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What is more important? Recruiting or Development?

Truitt16

HB All-State
Oct 23, 2002
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Here is an article by Josh Lowe on Intermat on this year's AAs and were they were ranked coming out of HS.

http://intermatwrestle.com/articles/18008

Iowa
Gilman 10
Clark 15
Sorenson 62
Kemerer 11
Brooks 14
Average Rank 22.4

Oklahoma St.
Picinnina 26
Brock 23
Heil 17
Smith 16
Rogers 20
Crutchmer 22
Boyd 100
Weigel WC
Average Rank 32

Penn St.
Retherford 3
Nolf 7
Joseph 7
Hall 1
Nickal 5
Nevills 4
Average Rank 4.5

Ohio St.
Tomaselo 15
M. Jordan 6
B. Jordan 1
Marton 4
Moore 32
Snyder 1
Average Rank 9.83
 
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Based on the recruiting rankings, the team race should have finished 1. PSU, 2. tOSU, 3. Iowa, 4. Okie State.

Did any of the team's underperform expectations?
 
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Let's think about it this way. Suppose you were trying to build a team to go out and win a national title once in 4 years. If you achieved the goal you'd win $5 million. Further suppose that I came down as God and allowed you to do the following: (i) you could select any 10 recruits you wanted, but then I picked a Division 1 coaching staff at random for you, or (ii) you could pick any coaching staff you wanted, but then I picked a random assortment of 10 wrestlers (based on weights) from, say, the top 100 in the recruiting rankings.

Would anyone in their right mind pick option (ii) ever?
 
It's a chicken or the egg type thing. Impossible to say who is or isn't the best at developing talent, because not everyone starts on an even playing field. My personal thoughts are that going to any one of those 4 schools will allow you to reach the top. The rest is on you
 
Let's think about it this way. Suppose you were trying to build a team to go out and win a national title once in 4 years. If you achieved the goal you'd win $5 million. Further suppose that I came down as God and allowed you to do the following: (i) you could select any 10 recruits you wanted, but then I picked a Division 1 coaching staff at random for you, or (ii) you could pick any coaching staff you wanted, but then I picked a random assortment of 10 wrestlers (based on weights) from, say, the top 100 in the recruiting rankings.

Would anyone in their right mind pick option (ii) ever?

What if you picked option (i) and I picked Kevin Jackson as your coach?
 
What if you picked option (i) and I picked Kevin Jackson as your coach?

There's no way I wouldn't take the 10 recruits of my choice. The odds are infinitely better.

I mean, go do a random number generator 10 times and tell me what looks better to you.
 
Easily Recruiting at this point. Reason is most top P4P kids are so developed through clubs, technique videos,videos on opponents, national tourneys facing the other elite guys etc that they are more college ready as a true freshman than ever before. Its night and day from the Dan Gable dynasty.

Put it this way right now. I recruit and coach Mark Hall, Cael recruits and coaches Kaleb Young. Who wins that matchup?

Cael has it made. He is easily the most recognizable wrestling figure you can put in a living room. He has salesman skill to land #1 kids at their weight. Then he gets to hand them off to Casey Cunningham in the practice room. Odd all their champs at the moment 149-184 are around the weight Casey would practice and roll around with them at right?

Cael at ISU would still be a force but it wouldn't be the monster it is at PSU. Simply put ISU would still get the Hall and Nickel types because Cael is a national force recruiting but the overwhelming factor is in PA he also gets the Nico, Nolf, Zain Cenzos to complete an all star lineup. AT ISU he was getting the Varners but instead of Nolf he was getting guys like Mitch Mueller which didn't get him over the hump. Like I said got it made.

All that being said you have to give Cael props the even given all these elite options he is picking the right #1 ranked kid vs say a marsteller, McCauley type. Im not sure he can keep that up for much longer at that clip. His elite pull through percentage is uncanny. Chances are Berge, RBY, Manville types could be duds. We will see.
 
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Btw, what's the intel on why KJ has been so unsuccessful at ISU? Terrible recruiter? Terrible coach? Unlikable? Reeling from Bael stealing wrestlers and recruits?

