1 in 16 Women's first experience was rape

[BelemNole]

Appreciate the response. How does this translate this if you are sending a son off to college though exactly? If you have any physical contact with a female who is who has had drinks, you are at risk of being a rapist, and her of being raped. Is that correct?

I believe in all these things in a macro sense...but translating them into actual "rules for living" is pretty damn hard.

Yes, that is correct. Just as correct as it is for anyone else. Risky behavior is just that - risky. Having sex without protection is risky, yet people keep doing it. I will advise him against that as well. I hope he takes that advice as well. In the end all I can do is hope that he makes good decisions based on how we raised him. I'll worry more about my daughter, because we know that there are a large number of young men out there that see consent as something to work around.

 

[FSU_UCLA]

Thanks for your honesty UCLA. This does seem to be where this discussion has been going for some time now, but people seem loathe to come out and say it like you have. If that is the new standard, I wish more advocates would be more forthcoming about that position. That any time the other party has had any alcohol, you are potentially engaging in rape to have sex with them.

Huh, I haven’t noticed any reticence on the topic in my experiences with these discussions, but UCLA does tend to be fairly active and energetic about these things.

It’s also just not a drinking culture here. Almost every year while I was in grad school, the undergrads vetoed the grad students’ proposal for an on-campus bar. Now...marijuana, man, the amount of THC that UCLA students are ingesting is remarkable.

 

[Ban Meat]

I lead consent discussions on-campus, and one of the key points is “do not have sex with anybody if you are under the influence or if they are.” The gender doesn’t matter; the message is just don’t do it.

"How much" under the influence? There are definitely some gray areas where alcohol and consent are concerned, but I don't think that should eliminate fun.

Do you talk to them about risk taking and adult decision making?

Valuation of risk is subjective.

 

[Urohawk]

This enthusiastic consent is an interesting idea. I don't see it as remotely practical. Rates of sex are declining across our population in general. It's especially worse among younger generations and I can see why the culture has created it.

1. Tinder- It's basically a way for people to hook up for sex but there is very little attempt to create a relationship. It circumvents the natural biology we have developed and the social norms of dating to find a mate. In the old days women would have sex with men they found worthy of giving it up to. Now it's a put out or get shut out. Don't have sex and the men will just move on. The competition of dating has broken down. I think that really hurts women over men.

2. Enthusiast consent- what do you do with sexual disorders, especially in women? There is plenty of scientific data from women who lack an interest or desire for sex, but if they begin to actually have sex they become aroused and enjoy it. They are never going to enthusiastically consent but they have no regret, distress, etc about their sexual encounter.

3. Married people- there are a ton of people with mismatched sex drives. There is a ton of coercion or bargaining. "You get the garage cleaned and I'll make it worth your while". Not enthusiastic. "I'm tired" transforms into good sex for both after some coercion. Under the enthusiastic consent idea, there is a ton of raping going on.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...d-you-have-sex-your-spouse-when-you-dont-want

4. Alcohol- I'm assaulting my wife and shes assaulting me, ALL THE TIME!

5. Finally the threat of retribution- look rape is rape. When someone says no it means no. However, the me too movement has done a lot of harm. People cant be destroyed 20+ years later for things that are simply alleged or if they felt uncomfortable about something. We have to have a better process. I don't know what that is but we have to have some difficult conversations to sort it out as a society.

 

[BelemNole]

This enthusiastic consent is an interesting idea. I don't see it as remotely practical. Rates of sex are declining across our population in general. It's especially worse among younger generations and I can see why the culture has created it.

1. Tinder- It's basically a way for people to hook up for sex but there is very little attempt to create a relationship. It circumvents the natural biology we have developed and the social norms of dating to find a mate. In the old days women would have sex with men they found worthy of giving it up to. Now it's a put out or get shut out. Don't have sex and the men will just move on. The competition of dating has broken down. I think that really hurts women over men.

2. Enthusiast consent- what do you do with sexual disorders, especially in women? There is plenty of scientific data from women who lack an interest or desire for sex, but if they begin to actually have sex they become aroused and enjoy it. They are never going to enthusiastically consent but they have no regret, distress, etc about their sexual encounter.

