When Kris Murray plays at least 17 minutes, he averages 14.7 ppg

Rambler Hawk

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It's time.

Pretty amazing stats here.

Question for anyone - I missed the PSU game, but it looks like Kris had a solid game while logging 25 minutes. Seeing J-bo had 35 minutes, it looks like Fran still can’t figure out who his BEST players are. It sounds like cmac had a nice (albeit rare) good game, but was his injury the reason Kris’ minutes spiked up? Tia
 

unoHawkeye

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His effort on offense has not been questioned by anyone. The problem is there are two sides of the court.
Pat had a big time swat in overtime, a couple big time defensive rebounds in overtime and led the team in rebounds overall. He continues to be one of the least of our problems
 

jonesy5960

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Question for anyone - I missed the PSU game, but it looks like Kris had a solid game while logging 25 minutes. Seeing J-bo had 35 minutes, it looks like Fran still can’t figure out who his BEST players are. It sounds like cmac had a nice (albeit rare) good game, but was his injury the reason Kris’ minutes spiked up? Tia
No. I think Kris' minutes spiked because Keegan was out with 2 fouls.
 
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Franisdaman

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Question for anyone - I missed the PSU game, but it looks like Kris had a solid game while logging 25 minutes. Seeing J-bo had 35 minutes, it looks like Fran still can’t figure out who his BEST players are. It sounds like cmac had a nice (albeit rare) good game, but was his injury the reason Kris’ minutes spiked up? Tia

Kris unfortunately missed a couple FTs and had 3 of Iowa's 8 turnovers in 26 minutes

Ulis played 28 minutes and was 0-7 from the field (he just can't seem to make a jump shot). Joe only played 19 minutes. Not sure why. Joe was 0-4 from the field, by the way, so trying to find the "best" players is not exactly easy when everyone is missing from outside.
 
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KcTo

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Yet that poster and @KcTo are trying to tell us that PMac is soft.
Blocks per 40 minutes in Conference games only

Ogundele 3.5
keegan 2.6
kris. 2.1
Rebraca 1.0
Sandfort 0.7
PMac 0.6

PMac is at the very bottom of the bigs in rim protection in conference games…

what do you make of this data and evidence as it relates to the claim that PMac is not the poorest of all IOWA bigs?
 
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unoHawkeye

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Blocks per 40 minutes in Conference games only

Ogundele 3.5
keegan 2.6
kris. 2.1
Rebraca 1.0
Sandfort 0.7
PMac 0.6

PMac is at the very bottom of the bigs in rim protection in conference games…

whats do you make of this data and evidence as it relates to the claim that PMac is not the poorest of all IOWA bigs?
That PMac isn’t a big?
 
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Lighting Hawk

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Question for anyone - I missed the PSU game, but it looks like Kris had a solid game while logging 25 minutes. Seeing J-bo had 35 minutes, it looks like Fran still can’t figure out who his BEST players are. It sounds like cmac had a nice (albeit rare) good game, but was his injury the reason Kris’ minutes spiked up? Tia

25 minutes and the game went into double OT.
 
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KcTo

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That PMac isn’t a big?
You are somewhat correct, PMac rebounds like a small not a BIG

rebounds/40 min Conference
Keegan 13.3
Rebraca 13.0
Ogundle 11.3
Kris 11.0

pMac. 7.7. narrowly best rebounder of the guards, far and away worst rebounders of Bigs
Ulis. 7.3
cMac 7.2
JoeT 5.9
Perk 5.8

the data shows pMac rebounds like a guard
explain why is is not the softest of all the bigs?
 

unoHawkeye

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You are somewhat correct, PMac rebounds like a small not a BIG

rebounds/40 min Conference
Keegan 13.3
Rebraca 13.0
Ogundle 11.3
Kris 11.0

pMac. 7.7. narrowly best rebounder of the guards, far and away worst rebounders of Bigs
Ulis. 7.3
cMac 7.2
JoeT 5.9
Perk 5.8

the data shows pMac rebounds like a guard
explain why is is not the softest of all the bigs?
Because Patrick is a 3, which is a wing position, not a big. Same with Sandfort and CM. None of them are bigs. Ogundele, Rebraca, and Mulvey are the only people on the roster considered big men
 
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Bulldogs1974

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Yet that poster and @KcTo are trying to tell us that PMac is soft.
he is. Many of his rebounds are rebounds that bounce to him. They are not ones he went and got.
HE IS A LAZY DEFENDER. That is as much his coaches fault as his own. He is a poster child for soft on defense. I like his offensive game and believe his minutes are fine but let's not overlook the obvious.
 
