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What if your self-driving car decides one death is better than two — and that one is you?

cigaretteman

HB King
May 29, 2001
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The year is 2035. The world’s population is 9 billion. The polar ice caps have totally melted and Saudi Arabia has run out of oil. Will Smith is battling murderous robots. Matt Damon is stranded on Mars. Dippin’ Dots is finally the ice cream of the present.

You’re humming along in your self-driving car, chatting on your iPhone 37 while the machine navigates on its own. Then a swarm of people appears in the street, right in the path of the oncoming vehicle.

There’s a calculation to be made — avoid the crowd and crash the owner, or stay on track and take many lives? — and no one is at the wheel to make it. Except, of course, the car itself.

Now that this hypothetical future looks less and less like a “Jetsons” episode and more like an inevitability (well, except for the bit about Dippin’ Dots), makers of self-driving cars — and the millions of people they hope will buy them — have some ethical questions to ask themselves: Should cars be programmed for utilitarianism when lives are at stake? Who is responsible for the consequences? And above all, are we comfortable with an algorithm making those decisions for us? In a new study, researchers from MIT, the University of Oregon and the Toulouse School of Economics went ahead and got some answers.

These are heady questions folks, so buckle up.

The authors of the study, which has been pre-released online but is not yet published in a peer reviewed journal, are psychologists, not philosophers. Rather than seeking the most moral algorithm, they wanted to know what algorithm potential participants in a self-driving world would be most comfortable with.

The city built for self-driving cars
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The University of Michigan teamed up with automakers, tech companies and the Michigan Department of Transportation to create a place to test self-driving cars. (University of Michigan)
Given the potential safety benefits of self-driving cars (a recent report estimated that 21,700 fewer people would die on roads where 90 percent of vehicles were autonomous), the authors write, figuring out how to make consumers comfortable with them is both a commercial necessity and a moral imperative. That means that car makers need to “adopt moral algorithms that align with human moral attitudes.”

So what are those attitudes? The researchers developed a series of surveys based on the age-old “trolley problem” to figure them out. In one hypothetical, participants had to choose between driving into a pedestrian or swerving into a barrier, killing the passenger. Others were given the same hypothetical, but had the potential to save 10 pedestrians. Another survey asked if they’d be more comfortable swerving away from 10 people into a barrier, killing the passenger, or into a single pedestrian, killing that person. Sometimes the participants were asked to imagine themselves as the person in the car, other times, as someone outside it. Everyone was asked “What should a human driver do in this situation?” and then, “What about a self-driving car?”

The results largely supported the idea of autonomous vehicles pre-programmed for utilitarianism (sacrificing one life in favor of many). The respondents were generally comfortable with an algorithm that allowed a car to kill its driver in order to save 10 pedestrians. They even favored laws that enforced this algorithm, even though they didn’t think human drivers should be legally required to sacrifice their own lives in the same situation.

Though the survey participants largely agreed autonomous vehicles should be utilitarian, they didn’t necessarily believe the cars would be programmed that way. More than a third of respondents said they thought manufacturers might make cars that protected the passenger, regardless of the number of lives that might be lost.

They had good reason to feel that way: when asked if they would buy a car that would sacrifice its passenger to save other lives, most people balked. Even though they wanted other people to buy self-driving cars — they make roads safer! they’re better for the environment! they serve the greater good! — they were less willing to buy such cars themselves. At the end of the day, most people know they’d feel uncomfortable buying a car that could kill them if it needed to, and most car makers know that too.

Those responses came from just a few hundred people, and there are still many questions that linger about cars that can make life and death decisions on their own, but “figuring out how to build ethical autonomous machines is one of the thorniest challenges in artificial intelligence today,” the study’s authors argue. “As we are about to endow millions of vehicles with autonomy, taking algorithmic morality seriously has never been more urgent.”

Plenty of people agree. The past year or so has seen a surge in studies, surveys and think pieces on the kinds of moral calculations we might assign to self-driving cars. For example, should people be able to choose a “morality setting” on their self-driving car before getting in? California Polytechnic ethicist and Robot Ethics editor Patrick Lin, writing in Wired last year, says no: “In an important sense, any injury that results from our ethics setting may be premeditated if it’s foreseen,” he said. “… This premeditation is the difference between manslaughter and murder, a much more serious offense.”

Another big question: Will, at some point, humans be banned from driving altogether? Stanford political scientist Ken Shotts said that could happen.

“There are precedents for it,” he wrote in a Q&A on the university’s Web site. Such as building houses. “This used to be something we all did for ourselves with no government oversight 150 years ago. That’s a very immediate thing — it’s your dwelling, your castle. But if you try to build a house in most of the United States nowadays … you can’t do it yourself unless you follow all those rules. We’ve taken that out of individuals’ hands because we viewed there were beneficial consequences of taking it out of individuals’ hands. That may well happen for cars.”