3. Married people- there are a ton of people with mismatched sex drives. There is a ton of coercion or bargaining. "You get the garage cleaned and I'll make it worth your while". Not enthusiastic. "I'm tired" transforms into good sex for both after some coercion. Under the enthusiastic consent idea, there is a ton of raping going on.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...d-you-have-sex-your-spouse-when-you-dont-want

4. Alcohol- I'm assaulting my wife and shes assaulting me, ALL THE TIME!

5. Finally the threat of retribution- look rape is rape. When someone says no it means no. However, the me too movement has done a lot of harm. People cant be destroyed 20+ years later for things that are simply alleged or if they felt uncomfortable about something. We have to have a better process. I don't know what that is but we have to have some difficult conversations to sort it out as a society.

#2 I'd like to see that data, because it sounds like justification for some dinosaur beliefs.
#3 Disagree with this. My wife and I have fairly different drives, but I'd rather not do it than do it with a disinterested partner. Yes, sometimes in a long marriage you need to "remember to do it" but that's different than doing it when you don't want to.
#4 It's clear that people drink too much here.

 

[Hawki97]

• Woman flirts with man.
• Man responds by asking her out and she says she's not interested.
• Man drops it and after a while woman says, "Why'd you give up? Not interested means keep trying!"
• Man keeps at it and eventually they go out. After a couple drinks they make out. Over the clothes second base happens and she smiles and pulls his hand away and says "Good things come to those who wait." They stop everything and go their separate ways.
• Couple days pass and man falls asleep one night and wakes up mid-beej from woman after roommates let her in. Upon completion he realizes she's wasted when she passes out next to him. Wakes up the next day and she thanks him for great night.
• They go out a couple more times.
• One night, before their date and both sober, man receives text from woman and says she can't wait to f him tonight. They proceed to go out, have some drinks, and f all night.
• F'ing continues both sober and drunk for a few weeks.
• Man decides he wants to move on and tells woman. She's upset and calls foul claiming he used her and maybe thinks she was assaulted.
• Man saves text messages and cops thankfully don't pursue.

I know this sounds a little like Law & Order meets Penthouse Letters, but I know someone that this basically happen to. Not sure based on this thread who was the bad guy / girl. Maybe both? Mixed messages, game playing, alcohol, hormones...it's not a simple thing to navigate.

 

[hawkifann]

Girl: I don’t know if we should go that far, smiling...
Guy: I agree... we’re connecting so well & this may sound crazy, but I feel like we’ve known each other for years.
Girl: ok
...
Girl regrets it the next morning.. is that coercion?

Not nearly enough context....but let's be real, even with regular partners/spouses, there's some amount of one side really wanting to do it and one side not and the one that wants to continues with the advances, maybe pouts a little bit or gets angry and the other person acquiesces because it's just easier to let it happen than to continue to deal with the BS.

It's not the classic example of rape....and maybe it's not technically rape, but it ain't great.

 

[Urohawk]

#2 I'd like to see that data, because it sounds like justification for some dinosaur beliefs.
#3 Disagree with this. My wife and I have fairly different drives, but I'd rather not do it than do it with a disinterested partner. Yes, sometimes in a long marriage you need to "remember to do it" but that's different than doing it when you don't want to.
#4 It's clear that people drink too much here.

#2- www.pubmed.gov if you want to search the papers See the link I have from a female psychologist. I teach the lectures on sexual dysfunction to the med students. About 1/3 of women have some form of sexual disorder (hypoactive sexual desire disorder, sexual arousal disorder, orgasmic disorder, disorders of sexual pain.). A subgroup of them have issues getting going but can be aroused as the sexual act continues. Hardly enthusiastic consent.

#3- I also specialize in ED. Can't tell you the number of times I see #3 happen. Most of the time its married people in the 50+ age range. He wants his ED fixed. She says she couldn't care less about it. If they never had sex again she'd be fine. She then says, "He likes it, so if it makes him happy, I'll do it." That's hardly enthusiastic consent.

 

[Ban Meat]

This enthusiastic consent is an interesting idea. I don't see it as remotely practical. Rates of sex are declining across our population in general. It's especially worse among younger generations and I can see why the culture has created it.

1. Tinder- It's basically a way for people to hook up for sex but there is very little attempt to create a relationship. It circumvents the natural biology we have developed and the social norms of dating to find a mate. In the old days women would have sex with men they found worthy of giving it up to. Now it's a put out or get shut out. Don't have sex and the men will just move on. The competition of dating has broken down. I think that really hurts women over men.

