Will the great Relations expert BHO ever get blamed for the mess in the Mideast

[JRHawk2003]

The real mess was caused by the colonial era. The borders of those countries are vestiges of the colonial era and the Brits withdrawing post WWII. These countries have no history of civil society.The borders are totally arbitrary.

Presidents keep thinking they can solve it....not so much.

Bush Jr's Iraq mistake was probably the worst though, but Obama deserves blame for Syria and Libya. What was he thinking? Stop listening to Ivy League idealists who think civil societies can be built in like 6 months. Its every bit as bad as the Ivy League types who made the Domino Theory and led to the Vietnam disaster.

 

[HawktimusPrime]

Oh you want to speak for gay men now? Carry on. Don't let me get in your way. Enunciate.

Sounds like I need to, is common sense muzzled in the gay community these days?

 

[naturalmwa]

This would mean something if evidence favored your argument.

That sounds like something I'd say. You're doing a good job so far.

 

[naturalmwa]

Sounds like I need to, is common sense muzzled in the gay community these days?

Muzzles, memories, springtime.

 

[DogBoyRy]

The real mess was caused by the colonial era. The borders of those countries are vestiges of the colonial era and the Brits withdrawing post WWII. These countries have no history of civil society.The borders are totally arbitrary.

Presidents keep thinking they can solve it....not so much.

Bush Jr's Iraq mistake was probably the worst though, but Obama deserves blame for Syria and Libya. What was he thinking? Stop listening to Ivy League idealists who think civil societies can be built in like 6 months. Its every bit as bad as the Ivy League types who made the Domino Theory and led to the Vietnam disaster.

JR - for the first time I think you're close to being on to something except Jr's Iraq being the worst..

 

[DogBoyRy]

Life must be so easy for people who have checked out with blinders on. Operation Ajax had our CIA overthrow Mohammed Mossadegh in 1953 at the behest of Britain. MM was democratically elected and in spite of what you are told by the media, DC HATES democracy. MM nationalized the oil fields because he had this crazy idea that the revenue from his country's natural resource should remain in Iran. Then the West installed the oppressive Shah Pahlavi and his bloody Savak. Real nice people. This caused the Iranian Revolution and the hostage crisis. Still not happy, Washington and the Oligarchs they represent, banked Iraq in a 7-8 year war. But, you're right. No U.S. President had anything to do with the shyte in the ME.

DC supplies Saudi Arabia with weapons and intel to exterminate a large portion of Yemen. SA are the good guys who behead their own people and will not allow women to drive. The CIA created Al Qaeda and ISIS could not exist w/o the CIA. DC backed AQ in its role in Libya in 2012 that has caused mayhem. The migrant crisis in Europe right now is because we are over there. Obombya has bombed or invaded 8 countries, but remember, its not the fault of U.S. presidents.

So the Iran of 1960's is the cause of the MILLIONS of refugees today. I think that might be a stretch.

 

[Nat Algren]

So the Iran of 1960's is the cause of the MILLIONS of refugees today. I think that might be a stretch.

The good news is this, I have narrowed down your learning problem to reading comprehension. That's the 1st step. What you do with that information is up to you.

 

[shank hawk]

There is no reason for water sports. We're not in as much disagreement about the problem as you imply. My main beef with your position is your path forward, not your recognition of our surroundings.

Fair enough.

By the way, when I talked 'pissing contest' I meant a back-and-forth verbal sparring of differing opinions.

I'm kinda naive but I believe 'water sports' may be something entirely different for certain members of our society and I am definitely not interested.

I'm off to the golf course: have a great day and Go Hawks

 

[DogBoyRy]

The good news is this, I have narrowed down your learning problem to reading comprehension. That's the 1st step. What you do with that information is up to you.

Wrong.
You're writing of about one paragraph really didn't convince me our Iran conflict from the 50-s-60's is why MILLIONS are fleeing NOW.
The other point I was trying to make before some of the hilarious lib defenses of BHO was I think if a republican the media hated was in charge we'd be seeing daily front page coverage of the plight of these refugees. The picture of the small boy washed up on the shore was on many European papers front pages. Picture was not even in many American papers.
So the two things to consider is the MSP is an enabler of BHO's policies that have created this disaster and BHO's policies have contributed if not caused it.

 

[Nat Algren]

Wrong.
You're writing of about one paragraph really didn't convince me our Iran conflict from the 50-s-60's is why MILLIONS are fleeing NOW.
The other point I was trying to make before some of the hilarious lib defenses of BHO was I think if a republican the media hated was in charge we'd be seeing daily front page coverage of the plight of these refugees. The picture of the small boy washed up on the shore was on many European papers front pages. Picture was not even in many American papers.
So the two things to consider is the MSP is an enabler of BHO's policies that have created this disaster and BHO's policies have contributed if not caused it.