It wasn't a recruiting issue, he admitted as much. He is likeable, which fits with the good recruiting. He can't blame Cael anymore, his best year was immediately after the poaching.

He, apparently, just can't coach up most weights. Surprisingly bad at it. He made them worse.
 
I agree that recruiting is key and also echo what ihawkd says about clubs. Mindset and motivation are mostly developed by 18. Recruiting the TNT way draws the most competition into the room SO THAT the rises to the top.

There are some incredibly talented kids that just need physical maturity to level the playing field. Getting into a room where spots are legitimately competitive will help the right kids excel.
 
Based on the recruiting rankings, the team race should have finished 1. PSU, 2. tOSU, 3. Iowa, 4. Okie State.

Did any of the team's underperform expectations?
That's one way to look at it. I believe that opinion doesn't factor in 8 AA for OSU vs 5 for Iowa. Not sure I would call that underperforming.
 
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Here is an article by Josh Lowe on Intermat on this year's AAs and were they were ranked coming out of HS.

http://intermatwrestle.com/articles/18008

Iowa
Gilman 10
Clark 15
Sorenson 62
Kemerer 11
Brooks 14
Average Rank 22.4

Oklahoma St.
Picinnina 26
Brock 23
Heil 17
Smith 16
Rogers 20
Crutchmer 22
Boyd 100
Weigel WC
Average Rank 32

Penn St.
Retherford 3
Nolf 7
Joseph 7
Hall 1
Nickal 5
Nevills 4
Average Rank 4.5

Ohio St.
Tomaselo 15
M. Jordan 6
B. Jordan 1
Marton 4
Moore 32
Snyder 1
Average Rank 9.83

I presume these are overall rankings out of HS, not by weight?

Who were the top ranked wrestlers in each of those years?
Obviously, based on these numbers:
Hall
Snyder
Bo Jordan

Who are the other two?
 
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I presume these are overall rankings out of HS, not by weight?

Who were the top ranked wrestlers in each of those years?
Obviously, based on these numbers:
Hall
Snyder
Bo Jordan

Who are the other two?
2012 Jason Tsirtsis
2015 Anthony Valencia
 
Here is an article by Josh Lowe on Intermat on this year's AAs and were they were ranked coming out of HS.

http://intermatwrestle.com/articles/18008

Iowa
Gilman 10
Clark 15
Sorenson 62
Kemerer 11
Brooks 14
Average Rank 22.4

Oklahoma St.
Picinnina 26
Brock 23
Heil 17
Smith 16
Rogers 20
Crutchmer 22
Boyd 100
Weigel WC
Average Rank 32

Penn St.
Retherford 3
Nolf 7
Joseph 7
Hall 1
Nickal 5
Nevills 4
Average Rank 4.5

Ohio St.
Tomaselo 15
M. Jordan 6
B. Jordan 1
Marton 4
Moore 32
Snyder 1
Average Rank 9.83

Do these stats answer the question?
 
Easily Recruiting at this point. Reason is most top P4P kids are so developed through clubs, technique videos,videos on opponents, national tourneys facing the other elite guys etc that they are more college ready as a true freshman than ever before. Its night and day from the Dan Gable dynasty...

Totally agree. ^^ The game has changed, you have to have high level firepower through effective recruiting...then you also have to add development to that to get the desired result. But if you had to pick one...the equation starts with good recruiting.
 
They are too embarrassed to mention his development.
I think it's important to note, and we see this in EVERY sport with recruiting rankings, that sometimes the evaluators miss. Jimmy was a guy IMO whose HS results were better than his talent. Don't get me wrong, very talented wrestler, but also limited physically due to lack of length and lack of natural strength. You can get away without having one of those, but you have to have the other. How many top football recruits just aren't what the evaluators think they will end up being? Same applies to wrestling.
 