I believe I read (think it was academic in nature) that something like 20% of the men get the top 80% of women to choose from on tinder.

So women are still picky, even in a hookup culture, but the problem with a hookup culture is that the men have little incentive to stay-put. And so, hook-up culture isn't very satisfying, especially for women that want a consistent relationship.

 

[FSU_UCLA]

"How much" under the influence? There are definitely some gray areas where alcohol and consent are concerned, but I don't think that should eliminate fun.

Do you talk to them about risk taking and adult decision making?

Valuation of risk is subjective.

I typically say something like “if you wouldn’t be comfortable with either of you being pulled over by a cop and being asked to take a breathalyzer given how much you’ve had to drink, then you definitely should not be having sex.”

We talk risk taking and decision making all the time.

 

[FSU_UCLA]

Tinder is explicitly a hook-up app. It’s explicitly for casual NSA sex. There are lots of other apps that are designed for different purposes: Bumble, OkCupid, Hinge, Coffee Meets Bagel, etc.

In my work, women seem to enjoy Tinder a lot more than men.

 

[FSU_UCLA]

#2- www.pubmed.gov if you want to search the papers See the link I have from a female psychologist. I teach the lectures on sexual dysfunction to the med students. About 1/3 of women have some form of sexual disorder (hypoactive sexual desire disorder, sexual arousal disorder, orgasmic disorder, disorders of sexual pain.). A subgroup of them have issues getting going but can be aroused as the sexual act continues. Hardly enthusiastic consent.

#3- I also specialize in ED. Can't tell you the number of times I see #3 happen. Most of the time its married people in the 50+ age range. He wants his ED fixed. She says she couldn't care less about it. If they never had sex again she'd be fine. She then says, "He likes it, so if it makes him happy, I'll do it." That's hardly enthusiastic consent.

You seem to be conflating enthusiastic consent with physiological arousal and response.

 

[Ban Meat]

Tinder is explicitly a hook-up app. It’s explicitly for casual NSA sex. There are lots of other apps that are designed for different purposes: Bumble, OkCupid, Hinge, Coffee Meets Bagel, etc.

In my work, women seem to enjoy Tinder a lot more than men.

Designed that way, although it seems to be 50/50 in terms of usage between serious & hookup dating from what I can tell.

I significant number of women seem to use it for attention I've been noticing. (re-directs to instagram profiles and whatnot)

Actually a good amount of sex-work on there as well. Not to mention the sugar-baby crowd.

I think anymore we have quite a few monogamous types that are probably bit unsatisfied by hook-up culture but contend with it just because it looks OK on paper and it seems that's what everybody else is doing.

 

[Nole Lou]

Huh, I haven’t noticed any reticence on the topic in my experiences with these discussions, but UCLA does tend to be fairly active and energetic about these things.

It’s also just not a drinking culture here. Almost every year while I was in grad school, the undergrads vetoed the grad students’ proposal for an on-campus bar. Now...marijuana, man, the amount of THC that UCLA students are ingesting is remarkable.

I'm frankly surprised that women are totally on board with the premise of a world where a guy will not hook up with them if they've had a drink or smoked a joint, but that would be a safer world.

 

[Ban Meat]

I'm frankly surprised that women are totally on board with the premise of a world where a guy will not hook up with them if they've had a drink or smoked a joint, but that would be a safer world.

I don't think most people think that way. We're probably being overly cautious. Society is overly cautious about a lot of things, anymore.

And it's subjective... the value you place on what is gained, what is lost. But I think we're probably overly-cautious and not as happy as we could be.

There is a lot of gray, subjective stuff when it comes to consent -- what might be considered assault, what might not be.

I get the feeling that we're not doing a good job acknowledging and factoring in these complexities into the conversation we're having around the issue. Too often the conversation is reduced to ferreting out anything that might be considered assault and then trying to religiously avoid it.

 

[BelemNole]

I'm frankly surprised that women are totally on board with the premise of a world where a guy will not hook up with them if they've had a drink or smoked a joint, but that would be a safer world.

I don't think anyone has made the argument that a single drink is the limit.

 

[TarponSpringsNole]

Toxic masculinity.

