar we will be in real financial trouble. Unfortunately for us we shipped all of our industry over there. We will not be able to fund or build a military large enough to do anything about it.

There have been reports that this is one reason Russia has been targeted. Saddam started trading oil for Euros. He paid the price. Iran built an Oil Bourse and has been in the cross-hairs. It's dollar hegemony or pay the price. These bankers don't eff around. A little deeper history and not 100% on is that the Czar did not want a central bank.

 

[Besthawkfan]

Yeah, it stinks but our military and sanctions are being used to hold up the petro dollar. Right now we have an advantage over the rest of the world because we have the all mighty reserve status. Once we switched from the gold standard to the fiat status the clock started ticking. The world feels ripped off by our perpetual inflation and they have been scrambling to get out of the dollar economy.

 

[Nat Algren]

Yeah, it stinks but our military and sanctions are being used to hold up the petro dollar. Right now we have an advantage over the rest of the world because we have the all mighty reserve status. Once we switched from the gold standard to the fiat status the clock started ticking. The world feels ripped off by our perpetual inflation and they have been scrambling to get out of the dollar economy.

Bingo! I've been saying the same for years now.

 

[Nat Algren]

Give em some weapons so they can kill Russkies!

What have they done to you? These wars are destroying our economy. This aggression by our leaders is the hallmark of tyrants and the antithesis of freedom.

 

[Besthawkfan]

Well said.

 

[Nat Algren]

You are mistaken, at least officially. Obama has refused to sell them weapons, supplying only non lethal aid. We need to make those Putin patsies pay for every inch.

Ukraine's defense minister said on Sunday that NATO countries were delivering weapons to his country to equip it to fight pro-Russian separatists and "stop" Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Valery Heletey told a news conference he had discussed weapons deliveries in bilateral meetings with NATO defense ministers during a NATO summit in Wales on Sept. 4-5.

NATO officials have said it will not send "lethal assistance" to non-member Ukraine but member states may do so.

Earlier this month, a senior Ukrainian official said Kiev had agreed on the provision of weapons and military advisers from several members of the U.S.-led alliance. Four of the five countries named, including the United States, denied this.

"We reached agreements in closed talks, without media, about ... those weapons that we currently need," said Heletey, who said Ukraine needed weapons "that could stop Putin".

"I have no right to disclose any specific country we reached that agreement with. But the fact is that those weapons are already on the way to us - that's absolutely true, I can officially tell you," he said.

Heletey said about 3,500 Russian troops were now on Ukrainian territory with a further 25,000 massed on the Russian side of the joint border.

Moscow denies accusations by Kiev and its Western backers that it has sent troops and tanks into eastern Ukraine to support separatists in a conflict with Ukrainian forces that has killed more than 3,000 people.

A ceasefire negotiated by envoys from Ukraine, Russia, the separatists and Europe's OSCE security watchdog has been in place in eastern Ukraine since Sept. 5.

It is broadly holding despite regular but sporadic violations, especially in key flashpoints such as Donetsk.



http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/14/us-ukraine-crisis-heletey-idUSKBN0H90PP20140914

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Ukraine's defense minister said on Sunday that NATO countries were delivering weapons to his country to equip it to fight pro-Russian separatists and "stop" Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Valery Heletey told a news conference he had discussed weapons deliveries in bilateral meetings with NATO defense ministers during a NATO summit in Wales on Sept. 4-5.

NATO officials have said it will not send "lethal assistance" to non-member Ukraine but member states may do so.

Earlier this month, a senior Ukrainian official said Kiev had agreed on the provision of weapons and military advisers from several members of the U.S.-led alliance. Four of the five countries named, including the United States, denied this.

"We reached agreements in closed talks, without media, about ... those weapons that we currently need," said Heletey, who said Ukraine needed weapons "that could stop Putin".

"I have no right to disclose any specific country we reached that agreement with. But the fact is that those weapons are already on the way to us - that's absolutely true, I can officially tell you," he said.

Heletey said about 3,500 Russian troops were now on Ukrainian territory with a further 25,000 massed on the Russian side of the joint border.

Moscow denies accusations by Kiev and its Western backers that it has sent troops and tanks into eastern Ukraine to support separatists in a conflict with Ukrainian forces that has killed more than 3,000 people.

A ceasefire negotiated by envoys from Ukraine, Russia, the separatists and Europe's OSCE security watchdog has been in place in eastern Ukraine since Sept. 5.

It is broadly holding despite regular but sporadic violations, especially in key flashpoints such as Donetsk.



http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/14/us-ukraine-crisis-heletey-idUSKBN0H90PP20140914

What they are tiptoeing around is the issue of violating territorial integrity. We (the US mainly, but also some others in NATO) want to be able to craft a UN resolution authorizing the use of force against Russia and the separatists. So we have to maintain deniability when it comes to our own violations of Ukraine's territorial integrity.

It's important for us to deny that we engineered the coup. Even though we did.

It's important for us to insist that the current Kiev government is legit. Even though the elections were a farce.

It's important for us to call our troops in Ukraine "advisers" while we call Russia's "soldiers."

It's important to blame the separatists and the Russians for all cease fire violations, even though neither side has respected the cease fire except when it felt like it and it's pretty well-established that the early violations and most of the violence came (and still comes) from the Kiev side.

And, of course, it's important that our arming of Kiev be construed, somehow, to be very different from Russia's arming of the separatists.

Heck, just calling them "separatists" is part of the propaganda package. If you are looking at it from the other side, they are the loyalists or maybe the resistance.

 

[Nat Algren]

What they are tiptoeing around is the issue of violating territorial integrity. We (the US mainly, but also some others in NATO) want to be able to craft a UN resolution authorizing the use of force against Russia and the separatists. So we have to maintain deniability when it comes to our own violations of Ukraine's territorial integrity.

It's important for us to deny that we engineered the coup. Even though we did.

It's important for us to insist that the current Kiev government is legit. Even though the elections were a farce.

It's important for us to call our troops in Ukraine "advisers" while we call Russia's "soldiers."

It's important to blame the separatists and the Russians for all cease fire violations, even though neither side has respected the cease fire except when it felt like it and it's pretty well-established that the early violations and most of the violence came (and still comes) from the Kiev side.

And, of course, it's important that our arming of Kiev be construed, somehow, to be very different from Russia's arming of the separatists.

Heck, just calling them "separatists" is part of the propaganda package. If you are looking at it from the other side, they are the loyalists or maybe the resistance.

What I have learned here is that it is always important for governments to lie. I always assume they are.