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KcTo

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Because Patrick is a 3, which is a wing position, not a big. Same with Sandfort and CM. None of them are bigs. Ogundele, Rebraca, and Mulvey are the only people on the roster considered big men
agree, with except that often times Fran goes with perk, or sandfort at #3 with PMac and a Murray at the #4-5 making PMac a big…

so Pmac is functionally deployed as a Big…
 

David1979

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Why him and Keegan aren’t both averaging 35 minutes a game at this point I’ll never understand.
This has always annoyed me about Fran. You don't have to give every one on the team minutes and you need to play your best players 33-35 minutes per game. Those minutes that they are off the floor can cost you the game. Just like his stupid two foul rule.
Look at Davis at Wisconsin, Agbaji at KU etc they are all over 33 minutes a game.
 

unoHawkeye

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agree, with except that often times Fran goes with perk, or sandfort at #3 with PMac and a Murray at the #4-5 making PMac a big…

so Pmac is functionally deployed as a Big…
Perkins almost never plays the three - only Sandfort - and Patrick is rarely in as a 4. Just because Fran plays guys out of position doesn’t make them “bigs.” Keegan and Kris aren’t bigs either. They’re wings being forced into roles traditionally played by bigs. Luckily for us, they do quite well
 
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RocknRollface

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Theres no reason Patrick shouldn't be able to rebound similarly to the way Wieskamp did.

They're playing the same spot and Joe wasn't some physical guy. And Patrick is 6'9.

Difference is Joe went after the ball and Patrick doesn't very often.
 

unoHawkeye

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Theres no reason Patrick shouldn't be able to rebound similarly to the way Wieskamp did.

They're playing the same spot and Joe wasn't some physical guy. And Patrick is 6'9.

Difference is Joe went after the ball and Patrick doesn't very often.
Except that Patrick continues to get better and better at rebounding. He’s a redshirt sophomore, averaged 2.7 rebounds his RSFr season, has averaged 3.5 this season, has averaged 3.9 in conference play, and most recently led the team in rebounds against Penn State. I think it’s evident to anybody watching that he has a lot of room to improve on both ends of the floor. However, it’s also evident to anybody watching that he’s pretty consistently been the third best player on this team and is improving more quickly than anybody else on the team… yet he still continues to catch as much or more unwarranted flak than any other player. If Fran had somebody down low who could grab rebounds instead of relying on a bunch of wings, then this wouldn’t even be a conversation
 
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Bulldogs1974

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Except that Patrick continues to get better and better at rebounding. He’s a redshirt sophomore, averaged 2.7 rebounds his RSFr season, has averaged 3.5 this season, has averaged 3.9 in conference play, and most recently led the team in rebounds against Penn State. I think it’s evident to anybody watching that he has a lot of room to improve on both ends of the floor. However, it’s also evident to anybody watching that he’s pretty consistently been the third best player on this team and is improving more quickly than anybody else on the team… yet he still continues to catch as much or more unwarranted flak than any other player. If Fran had somebody down low who could grab rebounds instead of relying on a bunch of wings, then this wouldn’t even be a conversation
If by third best player you mean looking at offense only, maybe. AS a complete, both ends of the court player, no.
Every good rebounding team relies on the wings to help. DEFENSE is a team effort. When has fran had a reggie evans type rebounder. Because that's what you think every team has with that type of comment.
The "flack" pmac gets is 90% defense and hustle. His offensive criticisms are his shooting form and his propensity to be off balance or off one foot while shooting.
ALL WARRANTED....
 

jonesy5960

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Theres no reason Patrick shouldn't be able to rebound similarly to the way Wieskamp did.

They're playing the same spot and Joe wasn't some physical guy. And Patrick is 6'9.

