‘Iowa is a football school’ is not an excuse

[tweeterhawk]

It is possible to have a strong basketball program that competes for regular season conference titles and plays on the second weekend of the NCAA tournament.

Never, ever accept the excuse that because Iowa football does well men’s basketball can’t as well. A good coach can recruit the talent, make Iowa basketball exciting again and put butts in the seats.

 

[icwesthawk]

Ok, won't ever accept the excuse that we are a football school

 

[onlyTheObvious]

Power 5 school. You get 5-6 years to make sweet 16 and if you don't you are fired.

You can reload a program darn quick in this era of college sports.

 

[RagnarLothbrok]

It is possible to have a strong basketball program that competes for regular season conference titles and plays on the second weekend of the NCAA tournament.

Never, ever accept the excuse that because Iowa football does well men’s basketball can’t as well. A good coach can recruit the talent, make Iowa basketball exciting again and put butts in the seats.

It’s all about NIL. Get some better athletes in the program who can actually play a little defense and you might get your wish.

 

[Warthog99]

It’s all about NIL. Get some better athletes in the program who can actually play a little defense and you might get your wish.

So , what you are saying is, we need a new coach.

 

[Buffalo43]

Actually it is a Women's Basketball School at the moment

 

[RagnarLothbrok]

So , what you are saying is, we need a new coach.

I guess? If Fran can’t get better athletes with NIL and can’t get his team to play better defense, then absolutely.

I think just about everyone is tired of tall, lanky, unathletic “shooters” filling up the majority of the roster. Especially the ones who are soft and lazy on defense. Just too many guys like that.

 

[the notorious r.d.m.]

Here's where I'm standing at this point: Should the Iowa fanbase just expect a Sweet 16 appearance despite only 8000 people showing up consistently? Or should the Iowa fanbase sellout every home game and help will the team to a good enough record to make the tourney again?

It sucks Iowa appears to sliding. But if we can only expect a half-filled Carver the rest of the season then Iowa will probably be dropping home games they shouldn't and thus probably not make the tourney. It's a negative feedback loop. If there's no NIL to be had and sellouts no longer appear feasible then what incentive is there for a big name to transfer in? Then I suppose a coaching change is in order. But Iowa doesn't have the financial backing of say, Iowa State. Can Iowa overhaul their program the way Iowa State did 3 years ago without whale donors?

 

[onlyTheObvious]

Here's where I'm standing at this point: Should the Iowa fanbase just expect a Sweet 16 appearance despite only 8000 people showing up consistently? Or should the Iowa fanbase sellout every home game and help will the team to a good enough record to make the tourney again?

It sucks Iowa appears to sliding. But if we can only expect a half-filled Carver the rest of the season then Iowa will probably be dropping home games they shouldn't and thus probably not make the tourney. It's a negative feedback loop. If there's no NIL to be had and sellouts no longer appear feasible then what incentive is there for a big name to transfer in? Then I suppose a coaching change is in order. But Iowa doesn't have the financial backing of say, Iowa State. Can Iowa overhaul their program the way Iowa State did 3 years ago without whale donors?

I don’t think Fans build programs.

You get good and the butts will get in the seats.

 

[Slim45]

I guess? If Fran can’t get better athletes with NIL and can’t get his team to play better defense, then absolutely.

I think just about everyone is tired of tall, lanky, unathletic “shooters” filling up the majority of the roster. Especially the ones who are soft and lazy on defense. Just too many guys like that.

Definitely correct. We have 3 guys starting that should be a 4. Which means 2 guys are playing out of position. Frans “positionless” basketball is a fantasy in his own mind that doesn’t work in the real world. Guards rule the college game today and Fran has went to the total opposite end of the spectrum by playing 1 guard and 4 forwards. Can’t make this shit up!

