Would the Allies have dropped an atomic bomb on Germany?

[lucas80]

There doesn't seem to have ever been much discussion amongst the US and British about using an atomic bomb in the European theater. The war ended before practical deployment could be achieved, but there does not seem to have been any planning to ever use one. Why? The attached article gives some reasons, fear of an unexploded bomb falling into the hands of German scientists, and the bombs being best suited to the B-29. The second one seems to be a weak argument. The British Lancaster could do the job, and I don't believe transferring a wing of B-29s to England would have been that difficult as it is suggested to be. The vulnerability of the B-29 to a still potent Luftwaffe seems to be a bigger concern.
Of all the articles I could find no concerns were stated about collateral damage or fallout. Even those relatively weak atom bombs produced radioactive fallout. If the war in Europe had stalled in the Fall of 1944, and the Russians had been held back, would we have dropped an atom bomb that might have produced fallout that would have affected Soviet troops?
Interesting notes in the article about the early target planning done in 1943. I was somewhat surprised to see the Japanese fleet at Truk so prominently mentioned. However, a bomb dropped into that harbor, ringed by mountains, would have been devastating.
Discuss.
https://ieer.org/resource/commentary/always-the-target/

 

[lucas80]

Another article with some similar points.
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/atomic-bomb-on-germany.html

 

[torbee]

It would not surprise me if there were some racial undertones to the decision.

The Japanese were portrayed in media and propaganda much more “other” than the Germans, particularly the non-Nazi civilian population.

Easier to justify mass civilian casualties when the enemy is defined as somewhat sub-human.

 

[DropitlikeitsHawk]

Not much discussion. Upgrade your cable package. And yes they would have.

 

[Jimmy McGill]

There were certainly a racial overtone to it. But aside from Torbee said, the Pacific was just a mass killing factory. Japan was not going to surrender.


But remember this, the reason for the Manhattan project was to get the bomb before Germany did (and they were working hard on it}. If Normandy and next 6 months had not been so successful and things became a stalemate, yes, I think it would have been used on Germany.

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

It would not surprise me if there were some racial undertones to the decision.

The Japanese were portrayed in media and propaganda much more “other” than the Germans, particularly the non-Nazi civilian population.

Easier to justify mass civilian casualties when the enemy is defined as somewhat sub-human.

FWIW

In the war overall, bombing of Japanese cities might have killed about 337,000, including my estimate of 165,000 by atomic bombs, the quintessential city and civilian killers. Equally indiscriminate bombing of German cities by the United States and Britain may have killed about 410,000 German civilians.

Commentary: Was American WWII Bombing Democide?

 

[Jimmy McGill]

People often talk about how many more Americans would have died on an invasion. This is true. But if we didn't use the bombs, I think Japan would have had another million casualties and completely left country in ashes.

 

[tumorboy]

FWIW

In the war overall, bombing of Japanese cities might have killed about 337,000, including my estimate of 165,000 by atomic bombs, the quintessential city and civilian killers. Equally indiscriminate bombing of German cities by the United States and Britain may have killed about 410,000 German civilians.

Commentary: Was American WWII Bombing Democide?

Didn’t the book Slaughter House 5 feature the fire bombing of Dersden. KV argued it was essentially the ally equivalent of Hiroshima.

 

[millah_22]

It would not surprise me if there were some racial undertones to the decision.

The Japanese were portrayed in media and propaganda much more “other” than the Germans, particularly the non-Nazi civilian population.

Easier to justify mass civilian casualties when the enemy is defined as somewhat sub-human.

Maybe, but also the Japanese weren't giving up. It was going to be 2 options: Keep bombing them, or start a front on land. A land conflict would have cost dozens of thousands of lives on both sides.

Even after bombing them twice, they still didn't want to surrender. They tried to form a coup to keep from surrendering.

Japan needed to see with their own eyes that it futile to continue. It wasn't so much that Americans wanted to be racist.

 

[artradley]

Maybe, but also the Japanese weren't giving up. It was going to be 2 options: Keep bombing them, or start a front on land. A land conflict would have cost dozens of thousands of lives on both sides.