Was Iran the only country that I detailed in my post? No. My post was in response to a poster who said U.S. presidents hold no culpability in the "shyte going on in the ME." I mentioned the decades of involvement by western powers. In the 2nd paragraph, which seem to gloss over again, provides a brief summary of the other countries that have been affected because of 1% meddling. Feel free to dismiss again and fixate on Iran.

 

[86Hawkeye]

It's customary to blame the mess on the one who made it. So not only will we be able to blame W, but we will be correct to do so. If Gore had been correctly installed none of this Mid East mess happens.

Obama took a relatively calm ME and has let it decend into chaos.

It started with his blind desire to abandon Iraq and has snowballed from there.

 

[hawkeyekid]

Fair enough.

By the way, when I talked 'pissing contest' I meant a back-and-forth verbal sparring of differing opinions.

I'm kinda naive but I believe 'water sports' may be something entirely different for certain members of our society and I am definitely not interested.

I'm off to the golf course: have a great day and Go Hawks

I think shank hawk and natural may be the 2 best posters on hrot.

 

[naturalmwa]

Fair enough.

By the way, when I talked 'pissing contest' I meant a back-and-forth verbal sparring of differing opinions.

I'm kinda naive but I believe 'water sports' may be something entirely different for certain members of our society and I am definitely not interested.

I'm off to the golf course: have a great day and Go Hawks

You're not naive at all, you're right on the mark.

 

[Jan Itor]

If Gore had been correctly installed none of this Mid East mess happens.

Because you have a crystal ball? JHC, for anyone to make a statement like that is simply ridiculous. We have "NO" idea how things would be different today had Gore been elected. For all we know, it could be worse. You can go on believing that when Dems are in charge, everything around the world is peaceful and wonderful, the the fact is, the world has never been peaceful and wonderful throughout history. Christ, stop with the one-sided thought process.

 

[naturalmwa]

Because you have a crystal ball? JHC, for anyone to make a statement like that is simply ridiculous. We have "NO" idea how things would be different today had Gore been elected. For all we know, it could be worse. You can go on believing that when Dems are in charge, everything around the world is peaceful and wonderful, the the fact is, the world has never been peaceful and wonderful throughout history. Christ, stop with the one-sided thought process.

Still can't face up to your responsibility. I'll continue to help because you all are likely to nominate a guy who wants to repeat those same mistakes. Start using your own crystal ball and think your positions through.

 

[Jan Itor]

What part of the current mess isn't better with Gore? Iraq, ISIS, Syria, Iran are all better if we rewarded the popular will of the people in 2000. Id entertain your argument to the contrary.

So what you're saying is the revolt against Assad was initiated by ISIS? If that's what you're saying, you and your little buddy Mitch L need to stop playing tummy sticks and pull your heads out of your ass. The ME has been boiling for a long time. The initial revolt against Assad was by rebels representing the people that were tired of the dictatorship. Once it got going, it created a vacuum and all kinds of groups looking for a fight flooded into Syria, all while Obama sat by and pondered what to do.

Or maybe you think the Arab Spring doesn't happen if Gore is POTUS?

I'm in agreement with you that Bush went into Iraq with an agenda that was far from what he was representing to the country. And the unintended or intended consequences have caused troubles over there that we're paying for now. That is definitely on him and his administration.

But the man in office now has done nothing to make it better, mainly because it seems like he has no ideas, or backbone. And if Gore were the POTUS instead of Bush, Saddam might still be in charge in Iraq, or, he may have been one of the victims of the Arab Spring. We don't know.

But please, you and Mitch, whip out your crystal balls so we can all get a look so we can be as wise as you.

 

[HawktimusPrime]

Wrong.
You're writing of about one paragraph really didn't convince me our Iran conflict from the 50-s-60's is why MILLIONS are fleeing NOW.
The other point I was trying to make before some of the hilarious lib defenses of BHO was I think if a republican the media hated was in charge we'd be seeing daily front page coverage of the plight of these refugees. The picture of the small boy washed up on the shore was on many European papers front pages. Picture was not even in many American papers.
So the two things to consider is the MSP is an enabler of BHO's policies that have created this disaster and BHO's policies have contributed if not caused it.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Why don't you read a book instead of listening to Rush Limbaugh. You have no information of your own and you are completely wasting space in this thread.
Your level of ignorance on this is staggering.