 

[Ronman]

I've never heard anyone ever make the excuse that Iowa is a football school, with the possible exception of Steve Alford. Certainly not McCaffery and why would he? There are a lot of schools in the B1G and throughout the nation that would love to have the success our basketball programs has achieved. I agree that our fanbase leaves something to be desired, but if you can't come out to see the National POY (should have been twice) and studs like the Murray brothers, Jok, Uthoff, White, etc, then you are simply missing the boat. Yes, the results in the tournament have been disappointing, but Iowa plays a fun brand of basketball that wins twenty plus games a year and they do it with great young men.

 

[the notorious r.d.m.]

I don’t think Fans build programs.

You get good and the butts will get in the seats.

Fair point. But is a Sweet 16 appearance the only marker of a good team?

 

[MarkRules]

Fair point. But is a Sweet 16 appearance the only marker of a good team?

Good question and I was at the BIg Tourney Title two years and it was awesome. But:

Yes, at some point a Sweet 16 appearance becomes the only marker for a good program..

I don’t think anybody could name a good program that has not been to a Sweet 16 in the last 14 years.

 

[CyberJJ]

Definitely correct. We have 3 guys starting that should be a 4. Which means 2 guys are playing out of position. Frans “positionless” basketball is a fantasy in his own mind that doesn’t work in the real world. Guards rule the college game today and Fran has went to the total opposite end of the spectrum by playing 1 guard and 4 forwards. Can’t make this shit up!

Who are the three starting that "should be" a 4? Likely true for Krikke and Freeman, but show me another--certainly not McCaffery nor Sandfort who neither have the physicalness nor mentality to play there.

 

[TheGuy9]

Who are the three starting that "should be" a 4? Likely true for Krikke and Freeman, but show me another--certainly not McCaffery nor Sandfort who neither have the physicalness nor mentality to play there.

Hmmm. Sandfort is the leading rebounder and second leading scorer on the team and has played pretty well around the basket. Why do you feel he doesn't have the physicalness and mentality to play the 4. His stats actually say otherwise.

 

[CyberJJ]

Hmmm. Sandfort is the leading rebounder and second leading scorer on the team and has played pretty well around the basket. Why do you feel he doesn't have the physicalness and mentality to play the 4. His stats actually say otherwise.

Being the best rebounder on this team doesn't necessarily make you a good rebounder. Sandfort plays the three, but his lack of defensive quickness keeps him from playing the two that his offensive game seems to prefer. I have seen him overwhelmed by larger fours in some games. Don't get me wrong, as he actually battles under the bucket, unlike McCaffery.

 

[Slim45]

Who are the three starting that "should be" a 4? Likely true for Krikke and Freeman, but show me another--certainly not McCaffery nor Sandfort who neither have the physicalness nor mentality to play there.

Tell me another 6’9” starting 3 man in college basketball. Or better yet, a 6’7” starting 2. Frans lineups are F’d, there’s a reason he’s the only coach in college basketball that uses lineups like that. It’s idiotic and doesn’t work.

 

[the notorious r.d.m.]

Good question and I was at the BIg Tourney Title two years and it was awesome. But:

Yes, at some point a Sweet 16 appearance becomes the only marker for a good program..

I don’t think anybody could name a good program that has not been to a Sweet 16 in the last 14 years.

I can agree with that.

Here's an approximation of who Iowa stands with in March in terms of success in the past ~30 years:

St John's
Arizona State
California
Temple
Wake Forest
Minnesota

These are teams that have similar tourney appearances (minus Minnesota) and similar Sweet 16 droughts. What does this say about Iowa? Probably that they should have made more Sweet 16s in the past 30 years.

I wish I had time to parcel thru the data of what a Sweet 16 appearance can do for attendance. The NCAA does a great of compiling home attendance info every season but it's a lot to filter and organize.

 

[amahawk]

Good question and I was at the BIg Tourney Title two years and it was awesome. But:

Yes, at some point a Sweet 16 appearance becomes the only marker for a good program..

I don’t think anybody could name a good program that has not been to a Sweet 16 in the last 14 years.

I would like to see a terrific 32!

 

[SDHawkDoc]

I guess? If Fran can’t get better athletes with NIL and can’t get his team to play better defense, then absolutely.

