would you trade Iowa's staff straight up for isu's staff

[rossel 33]

Iowa's 2013 class is basically gone except BS.

2 of top 3 recruits from 2014 class are gone. The attrition that is happening is of concern to me.

Gross and ? Paddock

Gross has turned into a real contender. But I can't be too critical of the handling of the extracurriculars, and support Brands on that. Good for Seth that he's stayed out of trouble, and better yet.... Clark beat him anyway.

I'm not sure Paddock was going to do much. With Marinelli and Young set for the next 4 years, I don't see Paddock's departure as anything too detrimental.

The key, imho, is continuing to get guys that are top 10 p4p recruits... guys that can make a splash (e.g. AA) as a RS Fr (like Kemerer just did) and keep producing for 4 years.

 

[MVPFAN]

Yeah, ok. You are right, he did dominate the 4-team Big 12. Unfortunately for him he never beat Iowa as a wrestler nor as a coach at ISU, and he wasn't getting a title with the ISU wrestlers that you listed - we have hindsight for that.

You have absolutely no basis for "likely would have won a title or two," and you purposefully only look to his resumes at the time, as opposed to the resumes of all the other teams out there. When would his best years have come? His best year was his first, and even with Taylor he wasn't over some hump, as Iowa won in 2008, 9 and 10. Taylor got his titles in 2011 and 2013. Unless of course you believe he was pulling in Wright, Molinaro, Ruth, or any of the current studs.

Do you know who thought he wouldn't overcome the hump? Cael Sanderson - he admitted as much after his move.

But good work on the bold, considering half of it are his accomplishments in the B12.

My original reply was to a claim Dresser is somehow a better coach than Sanderson. There will never be any kind of real debate on that. I don't care what schools they coach at. Sanderson is an ego maniac and wants to be the best, he took the big money and big support at PSU because he is not stupid.. You have no basis to say he would not have won a title at ISU either and the fact he has was doing quite well at ISU already and he is the top recruiter and he has been dominating college wrestling at PSU I like my position that he would have won a title at ISU a lot more than the position he would not have. And the bolded part also included 2nd, 5th and 3rd place finishes at nationals with the last year only 12 points from first.

 

[Jaybird319]

Gross and ? Paddock

Gross has turned into a real contender. But I can't be too critical of the handling of the extracurriculars, and support Brands on that. Good for Seth that he's stayed out of trouble, and better yet.... Clark beat him anyway.

I'm not sure Paddock was going to do much. With Marinelli and Young set for the next 4 years, I don't see Paddock's departure as anything too detrimental.

The key, imho, is continuing to get guys that are top 10 p4p recruits... guys that can make a splash (e.g. AA) as a RS Fr (like Kemerer just did) and keep producing for 4 years.

I get what you are saying about p4p guys. I'm just pointing out that we have lost guys and time/investments along the way. Especially when looking back on "recruitment classes" those are lean years

 

[theIowaHawk]

My original reply was to a claim Dresser is somehow a better coach than Sanderson. There will never be any kind of real debate on that. I don't care what schools they coach at. Sanderson is an ego maniac and wants to be the best, he took the big money and big support at PSU because he is not stupid.. You have no basis to say he would not have won a title at ISU either and the fact he has was doing quite well at ISU already and he is the top recruiter and he has been dominating college wrestling at PSU I like my position that he would have won a title at ISU a lot more than the position he would not have. And the bolded part also included 2nd, 5th and 3rd place finishes at nationals with the last year only 12 points from first.

Yes, and you blatantly ignore the teams he lost to - who was he beating without the PSU troops? Do you really believe the Pennsylvania contingent was headed his way without the move?

Even Cael disagreed with you. Unlike you, I do have a basis, it is called history, results, hindsight. You are trying to say his third place finish shows his ability to win titles there, while ignoring the higher placing teams proven ability to, you know, actually accomplish it.

I don't even know why this is a point you are trying to make, as it is meaningless - he moved on and has won.

 

[MVPFAN]

Yes, and you blatantly ignore the teams he lost to - who was he beating without the PSU troops? Do you really believe the Pennsylvania contingent was headed his way without the move?