 

[Jan Itor]

Still can't face up to your responsibility. I'll continue to help because you all are likely to nominate a guy who wants to repeat those same mistakes. Start using your own crystal ball and think your positions through.

Be specific. What in my post was wrong? The world has been a peaceful and wonderful place throughout history until Republicans started taking charge?

As you have probably seen by now in my later post, I blame Bush for Iraq's current woes. I never have defended him on that.

So again, be specific and tell me where I was wrong.

 

[naturalmwa]

So what you're saying is the revolt against Assad was initiated by ISIS? If that's what you're saying, you and your little buddy Mitch L need to stop playing tummy sticks and pull your heads out of your ass. The ME has been boiling for a long time. The initial revolt against Assad was by rebels representing the people that were tired of the dictatorship. Once it got going, it created a vacuum and all kinds of groups looking for a fight flooded into Syria, all while Obama sat by and pondered what to do.

Or maybe you think the Arab Spring doesn't happen if Gore is POTUS?

I'm in agreement with you that Bush went into Iraq with an agenda that was far from what he was representing to the country. And the unintended or intended consequences have caused troubles over there that we're paying for now. That is definitely on him and his administration.

But the man in office now has done nothing to make it better, mainly because it seems like he has no ideas, or backbone. And if Gore were the POTUS instead of Bush, Saddam might still be in charge in Iraq, or, he may have been one of the victims of the Arab Spring. We don't know.

But please, you and Mitch, whip out your crystal balls so we can all get a look so we can be as wise as you.

That vacuum you recognized was caused by Bush. I'm offering you my insights so you can indeed become more wise and thoughtful and not nominate another neocon who will create another vacuum in Iran. Wake up, learn your lesson. There are a few non-neocon options running on your team, support them.

 

[naturalmwa]

Be specific. What in my post was wrong? The world has been a peaceful and wonderful place throughout history until Republicans started taking charge?

As you have probably seen by now in my later post, I blame Bush for Iraq's current woes. I never have defended him on that.

So again, be specific and tell me where I was wrong.

You're wrong for thinking the later upheavals in the mid east would be as they are now without the vacuum Bush created. Iran would be weaker, there would be no ISIS, Syria would be localized and likely over by now which means no migration issues. There is one root cause for the mess.

 

[HawktimusPrime]

That vacuum you recognized was caused by Bush. I'm offering you my insights so you can indeed become more wise and thoughtful and not nominate another neocon who will create another vacuum in Iran. Wake up, learn your lesson. There are a few non-neocon options running on your team, support them.

You're right, but this deal with Iran is dangerous for reasons others are not speaking of. In the future it will be used as justification for the coming war with Iran. That's the whole point of it to be honest.
I believe the Administration, or at least the advisors behind the deal know this.
So you're right, but you're missing a few points.

 

[Nat Algren]

It's customary to blame the mess on the one who made it. So not only will we be able to blame W, but we will be correct to do so. If Gore had been correctly installed none of this Mid East mess happens.

First of all, to presume that the president is the one in charge is just childish. Every administration is dominated by the Oligarchs behind the scenes. You know, the ones who fronted a $1 Billion to Obama in the last election cycle.

Second of all, do you really think that the sanctions placed on Iraq by Bill Clinton that resulted in the death of 576,000 women and children had no reprisal effect? I despise the Bush crime family more than anyone. But, it is absolutely ludicrous to suggest it is one sided. Gore would have done what he was told to do or destroyed.

 

[DogBoyRy]

Was Iran the only country that I detailed in my post? No. My post was in response to a poster who said U.S. presidents hold no culpability in the "shyte going on in the ME." I mentioned the decades of involvement by western powers. In the 2nd paragraph, which seem to gloss over again, provides a brief summary of the other countries that have been affected because of 1% meddling. Feel free to dismiss again and fixate on Iran.

Wow
What a tard.
The current unrest in Egypt, Syria, Libya, is not due to crap from the 50's and 60's. The Iraq mess s directly due to BHO's premature pull out...

 

[naturalmwa]

First of all, to presume that the president is the one in charge is just childish. Every administration is dominated by the Oligarchs behind the scenes. You know, the ones who fronted a $1 Billion to Obama in the last election cycle.

Second of all, do you really think that the sanctions placed on Iraq by Bill Clinton that resulted in the death of 576,000 women and children had no reprisal effect? I despise the Bush crime family more than anyone. But, it is absolutely ludicrous to suggest it is one sided. Gore would have done what he was told to do or destroyed.

View embedded media

View embedded media

View embedded media

What kind of fiction are you selling? The Iraq war wasn't reciprical.