I think just about everyone is tired of tall, lanky, unathletic “shooters” filling up the majority of the roster. Especially the ones who are soft and lazy on defense. Just too many guys like that.

More athletic guards.

In all of Fran's time at Iowa he's been lacking in having multiple athletic backcourt players on any given years roster.
I've been ready for a change for several years now. The first thing that needs to happen with the next coach is having athletic backcourts with guys who are built like modern high level D-1 guards at the 1 and 2 spots who play defense and look like they've been in the weight room more than just passing through on their way out of the gym.
There are always going to be the lanky, somewhat slow and not particularly strong Iowa high schoolers on the roster who are there for shooting. Fine to have a couple of them per season. But not what you are going to build your team around for success in the post season. And not to have 1/4 to 1/3 of your roster made of up those type of players.

 

[RagnarLothbrok]

More athletic guards.

In all of Fran's time at Iowa he's been lacking in having multiple athletic backcourt players on any given years roster.
I've been ready for a change for several years now. The first thing that needs to happen with the next coach is having athletic backcourts with guys who are built like modern high level D-1 guards at the 1 and 2 spots who play defense and look like they've been in the weight room more than just passing through on their way out of the gym.
There are always going to be the lanky, somewhat slow and not particularly strong Iowa high schoolers on the roster who are there for shooting. Fine to have a couple of them per season. But not what you are going to build your team around for success in the post season. And not to have 1/4 to 1/3 of your roster made of up those type of players.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Gotta have guards to compete at this level. I also agree having a couple tall lanky shooters is a good thing but not for a good chunk of the roster.

 

[dtripp26]

Good question and I was at the BIg Tourney Title two years and it was awesome. But:

Yes, at some point a Sweet 16 appearance becomes the only marker for a good program..

I don’t think anybody could name a good program that has not been to a Sweet 16 in the last 14 years.

Well Iowa hasn't been to a Sweet 16 in 24 years and has only been to 5 since 1980. Frankly, the Iowa is basketball program is not nearly as good as many people like to think it is.

Considering the lack of fan support, an arena which many consider to be antiquated and lack of financial support Fran has probably exceeded expectations.

 

[eyesofhawk]

It’s all about NIL. Get some better athletes in the program who can actually play a little defense and you might get your wish.

The lack of defense comes down to coaching. It hasn't been 14 years worth of guys that are incapable of defending

 

[RocknRollface]

Who are the three starting that "should be" a 4? Likely true for Krikke and Freeman, but show me another--certainly not McCaffery nor Sandfort who neither have the physicalness nor mentality to play there.

The 4 is a mostly perimiter position circa about 10 years ago.

Patrick doesn't have the "physicalness" nor mentality to play any position in the big ten but his size and quickness is that of a 4.

Sandfort is a tweener who is too slow to play anywhere except the 4. He lacks athleticism and strength but not mentality or physicality.

 

[RocknRollface]

Tell me another 6’9” starting 3 man in college basketball. Or better yet, a 6’7” starting 2. Frans lineups are F’d, there’s a reason he’s the only coach in college basketball that uses lineups like that. It’s idiotic and doesn’t work.

Exactly, guys who are 6'9 and can play the 3 are very few and far between and are one and done nba draft picks.

 

[RocknRollface]

More athletic guards.

In all of Fran's time at Iowa he's been lacking in having multiple athletic backcourt players on any given years roster.
I've been ready for a change for several years now. The first thing that needs to happen with the next coach is having athletic backcourts with guys who are built like modern high level D-1 guards at the 1 and 2 spots who play defense and look like they've been in the weight room more than just passing through on their way out of the gym.
There are always going to be the lanky, somewhat slow and not particularly strong Iowa high schoolers on the roster who are there for shooting. Fine to have a couple of them per season. But not what you are going to build your team around for success in the post season. And not to have 1/4 to 1/3 of your roster made of up those type of players.

Fran only has 4 guards on this whole roster.

None of them are unathletic but he won't play more than 1 or 2 at a time when everyone else plays 3 or 4 guards at a time.