Even after bombing them twice, they still didn't want to surrender. They tried to form a coup to keep from surrendering.

Japan needed to see with their own eyes that it futile to continue. It wasn't so much that Americans wanted to be racist.

I think this was the biggest reason the bomb was used - the absolute refusal to surrender made it impossible to picture any conventional scenario of ending the war without even more deaths, especially Allied deaths.

 

[theiacowtipper]

We had the Germans ass whooped. We knew it. Everyone knew it except Hitler. We didn’t need it there.

 

[Jimmy McGill]

We had the Germans ass whooped. We knew it. Everyone knew it except Hitler. We didn’t need it there.

It was in question. If Normandy was not as successful as it was, it would have been a different story

 

[JRHawk2003]

We fired bombed Dresden and Tokyo.

Are those deaths somehow better because they were not nuked???

 

[Jimmy McGill]

Japan was training women and children on the homefront to fight to the death if there was an invasion. Fact.

 

[Jimmy McGill]

Germans by in part wanted their war over and for Hitler to go.

 

[win4jj]

Didn’t the book Slaughter House 5 feature the fire bombing of Dersden. KV argued it was essentially the ally equivalent of Hiroshima.

Way to many what if’s.
But I wish today had more KV’s. ….Don’t ban his books.

 

[JRHawk2003]

Germany has of course gotten rid of all Nazi names, etc. but WWI is still very present there. I saw memorials in nearly all the cities I went to.

In WWI we sided with UK and France rather than Germany. Likely mostly because of the language.

 

[tumorboy]

Germans by in part wanted their war over and for Hitler to go.

Yeah, after the allies marched into Berlin. They all wanted him to go

 

[Jimmy McGill]

Yeah, after the allies marched into Berlin. They all wanted him to go

No, it was far earlier. Read up on it.

 

[tumorboy]

Way to many what if’s.
But I wish today had more KV’s. ….Don’t ban his books.

Which of his books are banned?

 

[tumorboy]

No, it was far earlier. Read up on it.

Yeah I know several assassination attempts. But the point being the military could have sidelined him at any time.

 

[seminole97]

It would not surprise me if there were some racial undertones to the decision.

The Japanese were portrayed in media and propaganda much more “other” than the Germans, particularly the non-Nazi civilian population.

Easier to justify mass civilian casualties when the enemy is defined as somewhat sub-human.

Including the atomic bombs the Allies killed more German civilians than Japanese civilians.

It was just seen as the biggest bomb ever created to that point. It would have been used if the military saw a benefit in using it. It wasn’t ready in time to be used in Europe.

 

[seminole97]

Germany has of course gotten rid of all Nazi names, etc. but WWI is still very present there. I saw memorials in nearly all the cities I went to.

In WWI we sided with UK and France rather than Germany. Likely mostly because of the language.

LOL

Look at who was holding the French and British debt that was going into default if they lost.

We marched into WW1 to save Wall Street, not any American interests.

 

[Jimmy McGill]

Yeah I know several assassination attempts. But the point being the military could have sidelined him at any time.

Several of them did attempt to. They got shot.

 

[seminole97]

Germans by in part wanted their war over and for Hitler to go.

I see this sentiment expressed by a Gazan, yet there are people insisting on a ceasefire to preserve Hamas in power.

I don’t get it.

 

[seminole97]

Several of them did attempt to. They got shot.

Or hung with piano wire for Hitler to watch.

 

[BelemNole]

Another question - what would hitler have targeted had they gotten it first?

 

[Jimmy McGill]

Another question - what would hitler have targeted had they gotten it first?

London

 

[tumorboy]

Several of them did attempt to. They got shot.

I’m talking mass surrender. If logistics commanders just say no more. Not much any amount of hangings can do.

 

[Jimmy McGill]

I’m talking mass surrender. If logistics commanders just say no more. Not much any amount of hangings can do.

The leaders were for the most part, already were war criminals. Surrender meant their certain execution at Nuremburg

 

[lucas80]

Another question - what would hitler have targeted had they gotten it first?

That was my question. Let's assume Germany's borders had been relatively intact and the frontlines static in 1945 do you bomb Berlin? A more industrial target? Anything in the south that might lead to radioactive drift into Switzerland?