 

[strummingram]

Partisan disciples are more dangerous to this country than their leaders. It never ceases to amaze me how rigidly they stick by their "sides." Both sides are equally complicit and one contributes to the next. And, they accomplish it over and over because of the endless support of their partisan citizens. Blaming the "other side" while helping it along by defending their side, who is just as complicit. This country deserves every bit of misery and reprisal it ever gets from the indigenous people of that region. They asked for it... practically begged for it and made certain that no other outcome was possible. Keep supporting these bought-off flunkies and they'll continue to ruin our lives and the lives of innocent people in other countries... provided those countries have a valuable natural resource.

 

[Nat Algren]

Wow
What a tard.
The current unrest in Egypt, Syria, Libya, is not due to crap from the 50's and 60's. The Iraq mess s directly due to BHO's premature pull out...

You're a flipping dunce. Do you really think we are wanted over there? Would you be cool with China or Russia bombing your family? You're thick. Then you point to one country as an example. Guess what Chief... we're all over the continent. Did we pull out of those countries too? I never laid claim to just the 50's and 60's. We never stop intervening in the affairs of others. Your recount of history is limited.

 

[Nat Algren]

What kind of fiction are you selling? The Iraq war wasn't reciprical.

What was fiction in the video admissions by the war criminals in the Clinton administration? Wasn't Gore a VP at that time?

 

[Nat Algren]

Wow
What a tard.
The current unrest in Egypt, Syria, Libya, is not due to crap from the 50's and 60's. The Iraq mess s directly due to BHO's premature pull out...

The decision to de-stabilize the ME was in 2001 or earlier.

 

[joelbc1]

Read what he wrote. He claimed if Gore was elected instead of Bush NONE of the middle east mess happens.

Muteo.....facts being what they are...Can you disprove what his statement says? The facts of the matter is that we will never know.......Ever wonder how long the Great Depression would have lasted is FDR wasn't elected POTUS? Can you prove it?

 

[joelbc1]

Clinton bombed Iraq which accelerated their hunt for weapons. Then he proposed the Iraqi Liberation Act, which was almost verbatim compared to what Bush later said.
It's a team game Joel and you follow madness. Your bad, not mine.

Hawkti.....The fact remains Junior invaded Iraq and removed Sadaam from power....and THAT act is what destabalized the ME and led to the rise of the Taliban and eventually ISIL in the region.
Sadaam was in a lot of ways the ME answer to Marshall Tito of Yugoslavia. He was a necessary evil to the Soviets because he kept that region of the world "orderly"...As soon as Tito died, Yugoslavia went to hell in a hand basket....Sadaam was a necessary evil for the West in the ME for much the same reason.

 

[DogBoyRy]

The decision to de-stabilize the ME was in 2001 or earlier.

View embedded media

Great
Old Moon Beam Clark and his memory.
Isn't he the guy who wanted to attack Russian troops in Kosovo or somewhere? I think he even gave orders to.

 

[strummingram]

Hawkti.....The fact remains Junior invaded Iraq and removed Sadaam from power....and THAT act is what destabalized the ME and led to the rise of the Taliban and eventually ISIL in the region.
Sadaam was in a lot of ways the ME answer to Marshall Tito of Yugoslavia. He was a necessary evil to the Soviets because he kept that region of the world "orderly"...As soon as Tito died, Yugoslavia went to hell in a hand basket....Sadaam was a necessary evil for the West in the ME for much the same reason.

^^^^^^^

Prime example of partisan hack.

"My side is not as responsible as theirs."

It's amazing the lengths they will go to resist culpability. These partisans must have a lot invested in this mess to be so resolved in denying their own guilt.

 

[GlenHawk]

Why is that so muteo? It was Junior who invaded Iraq, removed Sadaam and de-stabalized the area. Granted, Obama screwed the pooch to some extent with Assad and Syria....but Muteo, the ME is a mess regardless. How many US troop do you want to die trying to rectify the mistakes of Junior and Obama? And, the real and the initial mistake was made by Junior, not Obama. There is a reason that Senior did what he did in the ME back in the early 90's.....Chew on that awhile, my friend. Junior was not as smart as his father.

 

[Jan Itor]

That vacuum you recognized was caused by Bush. I'm offering you my insights so you can indeed become more wise and thoughtful and not nominate another neocon who will create another vacuum in Iran. Wake up, learn your lesson. There are a few non-neocon options running on your team, support them.

Well, I'm obviously dealing with a poster that is full of himself, and his self-proclaimed knowledge of the world. The Arab spring is not a result of Bush in Iraq. The Arab Spring was festering long before Saddam was toppled. Therefore, we have no idea how the ME would look today had Gore been elected. And again, anyone that says they now (you) is kidding themselves or trolling.

