would you trade Iowa's staff straight up for isu's staff

[theIowaHawk]

I'm making a big mistake jumping in here, but . . . .don't "wrong Cael would never win" and "confident he would have won" mean the same thing?

Hmmm. I don't think so. It comes down to varying levels of confidence, such as:

"I am confident Cael would have won a title at ISU" vs. "Cael may have won while at ISU" and comapred with:
"Cael would never have won at ISU" vs. "I saw no evidence that Cael would have won at ISU."

Maybe they do mean the same, but I don't think so. Multiple posters in this thread have now said that he would have. Most of us have no idea whether he would have, but we look to evidence (hindsight) to make a guess. My point has always been to find out what evidence those posters used to make their claim.

We all know what they actually base it on - his tenure at PSU. It just surprises me, because those all appear to be PSU posters who I'd think would be very proud that PSU got him over the hump.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Getting the #1p4p recruit clearly shows Carl was tearing ISU down. He never could have won there. I have seen the light.

Now you just deserve rolly-eyes. This is a straw man of the worst proportions. I never claimed he was tearing down ISU, I never said he wasn't improving his recruiting. We know who his recruits to ISU were - they wouldn't have won a title. That is tangible. What we don't know is who would have came in after, that would be speculation - but we can speculate based on history and his past results. Some want to speculate based on PSU results.

But, according to this logic every coach witha #1p4p is destined to win a title, right? Good news for Zeke!

 

[pablow]

Hmmm. I don't think so. It comes down to varying levels of confidence, such as:

"I am confident Cael would have won a title at ISU" vs. "Cael may have won while at ISU" and comapred with:
"Cael would never have won at ISU" vs. "I saw no evidence that Cael would have won at ISU."

Maybe they do mean the same, but I don't think so. Multiple posters in this thread have now said that he would have. Most of us have no idea whether he would have, but we look to evidence (hindsight) to make a guess. My point has always been to find out what evidence those posters used to make their claim.

We all know what they actually base it on - his tenure at PSU. It just surprises me, because those all appear to be PSU posters who I'd think would be very proud that PSU got him over the hump.

I was just interest in the grammar issue (double negative usually equals a positive), I don't really care about Cael what-ifs.

 

[mpfeiler]

Never

 

[theIowaHawk]

I was just interest in the grammar issue (double negative usually equals a positive), I don't really care about Cael what-ifs.

Oh, then you are probably right. My wife calls me a double negative all the time.

 

[Azchief32]

We all know what they actually base it on - his tenure at PSU. It just surprises me, because those all appear to be PSU posters who I'd think would be very proud that PSU got him over the hump.

Saw a post on FB that said "Cael would win a title at William&Mary if he wanted to." I responded along the lines of how come he didn't win one at ISU than? I get you...I don't know if he would have won one at ISU either but he helped build the team he took over as an assistant...Cael was still Cael at ISU...Olympic champ and 4 time undefeated but they never came close to getting the guys they are getting at PSU. 3/5 of their champs were PA boys...all five were top 10 P4P coming out of high school. I think 4/5 were all ready to go their true freshman year, the only one not being Cenzo who probably needed the RS year physically. Kemdawg was the same...had we not had Sorensen, I have no problem thinking Kemerer would have AA'd at 149 his true freshman year. For us, it's about getting guys like Turk or Wilcke to do big things. They do not have any Turks, Wilckes.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Saw a post on FB that said "Cael would win a title at William&Mary if he wanted to." I responded along the lines of how come he didn't win one at ISU than? I get you...I don't know if he would have won one at ISU either but he helped build the team he took over as an assistant...Cael was still Cael at ISU...Olympic champ and 4 time undefeated but they never came close to getting the guys they are getting at PSU. 3/5 of their champs were PA boys...all five were top 10 P4P coming out of high school. I think 4/5 were all ready to go their true freshman year, the only one not being Cenzo who probably needed the RS year physically. Kemdawg was the same...had we not had Sorensen, I have no problem thinking Kemerer would have AA'd at 149 his true freshman year. For us, it's about getting guys like Turk or Wilcke to do big things. They do not have any Turks, Wilckes.

Thats a bing-o!

 

[cidhawkeye]

Now you just deserve rolly-eyes. This is a straw man of the worst proportions. I never claimed he was tearing down ISU, I never said he wasn't improving his recruiting. We know who his recruits to ISU were - they wouldn't have won a title. That is tangible. What we don't know is who would have came in after, that would be speculation - but we can speculate based on history and his past results. Some want to speculate based on PSU results.