I think it's important to note, and we see this in EVERY sport with recruiting rankings, that sometimes the evaluators miss. Jimmy was a guy IMO whose HS results were better than his talent. Don't get me wrong, very talented wrestler, but also limited physically due to lack of length and lack of natural strength. You can get away without having one of those, but you have to have the other. How many top football recruits just aren't what the evaluators think they will end up being? Same applies to wrestling.

Regarding Gulibon...didn't he beat Cory Clark in a post HS all star event or am I remembering that wrong? If so, I think it illustrates that "5 star" recruits don't always turn out the way one would think.

Nevertheless, you have to have many top level recruits and then realize that not all of them are going to translate into high level D1 success.
 
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Regarding Gulibon...didn't he beat Cory Clark in a post HS all star event or am I remembering that wrong? If so, I think it illustrates that "5 star" recruits don't always turn out the way one would think.

Nevertheless, you have to have many top level recruits and then realize that not all of them are going to translate into high level D1 success.

Guilbon and the Altons. Evans was a 3X AA but never won a title. However, we were getting one top ten every four years. Easier to have a Guilbon when 8 of your other guys are top ten. Less likely you'll miss on one.

Asked it another thread but it bears repeating in here: What if we had 9 Kemerers? Kemerer came to us already being very good (person and wrestler). At this point, it's how you manage the kid vs developing them depending on their character and motivation levels. For example:

Level 1-Needs micromanaged in the room and academics; Needs to be taught good habits. May have talent but lacks the physical and mental maturity to exploit

Level 2-Understands basic concepts about the sport, program and life. Is able to manage self on campus but still needs work in the room maintaining weight, conditioning etc

Level 3-Shows self discipline, works hard etc but still needs a little bit of push mentally. Has good grades outside of the room and no behavioral problems

Level 4-Needs very little guidance. Is a team leader. If left alone, can work with self and others to improve self. Performs at one of the higher levels in the room and on the mat. Now just fine tuning.

This is just crude example of evaluation criteria. Obviously, you want kids that are in the 3 & 4 range. Not every kid coming in is going to start out at 1 or 2 because their parents, prior coaches and self have already taught this part. The hard part is not treating everyone the same but recognizing that you may have some building to do with one while showing respect to the others.

Met a 3X State Champion and a D-1 kid the other night...some of you might recognize his name. Was very good in a non traditional state but then chose a high academic but smaller school. After speaking to him for five minutes, knew he was a mess. Bragged about beating this guy or that etc in high school and about how he wanted to transfer schools...he knew it all. We didn't ask...he volunteered this info to complete strangers. I vaguely remembered his name and googled it and sure enough...found out he had been arrested for various issues.

I guess the key would be to identify those kids like a Nolf, Kemerer, etc who are already at 3 and 4 to begin with...get as many as you can so you can spend the time on the 1s and 2s without it being a deficit to your program. Sometimes they bear fruit big time. One can posit that a guy like Cenzo was at a 2 when he got to PSU. He missed weight a couple of times during his RS year for whatever reason but then took a year to develop and you know the result. With year around wrestling and their talent already pretty much known, the biggest issue to early success IMO would be getting them on campus and off to a good start with the guys and academics.
 
I agree with all of your points AZchief. I believe it is a combination of both high level recruits and development. All of us have seen high level recruits who never achieve the level of success that us fans expect. We all know the Hawkeyes (and others) have had their share of high level recruits who never panned out.

Every kid is different, what motivates one may not work on another. That is what made Gable so good he knew how to find what it took to motivate each individual.
 
I agree with all of your points AZchief. I believe it is a combination of both high level recruits and development. All of us have seen high level recruits who never achieve the level of success that us fans expect. We all know the Hawkeyes (and others) have had their share of high level recruits who never panned out.

Every kid is different, what motivates one may not work on another. That is what made Gable so good he knew how to find what it took to motivate each individual.

Of course it's both, but look at Bael's recruits:

DT - 2nd as a Frosh
Ruth - 3rd as a Frosh (likely bc of injury in the QF)
Zain - 5th as a True Frosh (could have possibly been 1st with a shirt)
Nickal - 2nd as a Frosh
Nico - 2nd as a Frosh
Joseph - 1st as a Frosh
Hall - 1st as a True "Frosh"
Nolf - 2nd as a Frosh

That's not development. That's just talent.
 
