What I heard in church yesterday—a question for Christians

[WSC72]

I don’t have a pastor. I never attend church. Just went with my girlfriend and her family yesterday. My girlfriend is pretty indifferent to religion, like me, we were just going as a courtesy to her parents. The whole family thing.

Just a suggestion but maybe find a church in your area that it more based on song and worship than the traditions of a denomination.

We recently changed churches due to some infighting in our congregation and it’s been a world changer for us. We are eager to go every Sunday.

As with anything your life, your decision. I certainly am in no position to judge anyone based on the horrible decisions I have made over time.

Best of luck to you in your search Ragnar.

Signed
Ivar

 

[Hendy hawk]

The short answer, from a Catholic perspective, is no. May require a little more time in the waiting room, but no, they are not screwed.

Waiting Room?
Purgatory?
Is that even mentioned in the bible?

 

[thewop]

What about the unbaptized?
I was baptized as a baby(no choice obviously) so I can “see the light” on my deathbed and “believe” again and I’ll be good, but some people won’t be so lucky.

Baptism is not necessary for heaven

 

[Aardvark86]

Waiting Room?
Purgatory?
Is that even mentioned in the bible?

Sigh. You go on believing sola scriptura if you want. We don't actually, both because of lex orandi, lex credendi, and because certain inferences made sense after smart people thought about them for a few hundred years. Indeed, the very "reason" for the concept of purgatory ties back to the OP's question - would a loving god condemn a couple of thousand years of humanity to be foreclosed from salvation, merely because of issues like the timing of their birth or that their very humanity (which is to say, their innate fallibility) precluded them from being perfect at their time of death?

As for the "waiting room," sure, it's chuckle worthy. If it helps, think of it in the secured transaction sense of 'perfecting' a security interest by filing the ucc-1 with the relevant state organization.

 

[SB_SB]

What the bare minimum I have to do to get into heaven and is there a specific door that has the virgins?

 

[goldmom]

Just a suggestion but maybe find a church in your area that it more based on song and worship than the traditions of a denomination.

We recently changed churches due to some infighting in our congregation and it’s been a world changer for us. We are eager to go every Sunday.

As with anything your life, your decision. I certainly am in no position to judge anyone based on the horrible decisions I have made over time.

Best of luck to you in your search Ragnar.

Signed
Ivar

Any “church” where there’s “infighting” seems like it’s not spending enough time in building an atmosphere of communal love and harmony.

“Whenever two or more of you are gathered in his name, there is love”…or maybe not?

 

[LuciousBDragon]

Faith alone is contradicted by Jesus.

I appreciate your Catholic viewpoint.

But, I think it is important to share the Protestant perspective of sola fide as well.

Jesus’s words on faith alone:
- “He who hears My word and believes…has passed out of death into life” - John 5:24
- Thief on the cross…”Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise” - Luke 23:43
- Jesus compares the Pharisee to the tax collector - Luke 18:9-14 - “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

And then, there is all that stuff Paul said…..

 

[WSC72]

Any “church” where there’s “infighting” seems like it’s not spending enough time in building an atmosphere of communal love and harmony.

“Whenever two or more of you are gathered in his name, there is love”…or maybe not?

Exactly

 

[hawkirugged17]

 

[BrianNole777]

I appreciate your Catholic viewpoint.

But, I think it is important to share the Protestant perspective of sola fide as well.

Jesus’s words on faith alone:
- “He who hears My word and believes…has passed out of death into life” - John 5:24
- Thief on the cross…”Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise” - Luke 23:43
- Jesus compares the Pharisee to the tax collector - Luke 18:9-14 - “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

And then, there is all that stuff Paul said…..

Thanks.

I think faith plus works matter. I think Martin Luther made up Sola Fide because he was terrified of eternal damnation.

He used to spend hours in the Confessional.

 

[LuciousBDragon]

Thanks.

I think faith plus works matter. I think Martin Luther made up Sola Fide because he was terrified of eternal damnation.

He used to spend hours in the Confessional.

Not arguing. I think works are important but are not THE thing.

So instead of faith + works = justification

Faith = justification (and works are a byproduct of faith)

 

[mthawkeyes]

Sigh. You go on believing sola scriptura if you want. We don't actually, both because of lex orandi, lex credendi, and because certain inferences made sense after smart people thought about them for a few hundred years. Indeed, the very "reason" for the concept of purgatory ties back to the OP's question - would a loving god condemn a couple of thousand years of humanity to be foreclosed from salvation, merely because of issues like the timing of their birth or that their very humanity (which is to say, their innate fallibility) precluded them from being perfect at their time of death?

As for the "waiting room," sure, it's chuckle worthy. If it helps, think of it in the secured transaction sense of 'perfecting' a security interest by filing the ucc-1 with the relevant state organization.

If we're going down this road, why would a loving god condemn anyone to an eternity of torment?

 

[BrianNole777]

If we're going down this road, why would a loving god condemn anyone to an eternity of torment?

People choose Hell.

 

[Aardvark86]

I appreciate your Catholic viewpoint.

But, I think it is important to share the Protestant perspective of sola fide as well.

Jesus’s words on faith alone:
- “He who hears My word and believes…has passed out of death into life” - John 5:24
- Thief on the cross…”Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise” - Luke 23:43
- Jesus compares the Pharisee to the tax collector - Luke 18:9-14 - “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

And then, there is all that stuff Paul said…..

i have to say lucious, i agree with you that this really isn't one of those ones that can be solved by sola scriptura...

 

[Hendy hawk]

If we're going down this road, why would a loving god condemn anyone to an eternity of torment?

The Bible teaches that God is love and yet it warns that those who choose to reject God’s offer of salvation, face everlasting punishment. Because humans are given free will, people choose for themselves whether they will accept Jesus or not and therefore they choose where they will spend eternity.

 

[Aardvark86]

If we're going down this road, why would a loving god condemn anyone to an eternity of torment?

well, maybe if they really and truly rejected him. (To be clear, as much as some christians tend to think it's a really really high bar to get in, I tend to think it's actually not.) it's those presbyterians that get me, with their predestination stuff - now that's a cruel god.

 

[BrianNole777]

well, maybe if they really and truly rejected him. (To be clear, as much as some christians tend to think it's a really really high bar to get in, I tend to think it's actually not.) it's those presbyterians that get me, with their predestination stuff - now that's a cruel god.

I think the presbyterian church split decades ago and disagree about predestination now.

Those protestants are always splintering.

 

[Aardvark86]

I think the presbyterian church split decades ago and disagree about predestination now.

Those protestants are always splintering.

presbyterian, calvinist, potato, potahto.

 

[BrianNole777]

presbyterian, calvinist, potato, potahto.

Presbyterian Church USA now supports abortion and gay marriage.

I'm not sure John Calvin would approve.

 

[goldmom]

Presbyterian Church USA now supports abortion and gay marriage.

I'm not sure John Calvin would approve.

So do a very large number of Catholics. Despite what official church dogma says.

 

[LuciousBDragon]

If we're going down this road, why would a loving god condemn anyone to an eternity of torment?

God is Holy. God is just.

God made it clear the penalty for sin is death.

Therefore, your options are as follows:
a) Be perfect and sinless. Holy in your own right.
b) Try to work out your own salvation (legalism)
c) Accept the ransom paid for your salvation through the mercy & grace of our loving God through Christ’s sacrifice (available to all)
d) None of the above

If you choose “d” God says you will be eternally separated from His love since his perfect justice and holiness has no room for exemptions or exceptions.

 

[BrianNole777]

So do a very large number of Catholics. Despite what official church dogma says.

True.