Even Cael disagreed with you. Unlike you, I do have a basis, it is called history, results, hindsight. You are trying to say his third place finish shows his ability to win titles there, while ignoring the higher placing teams proven ability to, you know, actually accomplish it.

I don't even know why this is a point you are trying to make, as it is meaningless - he moved on and has won.

Blatantly ignore? I did not ignore anything. I never said they were the best when he was there.

The only point I am making is Dresser is not in Sanderson's league. It is my opinion he would have won a title at ISU if he stayed. The only thing history says is he did not win one in the 3 years he was there, no one knows what would have happened if he stayed. If you don't think he would have won one then good for you. He felt it would be easier to win at PSU and he was right. That does not mean he was not capable at isu, he took the easier road. I'm not going to continue to go back and forth over opinion's that can't be proven.

 

[lionlover]

My original reply was to a claim Dresser is somehow a better coach than Sanderson. There will never be any kind of real debate on that. I don't care what schools they coach at. Sanderson is an ego maniac and wants to be the best, he took the big money and big support at PSU because he is not stupid.. You have no basis to say he would not have won a title at ISU either and the fact he has was doing quite well at ISU already and he is the top recruiter and he has been dominating college wrestling at PSU I like my position that he would have won a title at ISU a lot more than the position he would not have. And the bolded part also included 2nd, 5th and 3rd place finishes at nationals with the last year only 12 points from first.

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

 

[DonHawkeye]

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Don't know the guy personally but there are a lot of signs pointing to such, but you just keep thinking he is perfect.

 

[Czech Hawk]

Iowa's 2013 class is basically gone except BS.

2 of top 3 recruits from 2014 class are gone. The attrition that is happening is of concern to me.

Some years have more talent and things work out. It did for PSU this year. If we have solid guys in those weights that are competing with or better then people that are older, Kemerer and Marinelli are good examples for next year. I am not ignorant to what you are saying and understand how losing 5 starters will hurt us next year. It will also give younger guys a chance to wrestle and develop that we get to keep longer. And losing 5 starters was going to hurt no matter what year the guys behind them.

 

[ST8TAILG8R]

Does it sting a little that we "lost" out on Metcalf, maybe a little. I look at it this way, with all the outstanding wrestlers that leave our school, we can't have them ALL as coaches on our staff no matter how bad we want them.

Years down the road are we going to have the same conversation if a Gillman, Clark, (eventually Lee), etc catch on at other schools?

As much as it stings to some people, I think its MORE impressive if you look at the huge amount of schools that have either coaches or asst coaches with Iowa ties. To me, that's proof that we are doing it right at Iowa and schools would rather go after our past great wrestlers that looking at some of their own alums.

The other thing I look at is that even though some of our wrestlers go to other schools and want to do their best and make the school great, their heart and their roots will still bleed Hawkeye gold and black!

Be careful, that is the exact mentality that us Cyclones thought about when Gable left during the Nichols Era. And again when Cael left. Afterall, we had Varner and Reader and other hammers still in the pipeline, right? Can't keep them all. It was painful.That is why Cyclones have to find solace in our current situation and move forward.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Blatantly ignore? I did not ignore anything. I never said they were the best when he was there.

The only point I am making is Dresser is not in Sanderson's league. It is my opinion he would have won a title at ISU if he stayed. The only thing history says is he did not win one in the 3 years he was there, no one knows what would have happened if he stayed. If you don't think he would have won one then good for you. He felt it would be easier to win at PSU and he was right. That does not mean he was not capable at isu, he took the easier road. I'm not going to continue to go back and forth over opinion's that can't be proven.

That is my point, you are basing your opinion on his success at Penn State. His ISU successes do not lend any credence to that opinion.

Surely Coach K would have won a basketball championship at Army, look what he did at Duke!

I'm not sure why PSU fans are liking and insisting on claiming Cael would have won regardless, you'd think they'd be proud of what their school enabled him to do.