Difference is Joe went after the ball and Patrick doesn't very often.
Yeah. They play completely different styles of basketball. You could even make an argument that Patrick has more raw athletic ability than Joe does aside from the shooting of course. If he wanted to he could easily be pulling down 6-7 boards per game. You just don't see Patrick crashing the boards in order to get them. I really think he's being coached to prioritize getting out on the break over securing the defensive rebound. If you watch him he's much more likely to be leaking out than flying in.
 

unoHawkeye

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If by third best player you mean looking at offense only, maybe. AS a complete, both ends of the court player, no.
Every good rebounding team relies on the wings to help. DEFENSE is a team effort. When has fran had a reggie evans type rebounder. Because that's what you think every team has with that type of comment.
The "flack" pmac gets is 90% defense and hustle. His offensive criticisms are his shooting form and his propensity to be off balance or off one foot while shooting.
ALL WARRANTED....
The only person that you could legitimately make the argument is a better more complete player than Patrick after the Murray’s is Toussaint

And I actually laughed out loud at the Evans comment. I never made any such statement or implication. Our “big man” is 6’9, if that, not a wide body, and has average athleticism. We have guys who could give all the effort in the world that can still be moved by bigger, wider players. Nunge would have been huge in this regard (literally)

Again, PM is a redshirt sophomore with past extenuating health circumstances that have cut into his experience and weight, and we have posters comparing him to last-year-at-Iowa Joe Wieskamp. He makes mistakes on both ends of the floor but has improved his shot quality and rebounding drastically even over the course of this year. His game is excessively being critiqued because he’s the coach’s son playing alongside the Murray’s, who are the best wing talents since Uthoff and White (and they’re probably set to become even more complete players). The reality is that he’s playing quite well for a redshirt sophomore

Every player is open to criticism, but as I’ve said before, Pat is one of the least of our concerns and constantly improving at both ends of the floor.
 

jonesy5960

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Except that Patrick continues to get better and better at rebounding. He’s a redshirt sophomore, averaged 2.7 rebounds his RSFr season, has averaged 3.5 this season, has averaged 3.9 in conference play, and most recently led the team in rebounds against Penn State. I think it’s evident to anybody watching that he has a lot of room to improve on both ends of the floor. However, it’s also evident to anybody watching that he’s pretty consistently been the third best player on this team and is improving more quickly than anybody else on the team… yet he still continues to catch as much or more unwarranted flak than any other player. If Fran had somebody down low who could grab rebounds instead of relying on a bunch of wings, then this wouldn’t even be a conversation
He's not getting better. These statistics are only relevant in light of the minutes he's played. He's not rebounding better. He's just playing more minutes. His rebounding numbers are actually much worse this year than last. He averaged 7.3 per 40 minutes played last year. This year he's averaging 5.5 per 40 minutes which is about the same as Ulis. In conference it's pretty much the same at 5.6. You're trying to put lipstick on a pig.
 
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unoHawkeye

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He's not getting better. These statistics are only relevant in light of the minutes he's played. He's not rebounding better. He's just playing more minutes. His rebounding numbers are actually much worse this year than last. He averaged 7.3 per 40 minutes played last year. This year he's averaging 5.5 per 40 minutes which is about the same as Ulis. In conference it's pretty much the same at 5.6. You're trying to put lipstick on a pig.
Context is everything. Pat, the Murray’s, and Rebraca are being asked to replace a 20.6 rebounds per game void that Garza, Nunge, and Wieskamp (who was a fantastic rebounding wing) left, on top of their production from last year.

Patrick is now playing against other teams’ starters whereas he came off the bench last year, and teams don’t have to put a body on Garza or Wieskamp anymore. It isn’t “putting lipstick on a pig,” it’s understanding how roster changes and role changes have impacted the ability to perform

As you yourself acknowledged in a previous post, crashing the boards isn’t Pat’s game. So if you’re (you meaning anybody) angry at Pat for not grabbing enough rebounds, then you should actually be angry at Fran for building a roster where Patrick is required to do something that he isn’t good at. Good coaches, managers, etc. capitalize on their teams’ strengths and hide their weaknesses. Fran has struggled to do that this season
 

jonesy5960

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Context is everything. Pat, the Murray’s, and Rebraca are being asked to replace a 20.6 rebounds per game void that Garza, Nunge, and Wieskamp (who was a fantastic rebounding wing) left, on top of their production from last year.