I will stand up for Gullibon. I think his issue was he needed to maintain 133 because his frame and handsize, grip wasn't as consistantly good for 141 but he showed real talent flashes at times. Im not sure he got worse as much as he was kicked out of his weight. Did Jimmy outgrow it or did Cael paint the team picture 141 was his only option for the team sake. Either way I think many are too hard on the kid. In his day he was on Clarks level and he won what 3 team titles sacrificing himself for a better 133/141 combo.

In an odd way wasn't he about the same as Alex Tsirtsis was as a SR on a title team?
 
Of course it's both, but look at Bael's recruits:

DT - 2nd as a Frosh
Ruth - 3rd as a Frosh (likely bc of injury in the QF)
Zain - 5th as a True Frosh (could have possibly been 1st with a shirt)
Nickal - 2nd as a Frosh
Nico - 2nd as a Frosh
Joseph - 1st as a Frosh
Hall - 1st as a True "Frosh"
Nolf - 2nd as a Frosh

That's not development. That's just talent.
If you gave those 8 guys to KJ, what's the result their freshman year?
 
If you gave those 8 guys to KJ, what's the result their freshman year?

Not the answer you hoped for but they would still be who they are. KJ didn't make Reader or Zabriskie worse. He got them titles. Same with Gadsen. It was in them before they ever met their college coach. Believe it or not it was in Nolf before he ever met Cael. Cael even basically said that and that how he knew to recruit him.

KJs issue IMO is he was desperate to rebuild and win for most of his time there. This lead him to reach for guys who looked good on paper but mentally were guys Brands or Cael wouldn't have touched. Like Meeks for example. Mind set was never right for college success.

Likeminded guys know each other when they see it. Like how Metcalf talked about a freshman McD. Or Jaybo talked in his book about nobody in his high school practice room got it until he was a SR then he saw this McD kid who just "got it"

Many of KJs guys like meeks never had "it". It was pretty obvious to me as a huge red flag when all his dad did on this board was talk about not owing any student loans after college and for his son to be happy. That was Meeks priority from day one. He accomplished that. Not putting him down as its a smart goal but I don't really believe he ever wanted to be a college champ. It was just going to be a lucky byproduct.

Again as Nolf said, fun was getting his hand raised. Luv that kid, Nolf is so Hawkeye.
 
125:
1. Darian Cruz (Lehigh) -- No. 50 in Class of 2013
2. Ethan Lizak (Minnesota) -- No. 73 in Class of 2014
3. Thomas Gilman (Iowa) -- No. 10 in Class of 2012
4. Nick Piccininni (Oklahoma State) -- No. 26 in Class of 2015
5. Joey Dance (Virginia Tech) -- No. 8 in Class of 2013
6. Jack Mueller (Virginia) -- No. 25 in Class of 2016
7. Sean Russell (Edinboro) -- No. 54 in Class of 2014
8. Nathan Kraisser (Campbell) -- No. 42 in Class of 2012

133:
1. Cory Clark (Iowa) -- No. 15 in Class of 2012
2. Seth Gross (South Dakota State) -- No. 58 in Class of 2014
3. Nathan Tomasello (Ohio State) -- No. 15 in Class of 2013
4. Stevan Micic (Michigan) -- No. 19 in Class of 2014
5. Kaid Brock (Oklahoma State) -- No. 23 in Class of 2015
6. Eric Montoya (Nebraska) -- NR in Class of 2012
7. Zane Richards (Illinois) -- No. 21 in Class of 2012
8. Scott Parker (Lehigh) -- No. 66 in Class of 2014

141:
1. Dean Heil (Oklahoma State) -- No. 17 in Class of 2013
2. George DiCamillo (Virginia) -- No. 20 in Class of 2012
3. Kevin Jack (North Carolina State) -- WC in Class of 2014
4. Bryce Meredith (Wyoming) -- NR in Class of 2014
5. Jaydin Eierman (Missouri) -- No. 52 in Class of 2015
6. Anthony Ashnault (Rutgers) -- No. 7 in Class of 2013
7. Matthew Kolodik (Princeton) -- No. 9 in Class of 2015
8. Tommy Thorn (Minnesota) -- No. 21 in Class of 2014