 

[edquinn06]

ABSOLUTLY NOT!!!! IOWA STAFF ALL THE WAY

 

[lilHawkeye]

I currently wouldn't trade staffs with anyone (ok... If I'm being honest, probably PSU's). I'm hopeful that in three years, I can still say the same (but hopefully not that thing about PSU). I'm cautiously optimistic about where we're headed, but I think the margin for error keeps getting smaller. These two rounds of recruits (this years freshmen + next years class) needs to pan out and we'll be fine. Two titles over the next 4-5 years is a real possibility.
As far as Carl is concerned, at this point, I think he (and his staff) could go to any school that offers the full 9.9 and be a title contender within 2-3 years.

 

[Pennstate1985]

I currently wouldn't trade staffs with anyone (ok... If I'm being honest, probably PSU's). I'm hopeful that in three years, I can still say the same (but hopefully not that thing about PSU). I'm cautiously optimistic about where we're headed, but I think the margin for error keeps getting smaller. These two rounds of recruits (this years freshmen + next years class) needs to pan out and we'll be fine. Two titles over the next 4-5 years is a real possibility.
As far as Carl is concerned, at this point, I think he (and his staff) could go to any school that offers the full 9.9 and be a title contender within 2-3 years.

I think you need more than 9.9 schollies to succeed in the world today. You need an RTC and you need to assemble the right team. Only takes one or two bad apples to tear a team apart. I remember the BWI meltdown when Chance Marstellar left for OSU. We ended up with Jason Nolf. You need to pick the right kids, and ability on the mat is just one factor. A good student and good human being are just as important to a program. You can't waste two years of scholly money on a kid that gets put on academic probation or gets arrested. That's money you can't get back or couldn't promise to a great recruit. So selecting wisely is the name of the game these days.

 

[pablow]

I think you need more than 9.9 schollies to succeed in the world today. You need an RTC and you need to assemble the right team. Only takes one or two bad apples to tear a team apart. I remember the BWI meltdown when Chance Marstellar left for OSU. We ended up with Jason Nolf as a 'consolation' prize. You need to pick the right kids, and ability on the mat is just one factor. A good student and good human being are just as important to a program. You can't waste two years of scholly money on a kid that gets put on academic probation or gets arrested. That's money you can't get back or couldn't promise to a great recruit. So selecting wisely is the name of the game these days.

Selecting the "right kids" out of the top 5 pfp high schoolers is not the hard part - it's signing them.

 

[TarpHawk]

Gross and ? Paddock

Gross has turned into a real contender. But I can't be too critical of the handling of the extracurriculars, and support Brands on that. Good for Seth that he's stayed out of trouble, and better yet.... Clark beat him anyway.

I'm not sure Paddock was going to do much. With Marinelli and Young set for the next 4 years, I don't see Paddock's departure as anything too detrimental.

The key, imho, is continuing to get guys that are top 10 p4p recruits... guys that can make a splash (e.g. AA) as a RS Fr (like Kemerer just did) and keep producing for 4 years.

Paddock is exactly the kind of recruit we need to stop going after. He performed like you'd expect a #63 recruit to perform, i.e. adequate.

Gross was #41, and kudos to Brands for spotting under-the-radar talent. Also give a little credit to Bono and Schopp for taking him from 26-14 last year to 34-2 this year.

For every Gross there are 4 Paddocks and Kellys and Cartons and Rhoads. It's not a way to win titles. As we've learned.

 

[TarpHawk]

The reason the vote is close is because Iowa fans are getting impatient for the ship to be righted. We've picked up momentum in recruiting, but it took a dry spell to wake us from our slumber, we're still not closing the gap on Penn State, and as one could reasonably infer from the Teasdale episode, we still haven't learned how mobile phones work.

We have a reputation for being a bit insular, a bit stubborn, and a bit narrow in the type of wrestler we attract and groom. And if I'm a top-10 recruit, you need to convince me why I should come to Iowa. I don't have to beg you to let me come.

Sorry to be a dick about it. But that's why the vote is close.

I'm going to take back my snarky comment about the staff not knowing how mobile phones work (despite it being a good line). I've been told there was indeed ongoing contact after Teasdale's verbal commit, and that Teasdale may be slanting reality a bit to suit his narrative. My overall concerns are still valid, but I accept my penalty for unnecessary roughness after the whistle.