Patrick is now playing against other teams’ starters whereas he came off the bench last year, and teams don’t have to put a body on Garza or Wieskamp anymore. It isn’t “putting lipstick on a pig,” it’s understanding how roster changes and role changes have impacted the ability to perform

As you yourself acknowledged in a previous post, crashing the boards isn’t Pat’s game. So if you’re (you meaning anybody) angry at Pat for not grabbing enough rebounds, then you should actually be angry at Fran for building a roster where Patrick is required to do something that he isn’t good at
Who's angry? I don't get angry. I just state facts and correct others who make demonstrably false statements. You used statistics to validate your claim that Patrick's rebounding numbers are improving. That was incorrect when viewed in light of the minutes he's playing. They are actually much worse than last year.

I'm also not blaming Patrick for this. If you go through my posts I never BLAME players for pretty much anything. I don't know what's behind Patrick not rebounding. It's obvious to everyone watching that he lacks physicality in his game. It's a problem because we need frontline players to be rim protectors and rebound and he's not doing it with any consistency whatsoever. Fran gives Patrick every accommodation possible with all those minutes at the 3. I see no reason why we shouldn't be getting similar rebounding numbers to last year out of that position and that is Patrick's natural position. It's also Kris's natural position who is being forced to play out of position at the 5. That's on Fran.
 
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unoHawkeye

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Who's angry? I don't get angry. I just state facts and correct others who make demonstrably false statements. You used statistics to validate your claim that Patrick's rebounding numbers are improving. That was incorrect when viewed in light of the minutes he's playing. They are actually much worse than last year.

I'm also not blaming Patrick for this. If you go through my posts I never BLAME players for pretty much anything. I don't know what's behind Patrick not rebounding. It's obvious to everyone watching that he lacks physicality in his game. It's a problem because we need frontline players to be rim protectors and rebound and he's not doing it with any consistency whatsoever. Fran gives Patrick every accommodation possible with all those minutes at the 3. I see no reason why we shouldn't be getting similar rebounding numbers to last year out of that position and that is Patrick's natural position. It's also Kris's natural position who is being forced to play out of position at the 5. That's on Fran.
… which is why I put “you meaning anybody” in parentheses. I wasn’t talking about you, specifically. There are plenty of people who are upset because Patrick isn’t providing the rebounding production that they expect. The sad reality for those folks is that Patrick averaging two more rebounds per game to place himself amongst his positional peers in the Big Ten isn’t the difference between Iowa losing and winning games. Hell, he got 7 boards in the Penn State game… didn’t matter. What about the Wisconsin game? 7 boards for Pat. Didn’t matter. Iowa State game? Only got four boards, but the entire team got their lunch money taken that game so I suspect that his rebounding wasn’t a major factor. Purdue, game 1? Tied for the lead on the team with 5 boards. Purdue game 2? Four boards - again, two more makes no difference in that game.

There is one game that you can point to and say that a better rebounding effort by McCaffery could have influenced the outcome, and that’s the Illinois game, where he finished with one and we lost by four. Then again, we got outrebounded by nearly 30 so maybe somebody else could have grabbed an extra board or two as well

Point being, yes, Patrick could be better on the glass. Yes, he could give up fewer open looks on defense. However, his play is not the difference between Iowa winning and losing games. The difference between Iowa winning and losing games is crappy offensive guard play and crappy starting shooting guard averaging 25 minutes per game defensive play. Inconsistent three point shooting and a lack of wide bodies down low to help collect boards, which doesn’t fall squarely on the back of Patrick, is also a factor. Given his play on the other end, which has been good, people who want to whine about him just want to whine
 
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KcTo

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Perkins almost never plays the three - only Sandfort - and Patrick is rarely in as a 4. Just because Fran plays guys out of position doesn’t make them “bigs.” Keegan and Kris aren’t bigs either. They’re wings being forced into roles traditionally played by bigs. Luckily for us, they do quite well
OK, OK, not wanting to argue definitions.
when Fran goes small, and he does often , PMac is pressed into the #4 role and Perk into the #3
 

Fan In Black

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remember when Bobby Knight told Portland to draft Jordan and Portland said "we need a center" and Bob responded " play him at center" ?