But, according to this logic every coach witha #1p4p is destined to win a title, right? Good news for Zeke!

Zeke is at a school with a history like ISU? I missed that. My contention is that Carl would have won at ISU, you ask for proof that would have happened. That obviously can't be proven. Things that lead me to believe he could have, top 5 finishes and within shouting distance of a title, adding a 20 point NCAA scorer, with Carl not going to PSU they wouldn't be who they are, that talent spreads out and possibly even signs with the fun factory that would be ISU. For most it wouldn't be as far fetched as you seem to believe. It however can't be proven that he would, the odds indicate that his chances of winning a title at ISU were better than not winning.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Zeke is at a school with a history like ISU? I missed that. My contention is that Carl would have won at ISU, you ask for proof that would have happened. That obviously can't be proven. Things that lead me to believe he could have, top 5 finishes and within shouting distance of a title, adding a 20 point NCAA scorer, with Carl not going to PSU they wouldn't be who they are, that talent spreads out and possibly even signs with the fun factory that would be ISU. For most it wouldn't be as far fetched as you seem to believe. It however can't be proven that he would, the odds indicate that his chances of winning a title at ISU were better than not winning.

So it isn't about #1P4P? Huh, I thought I took that directly from your post.

I didn't ask for proof it would have happened, I asked for the basis for that opinion, for the evidence that would support it.

And now you agree with what I've already posted: a Top 5 finish somehow is evidence of a future #1, and ignores those who actually place ahead of them. You again point to David Taylor - even though we know who else was in his class and the results, which wouldn't have won.

What do these factors show? That it was possible, in the future, with even more and better recruits, to have won.

But that isn't what you claim - you claim he would have won, and then double down saying that the odds "indicate" that his chances of winning were higher than not winning.

That is astounding. You are saying Vegas would have given him over 1:1 odds of winning, except Vegas is far more intelligent than that.

 

[Pennstate1985]

So it isn't about #1P4P? Huh, I thought I took that directly from your post.

I didn't ask for proof it would have happened, I asked for the basis for that opinion, for the evidence that would support it.

And now you agree with what I've already posted: a Top 5 finish somehow is evidence of a future #1, and ignores those who actually place ahead of them. You again point to David Taylor - even though we know who else was in his class and the results, which wouldn't have won.

What do these factors show? That it was possible, in the future, with even more and better recruits, to have won.

But that isn't what you claim - you claim he would have won, and then double down saying that the odds "indicate" that his chances of winning were higher than not winning.

That is astounding. You are saying Vegas would have given him over 1:1 odds of winning, except Vegas is far more intelligent than that.

At this point, if anyone said the pope was catholic, I think you'd disagree. It's not something to die over. Really it's not. There's plenty of room for different opinions on this issue, especially since we are talking about an event we'll never know what may have happened. Someone saying Cael would have won at ISU is just as likely to be right as someone saying he wouldn't. Just depends on the importance one places on certain factors. Peace.

 

[jerot]

At this point, if anyone said the pope was catholic, I think you'd disagree. It's not something to die over. Really it's not. There's plenty of room for different opinions on this issue, especially since we are talking about an event we'll never know what may have happened. Someone saying Cael would have won at ISU is just as likely to be right as someone saying he wouldn't. Just depends on the importance one places on certain factors. Peace.

It will never end.

 

[cidhawkeye]

So it isn't about #1P4P? Huh, I thought I took that directly from your post.

I didn't ask for proof it would have happened, I asked for the basis for that opinion, for the evidence that would support it.

And now you agree with what I've already posted: a Top 5 finish somehow is evidence of a future #1, and ignores those who actually place ahead of them. You again point to David Taylor - even though we know who else was in his class and the results, which wouldn't have won.

What do these factors show? That it was possible, in the future, with even more and better recruits, to have won.

But that isn't what you claim - you claim he would have won, and then double down saying that the odds "indicate" that his chances of winning were higher than not winning.

That is astounding. You are saying Vegas would have given him over 1:1 odds of winning, except Vegas is far more intelligent than that.

So you don't recognize sarcasm, will just put that on the list to remember. You continue to amaze with your approach. I gave you my basis as well. I also didn't ignore those that finished ahead of them. If Vegas were given the choice of Carl winning a national championship against never winning a championship at ISU my guess is winning would have been the favorite. Taylor is an example of what Carl was potentially building there. We can agree to disagree, you can continue to take the opposite side and digging in. Enjoy.