 

[Jan Itor]

You're wrong for thinking the later upheavals in the mid east would be as they are now without the vacuum Bush created. Iran would be weaker, there would be no ISIS, Syria would be localized and likely over by now which means no migration issues. There is one root cause for the mess.

You state this as if it is fact. It is not fact, just your opinion. And since you hold such a high opinion of yourself, I can only assume your opinion is misguided.

I already blame Bush for Iraq. And there are candidates on the GOP side that would love to use military force to topple Iran. Those are "NOT" the ones I will vote for. There are others that felt we dealt with the Iranians from a position of weakness, and I agree. Obama and Kerry screwed the pooch on this one, IMO. The problem is, now there isn't really a way to get the back to the table after shit canning the deal in place. We had our chance and screwed it up. So those candidates that think we should scrap the current agreement, are wrong, because it's too late to sit down fresh and negotiate a fair, iron tight agreement. We could have and should have done better. But as I said, I'm not for invading Iran or scraping the existing POS, and will not be voting for a candidate that is hell bent on doing either or both.

There may come a time when we have to act militarily, but that time is not now, and should not be in the top 3 of options.

 

[Jan Itor]

Muteo.....facts being what they are...Can you disprove what his statement says? The facts of the matter is that we will never know.......Ever wonder how long the Great Depression would have lasted is FDR wasn't elected POTUS? Can you prove it?

Can you prove is statement to be true? Obviously you pretty much said no, you cannot. But he is acting like he is stating fact and those that disagree are uneducated in the matter and that he is teaching them.

I agree with you. We do not know how things would have turned out if Gore was elected instead of Bush.

 

[Jan Itor]

Hawkti.....The fact remains Junior invaded Iraq and removed Sadaam from power....and THAT act is what destabalized the ME and led to the rise of the Taliban and eventually ISIL in the region.
Sadaam was in a lot of ways the ME answer to Marshall Tito of Yugoslavia. He was a necessary evil to the Soviets because he kept that region of the world "orderly"...As soon as Tito died, Yugoslavia went to hell in a hand basket....Sadaam was a necessary evil for the West in the ME for much the same reason.

The rise of the Taliban happened when we supported them when Russia occupied Afghanistan.

 

[joelbc1]

Well, I'm obviously dealing with a poster that is full of himself, and his self-proclaimed knowledge of the world. The Arab spring is not a result of Bush in Iraq. The Arab Spring was festering long before Saddam was toppled. Therefore, we have no idea how the ME would look today had Gore been elected. And again, anyone that says they now (you) is kidding themselves or trolling.

Exactly jan....it was there BEFORE Sadaam was toppled.....His removal destabilized the region and allowed it to occur. Thank you for making my point.
Honestly, if Sadaam would have been allowed to remain in Iraq, the ME would be much different than it is today. Not saying for the better, but not saying any worse, either. Anti-West...probably but ISIL wouldn't be the player it is today with him in power.
Junior's Iraq strategy was poorly thought. There was NO exit plan and not much "in case" planning either. We should have NEVER gone into Iraq. Knowing what we know today, it was a severe overplay by the US.

 

[naturalmwa]

You state this as if it is fact. It is not fact, just your opinion. And since you hold such a high opinion of yourself, I can only assume your opinion is misguided.

I already blame Bush for Iraq. And there are candidates on the GOP side that would love to use military force to topple Iran. Those are "NOT" the ones I will vote for. There are others that felt we dealt with the Iranians from a position of weakness, and I agree. Obama and Kerry screwed the pooch on this one, IMO. The problem is, now there isn't really a way to get the back to the table after shit canning the deal in place. We had our chance and screwed it up. So those candidates that think we should scrap the current agreement, are wrong, because it's too late to sit down fresh and negotiate a fair, iron tight agreement. We could have and should have done better. But as I said, I'm not for invading Iran or scraping the existing POS, and will not be voting for a candidate that is hell bent on doing either or both.

There may come a time when we have to act militarily, but that time is not now, and should not be in the top 3 of options.

That's progress. Which of the candidates holds your attention now?

 

[Jan Itor]

That's progress. Which of the candidates holds your attention now?

Before I answer that, why don't you respond to the people that are calling for the removal of Assad as the leader of Syria? Obama, Clinton, Kerry, etc..... These people seem hell bent on repeating the same mistakes as their counterparts. So, are you going to vote for the one running for office? And isn't that interesting that your party wants to remove a dictator in the ME. Learn and let learn, eh?