Play him somewhere please.
 

jonesy5960

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… which is why I put “you meaning anybody” in parentheses. I wasn’t talking about you, specifically. There are plenty of people who are upset because Patrick isn’t providing the rebounding production that they expect. The sad reality for those folks is that Patrick averaging two more rebounds per game to place himself amongst his positional peers in the Big Ten isn’t the difference between Iowa losing and winning games. Hell, he got 7 boards in the Penn State game… didn’t matter. What about the Wisconsin game? 7 boards for Pat. Didn’t matter. Iowa State game? Only got four boards, but the entire team got their lunch money taken that game so I suspect that his rebounding wasn’t a major factor. Purdue, game 1? Tied for the lead on the team with 5 boards. Purdue game 2? Four boards - again, two more makes no difference in that game.

There is one game that you can point to and say that a better rebounding effort by McCaffery could have influenced the outcome, and that’s the Illinois game, where he finished with one and we lost by four. Then again, we got outrebounded by nearly 30 so maybe somebody else could have grabbed an extra board or two as well

Point being, yes, Patrick could be better on the glass. Yes, he could give up fewer open looks on defense. However, his play is not the difference between Iowa winning and losing games. The difference between Iowa winning and losing games is crappy offensive guard play and crappy starting shooting guard averaging 25 minutes per game defensive play. Inconsistent three point shooting and a lack of wide bodies down low to help collect boards, which doesn’t fall squarely on the back of Patrick, is also a factor. Given his play on the other end, which has been good, people who want to whine about him just want to whine
Honestly if I was in charge I'd try putting Pmac at the 2 and inserting Kris at the starting 3 right now. Based upon where each player can be most effective that's a better fit right now.
 
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unoHawkeye

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Honestly if I was in charge I'd try putting Pmac at the 2 and inserting Kris at the starting 3 right now. Based upon where each player can be most effective that's a better fit right now.
If I were in charge there would be a massive youth movement which would entail Sandfort and Mulvey logging 15+ minutes per game, Perkins starting at the two, Toussaint averaging 30 minutes per game, Ulis playing the remainder of the one and two minutes, the Murray’s hitting 35 minutes per game, Patrick playing 30 minutes per game, and Rebraca playing situationally based on the big man matchup

Good thing I’m not in charge, I guess
 

jonesy5960

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If I were in charge there would be a massive youth movement which would entail Sandfort and Mulvey logging 15+ minutes per game, Perkins starting at the two, Toussaint averaging 30 minutes per game, Ulis playing the remainder of the one and two minutes, the Murray’s hitting 35 minutes per game, Patrick playing 30 minutes per game, and Rebraca playing situationally based on the big man matchup

Good thing I’m not in charge, I guess
Yeah. You're talking crazy now.
 

Mohawkeye

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remember when Bobby Knight told Portland to draft Jordan and Portland said "we need a center" and Bob responded " play him at center" ?

Play him somewhere please.
That's a great quote, I'd never heard that.

Honest question for Jonesy, what's the difference between the 2 and 3 in Fran's system? I don't really think there is much, if any.
 
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RocknRollface

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Honestly if I was in charge I'd try putting Pmac at the 2 and inserting Kris at the starting 3 right now. Based upon where each player can be most effective that's a better fit right now.
Couldn't possibly be worse than what Jbo brings to the table.

Im not sure Pat would be as effective offensively against smaller quicker players but the rebounding would improve and the overall production would improve by virtue of Kris getting more minutes.
 
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RocknRollface

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Except that Patrick continues to get better and better at rebounding. He’s a redshirt sophomore, averaged 2.7 rebounds his RSFr season, has averaged 3.5 this season, has averaged 3.9 in conference play, and most recently led the team in rebounds against Penn State. I think it’s evident to anybody watching that he has a lot of room to improve on both ends of the floor. However, it’s also evident to anybody watching that he’s pretty consistently been the third best player on this team and is improving more quickly than anybody else on the team… yet he still continues to catch as much or more unwarranted flak than any other player. If Fran had somebody down low who could grab rebounds instead of relying on a bunch of wings, then this wouldn’t even be a conversation
My point was people make excuses because hes skinny but Joe Weiskamp was also skinny.

The main difference is Joe went after the ball more agressivly.

Im not saying Pat shouldn't play. I think he should definitely be a starter.

I just want to see more effort to go after rebounds.
 