 

[Jimmy McGill]

Also every Field Commander was scared as shit of the SS

 

[Jimmy McGill]

That was my question. Let's assume Germany's borders had been relatively intact and the frontlines static in 1945 do you bomb Berlin? A more industrial target? Anything in the south that might lead to radioactive drift into Switzerland?

Yes. And I could care less about the Swiss. They were taking and hiding assets for Nazis

Edit: and taking money from an amoral Catholic Church that enabled fascism.

 

[seminole97]

Another question - what would hitler have targeted had they gotten it first?

Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad, keep running down the list of places in the East they intended to depopulate and de-urbanize.

 

[Jimmy McGill]

Japan lost about 2.5 million in the war. Germany about 5.3 million. About 70% of those were on the Eastern front, not by US and UK

 

[seminole97]

That was my question. Let's assume Germany's borders had been relatively intact and the frontlines static in 1945 do you bomb Berlin? A more industrial target? Anything in the south that might lead to radioactive drift into Switzerland?

Military in 1945 wasn’t dropping their bombs with any thought toward fallout and civilians.

On April 22, 1952 about 200 reporters from across the country gathered on a mound of volcanic rock on the edge of Yucca Lake in Nevada. The journalists and cameramen were there to witness the detonation of a nuclear bomb on United States soil. Such tests had been in operation for more than a year, but for the first time, the press had been invited to record and broadcast the nuclear explosion. Dubbed "News Nob," the journalists' post was only ten miles from ground zero, giving Americans, from the safety of their living rooms, a front seat proxy to the explosion.

Link

Days after the first bomb was detonated on January 27, 1951, the Las Vegas Chamber of Commerce issued a stream of press releases excitedly describing the new testing grounds as one of the many attractions Las Vegas had to offer. As one official described, "The angle was to get people to think the explosions wouldn't be anything more than a gag."

Nuclear Innocence

After the April 22, 1952, televised broadcast of the bomb, atomic culture swept the nation, and Las Vegas became the epicenter of the craze. The mushroom cloud associated with the bomb became an icon for Las Vegas, adorning postcards, candy, toys, showgirls' headdresses and more. Las Vegas establishments like the Flamingo and the Sands hawked the Atomic Cocktail, the Atomic Hairdo and Miss Atomic Bomb beauty contests.

Atomic Tourism

The Las Vegas Chamber of Commerce issued a calendar for tourists, listing the scheduled times of the bomb detonations and the best places to view them.

 

[1inamillion]

It would not surprise me if there were some racial undertones to the decision.

The Japanese were portrayed in media and propaganda much more “other” than the Germans, particularly the non-Nazi civilian population.

Easier to justify mass civilian casualties when the enemy is defined as somewhat sub-human.

I think americans thought hitler was a monster not just subhuman. I have never seen nor heard anything suggesting that this was a racist decision. It was means to end the war quickly while limiting excessive bloodshed. Good grief could we at least give this piece of history the proper perspective and leave accusations of racism out of it? The left is so enamored with racist and other labels today . Just craziness. Even Bill Maher complains about it.

 

[Jimmy McGill]

I think americans thought hitler was a monster not just subhuman. I have never seen nor heard anything suggesting that this was a racist decision. It was means to end the war quickly while limiting excessive bloodshed. Good grief could we at least give this piece of history the proper perspective and leave accusations of racism out of it? The left is so enamored with racist and other labels today . Just craziness. Even Bill Maher complains about it.

You haven't read many history books on the war I guess. American GIs were racist as **** in the Pacific. It was how they got through the war.

In Europe, GIs were fighting people that looked like them. I agree with Maher, but today is a much, much different time from 1944

 

[Jimmy McGill]

We didn't relocate people into camps of German ethnicity, we did with the Japanese. To pretend that there were not racial overtones is putting your head in the sand

 

[1inamillion]

You haven't read many history books on the war I guess. American GIs were racist as **** in the Pacific. It was how they got through the war.

In Europe, GIs were fighting people that looked like them. I agree with Maher, but today is a much, much different time from 1944

Do you think the bomb was dropped was dropped because of racism? Lol