149:
1. Zain Retherford (Penn State) -- No. 3 in Class of 2013
2. Lavion Mayes (Missouri) -- NR in Class of 2012
3. Brandon Sorensen (Iowa) -- No. 62 in Class of 2013
4. Micah Jordan (Ohio State) -- No. 6 in Class of 2014
5. Max Thomsen (Nothern Iowa) -- No. 14 in Class of 2015
6. Solomon Chishko (Virginia Tech) -- No. 11 in Class of 2014
7. Ken Theobold (Rutgers) -- NR in Class of 2012
8. Alex Kocer (South Dakota State) -- NR in Class of 2012

157:
1. Jason Nolf (Penn State) -- No. 7 in Class of 2014
2. Joey Lavallee (Missouri) -- No. 72 in Class of 2013
3. Michael Kemerer (Iowa) -- No. 11 in Class of 2015
4. Joseph Smith (Oklahoma State) -- No. 16 in Class of 2014
5. Tyler Berger (Nebraska) -- No. 29 in Class of 2014
6. Dylan Palacio (Cornell) -- No. 64 in Class of 2012
7. Paul Fox (Stanford) -- No. 92 in Class of 2014
8. Sal Mastriani (Virginia Tech) -- WC in Class of 2012

165:
1. Vincenzo Joseph (Penn State) -- No. 7 in Class of 2015
2. Isaiah Martinez (Illinois) -- No. 5 in Class of 2013
3. Logan Massa (Michigan) -- No. 2 in Class of 2015
4. Isaac Jordan (Wisconsin) -- No. 19 in Class of 2012
5. Chandler Rogers (Oklahoma State) -- No. 20 in Class of 2014
6. Daniel Lewis (Missouri) -- No. 34 in Class of 2014
7. Chad Walsh (Rider) -- No. 91 in Class of 2014
8. Brandon Womack (Cornell) -- WC in Class of 2014

174:
1. Mark Hall (Penn State) -- No. 1 in Class of 2016
2. Bo Jordan (Ohio State) -- No. 1 in Class of 2013
3. Zahid Valencia (Arizona State) -- No. 3 in Class of 2015
4. Myles Amine (Michigan) -- No. 40 in Class of 2015
5. Brian Realbuto (Cornell) -- No. 18 in Class of 2012
6. Zac Brunson (Illinois) -- No. 47 in Class of 2012
7. Kyle Crutchmer (Oklahoma State) -- No. 22 in Class of 2012
8. Jake Residori (SIU Edwardsville) -- NR in Class of 2012

184:
1. Bo Nickal (Penn State) -- No. 5 in Class of 2014
2. Gabe Dean (Cornell) -- WC in Class of 2012
3. T.J. Dudley (Nebraska) -- No. 17 in Class of 2012
4. Sam Brooks (Iowa) -- No. 14 in Class of 2012
5. Myles Martin (Ohio State) -- No. 4 in Class of 2015
6. Nolan Boyd (Oklahoma State) -- No. 100 in Class of 2012
7. Drew Foster (Northern Iowa) -- NR in Class of 2014
8. Nate Jackson (Indiana) -- NR in Class of 2012

197:
1. J'den Cox (Missouri) -- No. 6 in Class of 2013
2. Brett Pfarr (Minnesota) -- NR in Class of 2012
3. Kollin Moore (Ohio State) -- No. 32 in Class of 2015
4. Jared Haught (Virginia Tech) -- No. 68 in Class of 2013
5. Aaron Studebaker (Nebraska) -- NR in Class of 2012
6. Preston Weigel (Oklahoma State) -- WC in Class of 2014
7. Ryan Wolfe (Rider) -- NR in Class of 2012
8. Kevin Beazley (Old Dominion) -- WC in Class of 2012