Franisdaman

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The only person that you could legitimately make the argument is a better more complete player than Patrick after the Murray’s is Toussaint

And I actually laughed out loud at the Evans comment. I never made any such statement or implication. Our “big man” is 6’9, if that, not a wide body, and has average athleticism. We have guys who could give all the effort in the world that can still be moved by bigger, wider players. Nunge would have been huge in this regard (literally)

Again, PM is a redshirt sophomore with past extenuating health circumstances that have cut into his experience and weight, and we have posters comparing him to last-year-at-Iowa Joe Wieskamp. He makes mistakes on both ends of the floor but has improved his shot quality and rebounding drastically even over the course of this year. His game is excessively being critiqued because he’s the coach’s son playing alongside the Murray’s, who are the best wing talents since Uthoff and White (and they’re probably set to become even more complete players). The reality is that he’s playing quite well for a redshirt sophomore

Every player is open to criticism, but as I’ve said before, Pat is one of the least of our concerns and constantly improving at both ends of the floor.

thank you for being objective
 

jonesy5960

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Yeah. You're talking crazy now.
Really the only thing I'd change is Patrick playing 30. I've reached the conclusion that his conditioning plays a factor in the way that he plays and I believe that it's purposeful. Either Patrick has it in his head that he has to pace himself and/or Fran has directed him to do so. If I'm Fran I'm telling Patrick that he's not going to get 30 anymore. He's going to max him out at 20-25 and when he's in there he's going to use his length and athleticism to go as hard as he can while he's in there. Of course, I'm not Fran and Patrick's not my son.
 

jonesy5960

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That's a great quote, I'd never heard that.

Honest question for Jonesy, what's the difference between the 2 and 3 in Fran's system? I don't really think there is much, if any.
There isn't in my opinion but there are differences. They are both scorers, but you obviously still expect your 3 to crash the boards and collect more rebounds than your 2. Your 3 is going to have a stronger inside game and be better able to defend against a bigger opponent. The 2 is going to be less likely to operate inside and more likely to leak out on fast break opportunities. Pmac doesn't really play like a 3 today. Kris does.
 
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jonesy5960

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Couldn't possibly be worse than what Jbo brings to the table.

Im not sure Pat would be as effective offensively against smaller quicker players but the rebounding would improve and the overall production would improve by virtue of Kris getting more minutes.
He'd be better able to shoot over them which is what he likes to do anyway. He might even collect more rebounds than he does today given the height disparity.
 

RocknRollface

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He'd be better able to shoot over them which is what he likes to do anyway. He might even collect more rebounds than he does today given the height disparity.
He would probably be less effective handling the ball against a shorter quicker defender.

Theres also ways he could take advantage of the height differential too as you said.

Normally I'd be concerned about his defense against faster players but considering who he'd be replacing it would actually be an upgrade at two positions.

You could probably have Kris defend whoever the quicker player was anyway, although with that lineup you'd hope to see everything getting switched anyway.
 
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jonesy5960

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He would probably be less effective handling the ball against a shorter quicker defender.

Theres also ways he could take advantage of the height differential too as you said.

Normally I'd be concerned about his defense against faster players but considering who he'd be replacing it would actually be an upgrade at two positions.

You could probably have Kris defend whoever the quicker player was anyway, although with that lineup you'd hope to see everything getting switched anyway.
I'm confident that Pmac "could" be a better more aggressive defender if he's told he needs to play harder over fewer minutes. If he starts getting abused at the glass by the opponent's 2 guard then he has to sit for the rest of the game. :) I think that of all the lineups this one provides the most athletic and balanced option in terms of offense, defense and rebounding. That likely means it has almost no chance of happening. 😃
 

KcTo

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He would probably be less effective handling the ball against a shorter quicker defender.

Theres also ways he could take advantage of the height differential too as you said.

Normally I'd be concerned about his defense against faster players but considering who he'd be replacing it would actually be an upgrade at two positions.

You could probably have Kris defend whoever the quicker player was anyway, although with that lineup you'd hope to see everything getting switched anyway.
I think Kris or Keegan have greater #2 skills than PMac, they both have ‘blow by’ ability to take it from the perimeter to the glass in 1-2 dribbles hand (we’ve seen this multiple times), whereas PMac dribbles more side to side, then behind his back, then back to rim, much more of a #4 balls skills guy…