 

[theIowaHawk]

At this point, if anyone said the pope was catholic, I think you'd disagree. It's not something to die over. Really it's not. There's plenty of room for different opinions on this issue, especially since we are talking about an event we'll never know what may have happened. Someone saying Cael would have won at ISU is just as likely to be right as someone saying he wouldn't. Just depends on the importance one places on certain factors. Peace.

I'm fine with opinion, just admit it is your opinion, based largely on nothing - as I've pointed out.

And your conclusion, bolded above, is simply not true, because it wouldn't be "just as likely to be right," because one person - the latter - would have demonstrable, tangible and historic evidence supporting their position. The former would simply have unfounded speculation.

Which makes your contention ironic, because when applied to Dresser it is scoffed at - even though some of those factors you point to would apply similarly.

And your very first facetious point is on the wrong side. YOU would be the one disputing the Pope being Catholic. There is tangible evidence that he is, just as there is tangible evidence for everything I've argued. You, sir, are the one arguing that the Pope would have likely, at some point, have become Buddhist, with no tangible evidence behind that claim.

 

[theIowaHawk]

It is funny, because in order to accept the claim of cid/1985/etc, they would have had to been on HR Wrestling forum claiming that Cael was going to win a championship - back when Iowa was winning championships.

I don't remember any posts from any of you making that claim at the time.

Of course those claims only arose after years of PSU success.

 

[Flying_Tiger]

I remember posts back then by fans with a similar faulty thought process saying definitively Cael wouldn't win at Penn State because he couldn't win at ISU; I remember fans saying definitively he couldn't win without ISU transfers, I remember fans saying definitively he couldn't win once Taylor and Ruth graduated. Seems to me the track record of people like you that make these definitive statements about future events have been continuously proven wrong when it comes to Cael.

 

[lookleft goright]

Saw a post on FB that said "Cael would win a title at William&Mary if he wanted to." I responded along the lines of how come he didn't win one at ISU than? I get you...I don't know if he would have won one at ISU either but he helped build the team he took over as an assistant...Cael was still Cael at ISU...Olympic champ and 4 time undefeated but they never came close to getting the guys they are getting at PSU. 3/5 of their champs were PA boys...all five were top 10 P4P coming out of high school. I think 4/5 were all ready to go their true freshman year, the only one not being Cenzo who probably needed the RS year physically. Kemdawg was the same...had we not had Sorensen, I have no problem thinking Kemerer would have AA'd at 149 his true freshman year. For us, it's about getting guys like Turk or Wilcke to do big things. They do not have any Turks, Wilckes.

I think PSU has Turks and Wilckes, they just aren't making the starting line up.

 

[theIowaHawk]

I remember posts by fans with a similar faulty thought process saying definitively Cael wouldn't win at Penn State because he couldn't win at ISU; I remember fans saying definitively he couldn't win without ISU transfers, I remember fans saying definitively he couldn't win once Taylor and Ruth graduated. Seems to me the track record of people like you that make these definitive statements about future events have been continuously proven wrong when it comes to Cael.

If you are talking to me, you really need to read the posts.

I have never made a definitive statement, the posters I've argued with have. Theirs have been the definition of definitive - "Cael would have won a title at ISU."

And I'm not sure why you are taking this as an attack on Cael of PSU. Cael agrees with me, he has basically admitted as much after his move, his move was - with hindsight - an absolutely brilliant, ground-altering move for wrestling. His success at PSU has been astounding.

But you unwittingly further my point - people were claiming at the time that he wouldn't win at ISU. Now some are claiming they believed he would've all along.

 

[lookleft goright]

Why I am in this conversation is beyond me, but here it goes.

I have looked at the recruits that Jackson was getting at ISU and it is impressive. That leads me to believe that Cael could have gotten the same recruits or better. Without PSU to suck up all the talent, it seems logical that he could have won a few titles at ISU. Would he have the makings of a dynasty, that should really be the argument.

Of course, before Gable took over at Iowa, the Hawks weren't very respected or powerful. It is amazing how the right person (Gable) can turn things around. Could Cael have done that again at ISU? I do not know. Would he have won some titles - I certainly think so. For goodness sake, Minny won some and that was unheard of before JRob went up there.

 

[Azchief32]

I think PSU has Turks and Wilckes, they just aren't making the starting line up.

My point.