 

[The Vak]

I'm going to take back my snarky comment about the staff not knowing how mobile phones work (despite it being a good line). I've been told there was indeed ongoing contact after Teasdale's verbal commit, and that Teasdale may be slanting reality a bit to suit his narrative. My overall concerns are still valid, but I accept my penalty for unnecessary roughness after the whistle.

I have heard that we kept recruiting Teasdale after his verbal as if the verbal never happened, which is good even if it didn't work. In fact, I think Pyles even Tweeted something about it after the decommit. What prompted you to say Teasdale is slanting reality? Has he made public comments?

 

[rossel 33]

Selecting the "right kids" out of the top 5 pfp high schoolers is not the hard part - it's signing them.

I've noticed it can help if you sign a #1 p4p Jr World Gold medalist and "develop" him into a national champ as a true fr.

 

[artradley]

I've noticed it can help if you sign a #1 p4p Jr World Gold medalist and "develop" him into a national champ as a true fr.

However, if half your commits later decommit, and some of them quit the team or get booted off, it doesn't matter what their p4p rating was.

We've had some very good recruiting classes that seemed to look a helluva better when they were Seniors in high school than when they were Seniors in college. To me, this is the most disappointing part.

 

[lionlover]

Don't know the guy personally but there are a lot of signs pointing to such, but you just keep thinking he is perfect.

C'mon man. Show me were I ever said he was "perfect." Please don't try to piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

 

[jerot]

I think you need more than 9.9 schollies to succeed in the world today. You need an RTC and you need to assemble the right team. Only takes one or two bad apples to tear a team apart. I remember the BWI meltdown when Chance Marstellar left for OSU. We ended up with Jason Nolf. You need to pick the right kids, and ability on the mat is just one factor. A good student and good human being are just as important to a program. You can't waste two years of scholly money on a kid that gets put on academic probation or gets arrested. That's money you can't get back or couldn't promise to a great recruit. So selecting wisely is the name of the game these days.

Gee, thanks!

 

[cidhawkeye]

That is my point, you are basing your opinion on his success at Penn State. His ISU successes do not lend any credence to that opinion.

Surely Coach K would have won a basketball championship at Army, look what he did at Duke!

I'm not sure why PSU fans are liking and insisting on claiming Cael would have won regardless, you'd think they'd be proud of what their school enabled him to do.

Bad analogy. Army and Iowa State are nowhere near equivalents in those sports. Who was in Iowa States recruiting classes during Carl's time there? Was Taylor a #1 p4p guy?

 

[theIowaHawk]

Bad analogy. Army and Iowa State are nowhere near equivalents in those sports. Who was in Iowa States recruiting classes during Carl's time there? Was Taylor a #1 p4p guy?

It was a comparison to highlight the absurdity.

 

[cidhawkeye]

It was a comparison to highlight the absurdity.

No it was a bad analogy. Carl had a very realistic chance of winning a title at Iowa State and building a dynasty. Coach K would have little to no chance at Army. Carl had Taylor on the way, could he have continued that momentum?

 

[theIowaHawk]

No it was a bad analogy. Carl had a very realistic chance of winning a title at Iowa State and building a dynasty. Coach K would have little to no chance at Army. Carl had Taylor on the way, could he have continued that momentum?

Based on what? That was the point, based on what? His winning the Big 12? There were other teams in front of him, teams he blew past - once he got to PSU and got Pennsylvania recruits. We have hindsight and know who was going to be in his last ISU class - it wouldn't have won titles.

The only way you can pretend there is support for your contention is if you believe he would have still got those recruits ---- even without the first place finishes and without everything else PSU, which there is absolutely no support for.

I know he had Taylor - Taylor didn't single-handidly win him those first titles.

Now if you want to admit it isn't based on, you know, results or facts, sure, go ahead and admit that it is just your opinion. That is all I ever wanted, clarification on what it was based on.

 

[pinters]

Gable and Cael chief financiers on this ISU comeback so...
Anyways Iowa, Iowa State, Uni of Northern Iowa may be just Iowa. It's a Great deal if anything
Edit Northern Iowa

 

[Pennstate1985]

Based on what? That was the point, based on what? His winning the Big 12? There were other teams in front of him, teams he blew past - once he got to PSU and got Pennsylvania recruits. We have hindsight and know who was going to be in his last ISU class - it wouldn't have won titles.