Frans entire lack of success in the tournament really comes down to the fact that he recruits too many bigs and not enough guards and thus plays too many bigs and not enough guards.

 

[ShonnDeereGreene]

The current roster composition is certainly strange. It’s one thing to completely abandon defense if you have a high powered offensive team. Some years I do think Fran has constructed that. But this year he certainly has not. It’s a collection of guys all playing out of position combined with a relatively poor shooting team.

 

[Macbride79]

Fair point. But is a Sweet 16 appearance the only marker of a good team?

Since the late 1970s when the NCAA tournament expanded to multiple teams per conference, success in the tournament has defined success for the program.

Minimum of making a run in the NCAA tournament is to make it to the Sweet 16. Even blue blood programs count their Sweet 16 appearances.

Iowa has not made a Sweet 16 appearance in the 21st century. Given that 68 of the 80 teams in power conferences (include Big East in basketball) have made it to the Sweet 16 this century, it is a big deal to have NOT made it — an albatross over the Iowa men’s basketball program.

A coach at a power conference school for 14 years without making a tournament run doesn’t qualify as a success.

 

[CyberJJ]

Tell me another 6’9” starting 3 man in college basketball. Or better yet, a 6’7” starting 2. Frans lineups are F’d, there’s a reason he’s the only coach in college basketball that uses lineups like that. It’s idiotic and doesn’t work.

I didn’t say he should be the starting 3, just that the way he plays it is a more natural position for him than the 4. He wants to be more of a perimeter player and slash for off balance floaters.

Sandfort is better suited for the three, but offensively his game is better suited gof the perimeter than under the bucket. Haliburton at Isu was a 6’5” PG. Height doesn’t define the position.

 

[Slim45]

I didn’t say he should be the starting 3, just that the way he plays it is a more natural position for him than the 4. He wants to be more of a perimeter player and slash for off balance floaters.

Sandfort is better suited for the three, but offensively his game is better suited gof the perimeter than under the bucket. Haliburton at Isu was a 6’5” PG. Height doesn’t define the position.

No it doesn’t define it, but it’s a pretty damn good indicator. There are ways a coach can manipulate lineups and have 4’s playing the 5 or the 3 depending on matchups. Fran isn’t doing that, he’s just playing multiple guys, together, out of position because he refuses to put his son on the bench where he belongs.

 

[CyberJJ]

No it doesn’t define it, but it’s a pretty damn good indicator. There are ways a coach can manipulate lineups and have 4’s playing the 5 or the 3 depending on matchups. Fran isn’t doing that, he’s just playing multiple guys, together, out of position because he refuses to put his son on the bench where he belongs.

I think we might actually be in violent agreement here!

 

[sm_hawkeye]

Hmmm. Sandfort is the leading rebounder and second leading scorer on the team and has played pretty well around the basket. Why do you feel he doesn't have the physicalness and mentality to play the 4. His stats actually say otherwise.

Played well around the basket? What are we talking about. The occasional tap in rebound or layup? Because its certainly not from isolating a defender and putting a post move together. I would not put his 5.9 rebounds per game as some mark of excellence at the 4 position. It just speaks more about how the overall team doesn't do a good enough job focusing on fundamentals.

His average scoring isn't bad but most of the scoring is coming from the same way that he did at the 3. Often against good teams, the scoring and the 5.9 rebounds is not making up for the points he's giving up on the defensive side. I mean just take a look at his shot blocking average. And Fran has already realized that and adjusted the starting lineup, moving him back to 3.

He's a good shooter but he very rarely is able to manufacture an open look on his own, or doesn't hit too many with defense that closes in on him. He does alright at the 3, but just doesn't have the interior defense ability for the 4. Most were hoping for more points from him his junior season.

 

[RocknRollface]

Played well around the basket? What are we talking about. The occasional tap in rebound or layup? Because its certainly not from isolating a defender and putting a post move together. I would not put his 5.9 rebounds per game as some mark of excellence at the 4 position. It just speaks more about how the overall team doesn't do a good enough job focusing on fundamentals.