285:
1. Kyle Snyder (Ohio State) -- No. 1 in Class of 2014
2. Connor Medbery (Wisconsin) -- No. 59 in Class of 2011
3. Tanner Hall (Arizona State) -- No. 10 in Class of 2011
4. Ty Walz (Virginia Tech) -- WC in Class of 2012
5. Nick Nevills (Penn State) -- No. 4 in Class of 2014
6. Jacob Kasper (Duke) -- NR in Class of 2013
7. Michael Kroelles (Minnesota) -- No. 41 in Class of 2012
8. Denzel DeJournette (Appalachian State) -- NR in Class of 2012

All-Americans by high school graduating class:
2011 = 2
2012 = 29
2013 = 13
2014 = 22
2015 = 12
2016 = 2

All-Americans by final grade rank:
Top 10 = 19 (of the 80 total)
Top 20 = 33
Top 30 = 40
Top 50 = 47
Top 100 = 60
 
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125:
1. Darian Cruz (Lehigh) -- No. 50 in Class of 2013
2. Ethan Lizak (Minnesota) -- No. 73 in Class of 2014
3. Thomas Gilman (Iowa) -- No. 10 in Class of 2012
4. Nick Piccininni (Oklahoma State) -- No. 26 in Class of 2015
5. Joey Dance (Virginia Tech) -- No. 8 in Class of 2013
6. Jack Mueller (Virginia) -- No. 25 in Class of 2016
7. Sean Russell (Edinboro) -- No. 54 in Class of 2014
8. Nathan Kraisser (Campbell) -- No. 42 in Class of 2012

133:
1. Cory Clark (Iowa) -- No. 15 in Class of 2012
2. Seth Gross (South Dakota State) -- No. 58 in Class of 2014
3. Nathan Tomasello (Ohio State) -- No. 15 in Class of 2013
4. Stevan Micic (Michigan) -- No. 19 in Class of 2014
5. Kaid Brock (Oklahoma State) -- No. 23 in Class of 2015
6. Eric Montoya (Nebraska) -- NR in Class of 2012
7. Zane Richards (Illinois) -- No. 21 in Class of 2012
8. Scott Parker (Lehigh) -- No. 66 in Class of 2014

141:
1. Dean Heil (Oklahoma State) -- No. 17 in Class of 2013
2. George DiCamillo (Virginia) -- No. 20 in Class of 2012
3. Kevin Jack (North Carolina State) -- WC in Class of 2014
4. Bryce Meredith (Wyoming) -- NR in Class of 2014
5. Jaydin Eierman (Missouri) -- No. 52 in Class of 2015
6. Anthony Ashnault (Rutgers) -- No. 7 in Class of 2013
7. Matthew Kolodik (Princeton) -- No. 9 in Class of 2015
8. Tommy Thorn (Minnesota) -- No. 21 in Class of 2014

149:
1. Zain Retherford (Penn State) -- No. 3 in Class of 2013
2. Lavion Mayes (Missouri) -- NR in Class of 2012
3. Brandon Sorensen (Iowa) -- No. 62 in Class of 2013
4. Micah Jordan (Ohio State) -- No. 6 in Class of 2014
5. Max Thomsen (Nothern Iowa) -- No. 14 in Class of 2015
6. Solomon Chishko (Virginia Tech) -- No. 11 in Class of 2014
7. Ken Theobold (Rutgers) -- NR in Class of 2012
8. Alex Kocer (South Dakota State) -- NR in Class of 2012

157:
1. Jason Nolf (Penn State) -- No. 7 in Class of 2014
2. Joey Lavallee (Missouri) -- No. 72 in Class of 2013
3. Michael Kemerer (Iowa) -- No. 11 in Class of 2015
4. Joseph Smith (Oklahoma State) -- No. 16 in Class of 2014
5. Tyler Berger (Nebraska) -- No. 29 in Class of 2014
6. Dylan Palacio (Cornell) -- No. 64 in Class of 2012
7. Paul Fox (Stanford) -- No. 92 in Class of 2014
8. Sal Mastriani (Virginia Tech) -- WC in Class of 2012