The only way you can pretend there is support for your contention is if you believe he would have still got those recruits ---- even without the first place finishes and without everything else PSU, which there is absolutely no support for.

I know he had Taylor - Taylor didn't single-handidly win him those first titles.

Now if you want to admit it isn't based on, you know, results or facts, sure, go ahead and admit that it is just your opinion. That is all I ever wanted, clarification on what it was based on.

I think you're overselling your position. Anybody who has teams finishing 2nd, 5th, and 3rd has a case for winning nationals on occasion. Cael had ISU heading in the right direction, but we'll never know since it never happened. Would Cael have won nationals 6 out of 7 years at ISU? Hell no. But he probably would have won one or two at some point at ISU.

 

[rossel 33]

I think you're overselling your position. Anybody who has teams finishing 2nd, 5th, and 3rd has a case for winning nationals on occasion. Cael had ISU heading in the right direction, but we'll never know since it never happened. Would Cael have won nationals 6 out of 7 years at ISU? Hell no. But he probably would have won one or two at some point at ISU.

---

I agree that saying Cael never would've won a championship at some point while coaching at ISU is an overstatement.

Jim Gibbons won a championship coaching ISU. Bobby Douglas, despite being canned to make room for Cael, had a good overall record, finishing 2nd twice and in the top 6 the majority of the time.

But it's clear to me that Cael's roaring success at PSU has more to do with the unprecedented high caliber of his incoming recruits than his development skills, which in the minds of some PSU fans, seems to be far above every other coach.

 

[cosmo90]

The other aspect of Cael's move to PSU is that he got into the Big Ten. That BTN money and exposure is having an impact on college athletics that is playing out over the long term.

 

[Pennstate1985]

---

I agree that saying Cael never would've won a championship at some point while coaching at ISU is an overstatement.

Jim Gibbons won a championship coaching ISU. Bobby Douglas, despite being canned to make room for Cael, had a good overall record, finishing 2nd twice and in the top 6 the majority of the time.

But it's clear to me that Cael's roaring success at PSU has more to do with the unprecedented high caliber of his incoming recruits than his development skills, which in the minds of some PSU fans, seems to be far above every other coach.

Good post. As to the bolded, a significant aspect to Cael's success at PSU is clearly the caliber of recruits. Not sure he or anyone can or would dispute that. I wouldn't say that he is necessarily a better coach than anyone else. I think he has matured to a point to where he knows when to get out of the way and let his guys do their thing. No micromanaging. I also think he learned some valuable lessons while coaching at ISU that he has put into action at PSU, such as de-emphasizing drilling to a degree and emphasizing situational wrestling. Now that can only happen when you already have a superior wrestler, so in a sense everything is based on the prerequisite of a high caliber recruit. I'm very happy with Cael's development skills, as they are directly tied to the type of kids he recruits. Same with Tom Brands or any other high end coach.

 

[theIowaHawk]

I think you're overselling your position. Anybody who has teams finishing 2nd, 5th, and 3rd has a case for winning nationals on occasion. Cael had ISU heading in the right direction, but we'll never know since it never happened. Would Cael have won nationals 6 out of 7 years at ISU? Hell no. But he probably would have won one or two at some point at ISU.

Do I really need to ask this again? Based on what? 5th and 3rd place finishes? His 2nd was in his first year, but even including that, those finishes do not indicate championship success. Can you point to anything that demonstrates that it would? You make the same mistake as the other posters, ignoring the teams ahead of them and assume they would simply regress in order for ISU to gain. In wrestling, seemingly more than any other sport, that doesn't occur. Three teams have won the last how many?

But, following that logic, Dresser was going to win a championship at VT at some point, right? Or do you disagree with that.

 

[theIowaHawk]

---

I agree that saying Cael never would've won a championship at some point while coaching at ISU is an overstatement.

Jim Gibbons won a championship coaching ISU. Bobby Douglas, despite being canned to make room for Cael, had a good overall record, finishing 2nd twice and in the top 6 the majority of the time.