The biggest ethical problem, self-driving car proponents say, would be to keep autonomous vehicles off the road, given the number of traffic the technology is projected to prevent.

“The biggest ethical question is how quickly we move,” Bryant Walker-Smith, an assistant professor at the University of South Carolina who studies the legal and social implications of self-driving vehicles, told the MIT Technology Review in July. We have a technology that potentially could save a lot of people, but is going to be imperfect and is going to kill.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...death-is-better-than-two-and-that-one-is-you/
 
The question seems far too cut and dried in my opinion.

It would be extremely odd for a large group of pedestrians to enter the street in a place where the car is going so fast that swerving and crashing it into a guardrail, telephone pole or other object would kill the driver.

Only place I know where large groups of pedestrians cross the street is a city or at the very least a town where you are usually going what 30 MPH? I would think swerving and hitting something at that speed might wreak you car but it shouldn't kill you.

Might kill you if you are going 70. . . but why would you be going 70 in a place where there are pedestrians present unless you really are trying to kill them or you have just outright lost your mind. 2 things that a self driving car theoretically shouldn't do.
 
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Who in their right mind would buy a self-driving car?

I wouldn't, but people that think they wouldn't be safe aren't paying attention to how bad people drive today. It's like the comedian that asked would you rather have a drunk behind the wheel or somebody texting? A drunk for sure because at least somebody is driving the car.

Plus the mfers that are in a hurry in the morning riding your ass and weaving in and out of lanes, people veering into other lanes on their phone, beating red lights, people driving too slow entering traffic . . .
 
I wouldn't, but people that think they wouldn't be safe aren't paying attention to how bad people drive today. It's like the comedian that asked would you rather have a drunk behind the wheel or somebody texting? A drunk for sure because at least somebody is driving the car.

Plus the mfers that are in a hurry in the morning riding your ass and weaving in and out of lanes, people veering into other lanes on their phone, beating red lights, people driving too slow entering traffic . . .

That's why the self driving car is going to have a hard time getting off the ground. Everyone has confidence in their own driving, they just think that it's the other people who are terrible drivers.

I don't think we are to the point where we are willing to give up control to a machine that much.
 
That's why the self driving car is going to have a hard time getting off the ground. Everyone has confidence in their own driving, they just think that it's the other people who are terrible drivers.

I don't think we are to the point where we are willing to give up control to a machine that much.

No, but I think the cradle to the grave tech generation might.
 
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People enjoy the autonomy of driving cars and riding motorcycles. Good luck trying to change that. These researchers and academics ought to take their brilliance and an apply it to mass transit.
 
No, but I think the cradle to the grave tech generation might.

Maybe but I doubt it. They are used to tech which allows them to do things easier and faster as well as communicate in different ways.

This is different, it's a matter of control. People generally don't like to give up control.

In what other way has tech caused the ordinary person to give up control over their own daily lives?
At most cars will only have the option of self driving, an option most people turn off most of the time. Perhaps it would be used in long road trips.
 
The question seems far too cut and dried in my opinion.

It would be extremely odd for a large group of pedestrians to enter the street in a place where the car is going so fast that swerving and crashing it into a guardrail, telephone pole or other object would kill the driver.

Only place I know where large groups of pedestrians cross the street is a city or at the very least a town where you are usually going what 30 MPH? I would think swerving and hitting something at that speed might wreak you car but it shouldn't kill you.

Might kill you if you are going 70. . . but why would you be going 70 in a place where there are pedestrians present unless you really are trying to kill them or you have just outright lost your mind. 2 things that a self driving car theoretically shouldn't do.

In NYC there are bikes coming at you, people crossing at intersections, cars stopped in mid of intersectiosns and generally all at the same time. Traffic is generally going much faster than 30 but not sure what difference it makes. the car has to have just the right sensing technologies and a reasoning aspect that I can not follow. I don't see how it ever works in cities of any significant size. Also- if you are driving down a road with 4 people in the car, and a dog runs in front of car. Does car swerve into a tree killing everyone but avoiding the dog. Etc etc etc..
 
In NYC there are bikes coming at you, people crossing at intersections, cars stopped in mid of intersectiosns and generally all at the same time. Traffic is generally going much faster than 30 but not sure what difference it makes. the car has to have just the right sensing technologies and a reasoning aspect that I can not follow. I don't see how it ever works in cities of any significant size. Also- if you are driving down a road with 4 people in the car, and a dog runs in front of car. Does car swerve into a tree killing everyone but avoiding the dog. Etc etc etc..
Google already has several self driving cars in the Palo Alto area I believe. Only one accident that I can remember off the top of my head and it wasn't the google cars fault.
 