165:
1. Vincenzo Joseph (Penn State) -- No. 7 in Class of 2015
2. Isaiah Martinez (Illinois) -- No. 5 in Class of 2013
3. Logan Massa (Michigan) -- No. 2 in Class of 2015
4. Isaac Jordan (Wisconsin) -- No. 19 in Class of 2012
5. Chandler Rogers (Oklahoma State) -- No. 20 in Class of 2014
6. Daniel Lewis (Missouri) -- No. 34 in Class of 2014
7. Chad Walsh (Rider) -- No. 91 in Class of 2014
8. Brandon Womack (Cornell) -- WC in Class of 2014

174:
1. Mark Hall (Penn State) -- No. 1 in Class of 2016
2. Bo Jordan (Ohio State) -- No. 1 in Class of 2013
3. Zahid Valencia (Arizona State) -- No. 3 in Class of 2015
4. Myles Amine (Michigan) -- No. 40 in Class of 2015
5. Brian Realbuto (Cornell) -- No. 18 in Class of 2012
6. Zac Brunson (Illinois) -- No. 47 in Class of 2012
7. Kyle Crutchmer (Oklahoma State) -- No. 22 in Class of 2012
8. Jake Residori (SIU Edwardsville) -- NR in Class of 2012

184:
1. Bo Nickal (Penn State) -- No. 5 in Class of 2014
2. Gabe Dean (Cornell) -- WC in Class of 2012
3. T.J. Dudley (Nebraska) -- No. 17 in Class of 2012
4. Sam Brooks (Iowa) -- No. 14 in Class of 2012
5. Myles Martin (Ohio State) -- No. 4 in Class of 2015
6. Nolan Boyd (Oklahoma State) -- No. 100 in Class of 2012
7. Drew Foster (Northern Iowa) -- NR in Class of 2014
8. Nate Jackson (Indiana) -- NR in Class of 2012

197:
1. J'den Cox (Missouri) -- No. 6 in Class of 2013
2. Brett Pfarr (Minnesota) -- NR in Class of 2012
3. Kollin Moore (Ohio State) -- No. 32 in Class of 2015
4. Jared Haught (Virginia Tech) -- No. 68 in Class of 2013
5. Aaron Studebaker (Nebraska) -- NR in Class of 2012
6. Preston Weigel (Oklahoma State) -- WC in Class of 2014
7. Ryan Wolfe (Rider) -- NR in Class of 2012
8. Kevin Beazley (Old Dominion) -- WC in Class of 2012

285:
1. Kyle Snyder (Ohio State) -- No. 1 in Class of 2014
2. Connor Medbery (Wisconsin) -- No. 59 in Class of 2011
3. Tanner Hall (Arizona State) -- No. 10 in Class of 2011
4. Ty Walz (Virginia Tech) -- WC in Class of 2012
5. Nick Nevills (Penn State) -- No. 4 in Class of 2014
6. Jacob Kasper (Duke) -- NR in Class of 2013
7. Michael Kroelles (Minnesota) -- No. 41 in Class of 2012
8. Denzel DeJournette (Appalachian State) -- NR in Class of 2012

All-Americans by high school graduating class:
2011 = 2
2012 = 29
2013 = 13
2014 = 22
2015 = 12
2016 = 2

All-Americans by final grade rank:
Top 10 = 19 (of the 80 total)
Top 20 = 33
Top 30 = 40
Top 50 = 47
Top 100 = 60

Nice job, but where are you getting these rankings? I've never seen Gilman at #10.
 
Not the answer you hoped for but they would still be who they are. KJ didn't make Reader or Zabriskie worse. He got them titles. Same with Gadsen. It was in them before they ever met their college coach. Believe it or not it was in Nolf before he ever met Cael. Cael even basically said that and that how he knew to recruit him.

KJs issue IMO is he was desperate to rebuild and win for most of his time there. This lead him to reach for guys who looked good on paper but mentally were guys Brands or Cael wouldn't have touched. Like Meeks for example. Mind set was never right for college success.