But it's clear to me that Cael's roaring success at PSU has more to do with the unprecedented high caliber of his incoming recruits than his development skills, which in the minds of some PSU fans, seems to be far above every other coach.

---

I agree that saying Cael never would've won a championship at some point while coaching at ISU is an overstatement.

Jim Gibbons won a championship coaching ISU. Bobby Douglas, despite being canned to make room for Cael, had a good overall record, finishing 2nd twice and in the top 6 the majority of the time.

But it's clear to me that Cael's roaring success at PSU has more to do with the unprecedented high caliber of his incoming recruits than his development skills, which in the minds of some PSU fans, seems to be far above every other coach.

To be clear - that isn't what I was saying. I'm saying there is no evidence to support the claim that he would have won.

I'm challenging claims like this one just made:

But he probably would have won one or two at some point at ISU.

Your last statement is on point.

 

[Azchief32]

I'd just like to say for the record that theiowahawk is not my backup profile or anything

 

[Pennstate1985]

Do I really need to ask this again? Based on what? 5th and 3rd place finishes? His 2nd was in his first year, but even including that, those finishes do not indicate championship success. Can you point to anything that demonstrates that it would? You make the same mistake as the other posters, ignoring the teams ahead of them and assume they would simply regress in order for ISU to gain. In wrestling, seemingly more than any other sport, that doesn't occur. Three teams have won the last how many?

Be careful, because if I used this logic for Tom Brands and Iowa the last 7 years, what would be your take on the matter?

Hell, before Cael came to PSU, they hadn't won nationals since 1953, so their past record was in no way indicative of their future success.

 

[Pennstate1985]

But, following that logic, Dresser was going to win a championship at VT at some point, right? Or do you disagree with that.

2nd, 5th, and 3rd (Cael at ISU) is a far cry from 11th, 10th, 8th, 10th, and 4th (Dresser at VT minus last year). Dresser was progressing, but only sniffed top 5 once, and VT doesn't have nearly the history that ISU does, and Dresser doesn't have nearly the name recognition that Cael does. Not a good analogy imo

 

[theIowaHawk]

2nd, 5th, and 3rd (Cael at ISU) is a far cry from 11th, 10th, 8th, 10th, and 4th (Dresser at VT minus last year). Dresser was progressing, but only sniffed top 5 once, and VT doesn't have nearly the history that ISU does, and Dresser doesn't have nearly the name recognition that Cael does. Not a good analogy imo

Interesting, he builds a program up (according to placement), Cael regresses a program (according to placement), and somehow Cael was destined to win "one or two" championships, but not Dresser. Somehow Cael's 5th is more indicative of Dresser's 4th.

This proves my point in spades.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Be careful, because if I used this logic for Tom Brands and Iowa the last 7 years, what would be your take on the matter?

Hell, before Cael came to PSU, they hadn't won nationals since 1953, so their past record was in no way indicative of their future success.

I'll start with the latter - none of this is based on the school, PSU's past results, while not irrelevant, are not informative - especially with hindsight. We are discussing this with hindsight.

And I'm not sure what you mean with the logic vis-a-vis Brands - he did win titles, that evidence is tangible. But I wouldn't disagree with your point, there isn't much evidence - right now - to suggest that Brands (or anyone else) will win titles, because it would have to assume that PSU would stop winning, and there isn't much evidence - right now - to demonstrate that will change. But, entirely unlike Cael's tenure at ISU, there is past proof of Brands' ability to win at the school he is at with the resources he has and the recruits he brings in - because it happened three times.

 

[theIowaHawk]

I find it humorous that there is now an argument that it would be wrong to claim Cael would never win at ISU, but somehow the same arguer is confident he would have won. Seems like truth for one would apply as truth for the other.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Getting the #1p4p recruit clearly shows Carl was tearing ISU down. He never could have won there. I have seen the light.

 

[pablow]

I find it humorous that there is now an argument that it would be wrong to claim Cael would never win at ISU, but somehow the same arguer is confident he would have won. Seems like truth for one would apply as truth for the other.

I'm making a big mistake jumping in here, but . . . .don't "wrong Cael would never win" and "confident he would have won" mean the same thing?