People enjoy the autonomy of driving cars and riding motorcycles. Good luck trying to change that. These researchers and academics ought to take their brilliance and an apply it to mass transit.

It's already changing. Kids today are not nearly as in love with driving as we were. It's a pretty major culture shift that I've noticed. Self driving cars are inevitable, and that's a very good thing. Fewer deaths, less traffic, less energy wasted. Win, win, win.
 
It's already changing. Kids today are not nearly as in love with driving as we were. It's a pretty major culture shift that I've noticed. Self driving cars are inevitable, and that's a very good thing. Fewer deaths, less traffic, less energy wasted. Win, win, win.
Except where it impacts employment.
 
Maybe but I doubt it. They are used to tech which allows them to do things easier and faster as well as communicate in different ways.

This is different, it's a matter of control. People generally don't like to give up control.

In what other way has tech caused the ordinary person to give up control over their own daily lives?
At most cars will only have the option of self driving, an option most people turn off most of the time. Perhaps it would be used in long road trips.

Yeah, I disagree. My daughter hates driving. I know kids that haven't even taken the test and are in no hurry to do so. This is only partly about control. It's mostly about trust.
 
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Yeah, I disagree. My daughter hates driving. I know kids that haven't even taken the test and are in no hurry to do so. This is only partly about control. It's mostly about trust.

Some people are afraid to start driving and hesistate. My wife had an accident and went without a license without a while because she feared it. (Before we met) My cousin put off getting a license until she was in college.

It might catch on with a few but I don't think most will go for it. I'm pretty sure that many cars that don't have manual driving option would sell.
 
It's already changing. Kids today are not nearly as in love with driving as we were. It's a pretty major culture shift that I've noticed. Self driving cars are inevitable, and that's a very good thing. Fewer deaths, less traffic, less energy wasted. Win, win, win.

Interesting.
 
Some people are afraid to start driving and hesistate. My wife had an accident and went without a license without a while because she feared it. (Before we met) My cousin put off getting a license until she was in college.

It might catch on with a few but I don't think most will go for it. I'm pretty sure that many cars that don't have manual driving option would sell.

I'm telling you, as artradley stated, driving isn't as big of a milestone for kids today. Regardless, we live in a society that if you make it, people will use it.

Early in the cell phone era I thought to myself, surely parents won't be giving these GD things to their children . . . nobody even hesitated. When self-driving cars are here people will use them. It will be slower in the U.S. than Europe as they already drive tiny cars just to fit into traffic, but it will happen.
 
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In NYC there are bikes coming at you, people crossing at intersections, cars stopped in mid of intersectiosns and generally all at the same time. Traffic is generally going much faster than 30 but not sure what difference it makes. the car has to have just the right sensing technologies and a reasoning aspect that I can not follow. I don't see how it ever works in cities of any significant size. Also- if you are driving down a road with 4 people in the car, and a dog runs in front of car. Does car swerve into a tree killing everyone but avoiding the dog. Etc etc etc..
WIth all the sensors and cameras on all sides of a self driving car and the ability to compute all that information at the same time. I would think a self driving car would be much safer in that type of situation. Though at the same time with how cautious it would need to be it would piss all the none self driving cars off with how much it may slow down driving.

Pretty much all accidents already happen due to someone not paying attention to something for some period of time. A self driving system will know exact conditions on the road with sensors and cameras watching out at every angle, then it takes all that information into account when making decisions.

A self driving car would notice a large group of pedestrians in the road in more then enough time to safely stop.
 
I'd have to think that by 2035 we'd have hover-cars, so it would be easy to avoid the swarm.

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I'm telling you, as artradley stated, driving isn't as big of a milestone for kids today. Regardless, we live in a society that if you make it, people will use it.

Early in the cell phone era I thought to myself, surely parents won't be giving these GD things to their children . . . nobody even hesitated. When self-driving cars are here people will use them. It will be slower in the U.S. than Europe as they already drive tiny cars just to fit into traffic, but it will happen.

On a side note if that is true I think my son will be the exception. (he's 2) For the last year or so of his life cars where the most exciting things in the world to him. We went to the Indy children's museum a while back and they have a massive play area with lots to do. I let him free and just sort of stayed with him. Instead of playing with all of those things, he runs over to the window and looks down at the street and starts yelling "A car, A car". He stood there doing this for like 20 minutes and I could not interest him in anything else.
 
Seriously? Taxis, dump trucks, trains, planes etc.

Ah, it would affect taxis and potentially the trucking industry. Although I have read an article that at this point truckers expect to embrace the technology but still gave a "driver" in the cab. The larger jets can now be completely controlled safely from the ground, they simply don't do it.
 