His average scoring isn't bad but most of the scoring is coming from the same way that he did at the 3. Often against good teams, the scoring and the 5.9 rebounds is not making up for the points he's giving up on the defensive side. I mean just take a look at his shot blocking average. And Fran has already realized that and adjusted the starting lineup, moving him back to 3.

He's a good shooter but he very rarely is able to manufacture an open look on his own, or doesn't hit too many with defense that closes in on him. He does alright at the 3, but just doesn't have the interior defense ability for the 4. Most were hoping for more points from him his junior season.

The 4 is mostly a perimiter position.

Paytons offense isn't going to change regardless of what position you call him, he's a spot up shooter. He needs to he paired with guys who can penetrate and kick out.

Most offense in general comes from the outside in facing the basket.

Yes, Sandfort isn't athletic enough to contest shots off of offensive rebounds but most of the points he gives up are inability to defend on the perimeter, meaning he struggles to stay in front of most 4s off the dribble. That doesn't get better moving him to the 3.

It doesn't get that much worse either though because you're going to end up switching on a large percentage of possessions anyway.

The real problem is you can not have Sandfort, Patrick and Krikke on the floor together (no matter who plays where) and stop any high mahor team from scoring at will.

 

[Rambler Hawk]

More athletic guards.

In all of Fran's time at Iowa he's been lacking in having multiple athletic backcourt players on any given years roster.
I've been ready for a change for several years now. The first thing that needs to happen with the next coach is having athletic backcourts with guys who are built like modern high level D-1 guards at the 1 and 2 spots who play defense and look like they've been in the weight room more than just passing through on their way out of the gym.
There are always going to be the lanky, somewhat slow and not particularly strong Iowa high schoolers on the roster who are there for shooting. Fine to have a couple of them per season. But not what you are going to build your team around for success in the post season. And not to have 1/4 to 1/3 of your roster made of up those type of players.

Spot on post…👍

 

[hawk224]

Well Iowa hasn't been to a Sweet 16 in 24 years and has only been to 5 since 1980. Frankly, the Iowa is basketball program is not nearly as good as many people like to think it is.

Considering the lack of fan support, an arena which many consider to be antiquated and lack of financial support Fran has probably exceeded expectations.

This is 100% correct. I’d like to see Iowa make some Sweet 16s as much as anyone, but getting there is more complicated than many fans want to believe. At the same time, that’s not an excuse to not make some changes

 

[SDHawkDoc]

The 4 is mostly a perimiter position.

Paytons offense isn't going to change regardless of what position you call him, he's a spot up shooter. He needs to he paired with guys who can penetrate and kick out.

Most offense in general comes from the outside in facing the basket.

Yes, Sandfort isn't athletic enough to contest shots off of offensive rebounds but most of the points he gives up are inability to defend on the perimeter, meaning he struggles to stay in front of most 4s off the dribble. That doesn't get better moving him to the 3.

It doesn't get that much worse either though because you're going to end up switching on a large percentage of possessions anyway.

The real problem is you can not have Sandfort, Patrick and Krikke on the floor together (no matter who plays where) and stop any high mahor team from scoring at will.

Exactly.
If you want to have a team that plays decent defense having 3 slow, lanky guys on the floor at the same time isn't the way to go. Ideally you'd only have one player like that on the floor most of the time and he'd better be hitting from 3.

 

[onlyTheObvious]

Fair point. But is a Sweet 16 appearance the only marker of a good team?

It’s not asking too much to make it once every 5 or 6 years.

16x6 = 96 slots. Just grabbing one isn’t a lot to ask for at a school that pulls in a hundred million dollars a year in revenue.

Takes 6 wins to win a national title but winning 2 games gets you in sweet 16 and that is called “making a run”. A “run” in basketball is making 1/3 of the way to the finish. Like running 1 mile of a 5K and quitting and people saying “you gave it a good run”.

 

[jasonrann]

It's especially not an excuse when it isn't a football school. If anything, it's a wrestling school.

 

[ClarindaA's]

Fair point. But is a Sweet 16 appearance the only marker of a good team?

Over five years, yes