Likeminded guys know each other when they see it. Like how Metcalf talked about a freshman McD. Or Jaybo talked in his book about nobody in his high school practice room got it until he was a SR then he saw this McD kid who just "got it"

Many of KJs guys like meeks never had "it". It was pretty obvious to me as a huge red flag when all his dad did on this board was talk about not owing any student loans after college and for his son to be happy. That was Meeks priority from day one. He accomplished that. Not putting him down as its a smart goal but I don't really believe he ever wanted to be a college champ. It was just going to be a lucky byproduct.

Again as Nolf said, fun was getting his hand raised. Luv that kid, Nolf is so Hawkeye.
I can agree to a point. Those 8 guys are wired to win. However, the partners from the RTC wouldn't be the same, nor would the coaches in the room nor the emphasis on S&C that Cael may put into his program. I get what you are saying, but the raw material still needs a catalyst most of the time.

Oh, and the fun wouldn't be the same. ;)
 
If you gave those 8 guys to KJ, what's the result their freshman year?

C'mon man...when you have true frosh come in and win it or AA, they were pretty damn good to start. That's why a Mark Hall or Spencer Lee is so coveted. You all are starting on third base pretending you hit a triple.

In basketball terms, your starters are almost all McDonald's All Americans. PSU is great at recruiting...the best in the country. Instead of Alabama football, I compare it to Kentucky basketball...if Kentucky was the best high school state in the country for basketball. Doesn't matter to them but it sure would make the traveling easier for Caliperi if he were an hour away from some of the best recruits in the country...plus, easier to know about a kid's reputation being close to where he eats and shits.
 
I think it's important to note, and we see this in EVERY sport with recruiting rankings, that sometimes the evaluators miss. Jimmy was a guy IMO whose HS results were better than his talent. Don't get me wrong, very talented wrestler, but also limited physically due to lack of length and lack of natural strength. You can get away without having one of those, but you have to have the other. How many top football recruits just aren't what the evaluators think they will end up being? Same applies to wrestling.

with jimmy he had to jump up to 41 to make room for conaway. i felt he was undersized, lacked strength and his confidence took a hit after a few losses. flo didn't do him any favors with the pre-season ranking as you guys well know. imo he should of stayed at 33.
 
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I can agree to a point. Those 8 guys are wired to win. However, the partners from the RTC wouldn't be the same, nor would the coaches in the room nor the emphasis on S&C that Cael may put into his program. I get what you are saying, but the raw material still needs a catalyst most of the time.

Oh, and the fun wouldn't be the same. ;)

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Your partner logic is flawed because you put those 8 guys in the Cyclone room and they still have each other and the Paulsons to get each other better.

Another logic is Cenzo has always been a step better than Kem dawg in high school. So if Kem dawg was ranked #2 all year and got 3rd by logic then Cenzo is still a step better. What's a step better than 2? I guess Kem Dawg is lucky he even did what he did his freshman season without being in the privileged Penn State room facing all those gladiators. Maybe its just me but both Cenzo and Kem were gonna be just fine regardless of the college as long as there is a decent level of support. Id say at some point a Thank you card to Young guns is in order.

Reminds of my favorite line from Teen Wolf. "If our kids had sneakers like theirs, there is no telling how good they could be.
 
Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Your partner logic is flawed because you put those 8 guys in the Cyclone room and they still have each other and the Paulsons to get each other better.

Another logic is Cenzo has always been a step better than Kem dawg in high school. So if Kem dawg was ranked #2 all year and got 3rd by logic then Cenzo is still a step better. What's a step better than 2? I guess Kem Dawg is lucky he even did what he did his freshman season without being in the privileged Penn State room facing all those gladiators. Maybe its just me but both Cenzo and Kem were gonna be just fine regardless of the college as long as there is a decent level of support. Id say at some point a Thank you card to Young guns is in order.

Reminds of my favorite line from Teen Wolf. "If our kids had sneakers like theirs, there is no telling how good they could be.
Explain Earl Hall and LeLand witherspoon...
 
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