Seriously? Taxis, dump trucks, trains, planes etc.

Agreed. While we are at it we should stop using bulldozers, cranes, and backhoes because so many more people could be employed digging with a shovel or even better, a tea spoon.

Are you sure you didn't go to ISU?
 
On a side note if that is true I think my son will be the exception. (he's 2) For the last year or so of his life cars where the most exciting things in the world to him. We went to the Indy children's museum a while back and they have a massive play area with lots to do. I let him free and just sort of stayed with him. Instead of playing with all of those things, he runs over to the window and looks down at the street and starts yelling "A car, A car". He stood there doing this for like 20 minutes and I could not interest him in anything else.

God bless everybody with the courage to take an autistic child out in public.
 
The question seems far too cut and dried in my opinion.

It would be extremely odd for a large group of pedestrians to enter the street in a place where the car is going so fast that swerving and crashing it into a guardrail, telephone pole or other object would kill the driver.

Only place I know where large groups of pedestrians cross the street is a city or at the very least a town where you are usually going what 30 MPH? I would think swerving and hitting something at that speed might wreak you car but it shouldn't kill you.

Might kill you if you are going 70. . . but why would you be going 70 in a place where there are pedestrians present unless you really are trying to kill them or you have just outright lost your mind. 2 things that a self driving car theoretically shouldn't do.

This. Way too simplified and cut and dry. To your point, about the only location for this to happen, would be in city driving, and very rarely are you going to have barricades/barriers in city driving.

This scenario is really talking about a group of pedestrians carelessly wondering across the street in a city setting, and in that case, the car has 3 choices: Swerve left to avoid pedestrians but into oncoming traffic. Break hard staying straight into the pedestrians. Or swerve right onto the sidewalk, and likely a different set of pedestrians. How on earth do you program an algorithm to take those variables into account?

And this is just one scenario. How do you program a car to determine to swerve or stay straight if there's something in the road? Is it going to be able to differentiate between a mostly harmless cardboard box vs a cinder block? Will it automatically swerve to miss a squirrel or cat? Will it know if the car loses control that steering towards the bushes makes more sense than a tree? What about minor flooding where theres water on the road, will it be able to determine how high the water is, and when its safe to continue?

Seems to me there's a boatload of random variables that over the course of time we come into contact with that would be near impossible to program for. And how easy will it be to keep the general populations confidence with the technology once we have someone die because their car avoided running over a squirrel?
 
God bless everybody with the courage to take an autistic child out in public.

He doesn't show any of the major identifiers of autism. He is not bothered by physical contact and in fact often seeks it out. He also can make and hold eye contact. My wife majored in child psychology and we where checking for these things.

He's 2 and he likes cars.
 
I'm telling you, as artradley stated, driving isn't as big of a milestone for kids today. Regardless, we live in a society that if you make it, people will use it.

Teens are opting out...or in many cases being opted out by parents...due to finances. My oldest didn't get his until he was 18...just wasn't interested. When I put him on my insurance, I was glad he waited.
 
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btw, regarding the OP. I think it's a silly premise. There is no way to know with certainly, or even high probability, the number of fatalities likely to occur based on specific actions/reactions. If approaching a large group of pedestrians, regardless of speed, the reaction would be to stop. It's just that simple. It's nuts to think any algorithm would be implemented in which the car would deliberately endanger the cars' occupants.

And as for everybody who says it's "too complicated" to be possible, the fact is there are already self-driving cars successfully navigating thousands of miles of streets without incident. Apparently it's not too complicated.
 
Teens are opting out...or in many cases being opted out by parents...due to finances. My oldest didn't get his until he was 18...just wasn't interested. When I put him on my insurance, I was glad he waited.

It think it's a cultural shift. When I was 13 all I could think about was turning 14 so I could get my learner's permit. My friends and I regularly "borrowed" our parents cars when they weren't around because we craved the freedom that cars represented. But my son, and his friends, were completely ambivalent. I thought it was because, living in New Jersey, the roads were too intimidating for them. But now we're in rural Virginia, my daughter just enrolled in Driver's Ed, and her teacher said her experience is exactly the same -- kid's just don't care. She brought this up in front of several students, and they all agreed.

Our love affair with the car may be waning.
 
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Maybe but I doubt it. They are used to tech which allows them to do things easier and faster as well as communicate in different ways.

This is different, it's a matter of control. People generally don't like to give up control.

In what other way has tech caused the ordinary person to give up control over their own daily lives?
At most cars will only have the option of self driving, an option most people turn off most of the time. Perhaps it would be used in long road trips.
Some cars now have the ability to park themselves. Do people use that functIon? I think some of you are underestimating how many people view cars as just an appliance. Every Honda Accord driver would use the self driving option as they read emails on the way to work.
 
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