Sarcasm, correct?

 

[The Tradition]

Well...it has been a thing.

Is that a promise or a threat?

 

[naturalmwa]

Is that a promise or a threat?

For the life of me I can’t believe we passed a constitutional amendment to outlaw booze. It gives me hope that we can pass anything.

 

[biggreydogs]

That’s a lot of women who should have their right to an abortion protected. Please vote that way if you respect the ladies. Oh, and stop raping them.

Less than 1% but keep justifying

 

[naturalmwa]

Less than 1% but keep justifying

You are bad at math and reading comprehension. The numbers are all in the OP.

Get an avatar

 

[biggreydogs]

You are bad at math and reading comprehension. The numbers are all in the OP.

Get an avatar

Google justified abortion due to rape.

 

[biggreydogs]

You are bad at math and reading comprehension. The numbers are all in the OP.

Get an avatar

Oh R stands for right all the time

 

[naturalmwa]

Google justified abortion due to rape.

Here is where you misunderstand. All those women who were assaulted deserve to have the right protected. It’s their choice on how to proceed. The number that utilize the right is immaterial.

Oh R stands for right all the time

Rs very rarely stand for rights or what’s right, however you intended that.

 

[FSU_UCLA]

I'm frankly surprised that women are totally on board with the premise of a world where a guy will not hook up with them if they've had a drink or smoked a joint, but that would be a safer world.

The women with whom I speak are generally more invested in protecting themselves and their friends from being assaulted than they are hooking up. Regardless, I think they also know that they will always be able to find a guy to hook up with regardless of whether they have been drinking.

 

[FSU_UCLA]

Sarcasm, correct?

Not even a little. Deathly serious.

 

[biggreydogs]

Here is where you misunderstand. All those women who were assaulted deserve to have the right protected. It’s their choice on how to proceed. The number that utilize the right is immaterial.


Rs very rarely stand for rights or what’s right, however you intended that.

Why not adopt instead of kill

 

[naturalmwa]

Why not adopt instead of kill

Well the article says about 20% of women get raped and you told me rape abortions are just 1%. That might indicate that many women do make other choices. But all of them should have the right to an abortion if they choose.

 

[biggreydogs]

Well the article says about 20% of women get raped and you told me rape abortions are just 1%. That might indicate that many women do make other choices. But all of them should have the right to an abortion if they choose.

Many people believe that the reasons women get abortions are to save their lives or physical health, or in cases of rape and incest, or to avoid birth defects. This is a fallacy that pro-abortion groups continue to cultivate because it helps them spread abortion in nations with pro-life laws and helps them retain abortion-on-demand once they have achieved it.



0.69% of Abortions Done for the “Hard Cases”
Calculations based on statistics provided by medical journals and government surveys in the United States show the hard cases are much rarer than most people believe:

• 0.36% of abortions done to save the life or health of the mother (5,200 per year)
• 0.09% done in cases of rape or incest (1,300 abortions per year)
• 0.24% done for fetal birth defects (3,470 per year)
• 0.69% done for all the hard cases combined (9,970 per year)
• 99.31% of all abortions are therefore performed for social or economic reasons

 

[naturalmwa]

Many people believe that the reasons women get abortions are to save their lives or physical health, or in cases of rape and incest, or to avoid birth defects. This is a fallacy that pro-abortion groups continue to cultivate because it helps them spread abortion in nations with pro-life laws and helps them retain abortion-on-demand once they have achieved it.



0.69% of Abortions Done for the “Hard Cases”
Calculations based on statistics provided by medical journals and government surveys in the United States show the hard cases are much rarer than most people believe:

• 0.36% of abortions done to save the life or health of the mother (5,200 per year)
• 0.09% done in cases of rape or incest (1,300 abortions per year)
• 0.24% done for fetal birth defects (3,470 per year)
• 0.69% done for all the hard cases combined (9,970 per year)
• 99.31% of all abortions are therefore performed for social or economic reasons

Why are you posting this? I accepted your 1% number. That’s not relevant to the argument. The argument is a lot of people get raped and abortion should be a right available to them if they choose. The number of women that choose this is immaterial. I’m glad it’s small. You should be too. Dance a happy dance.

 

[biggreydogs]

Why are you posting this? I accepted your 1% number. That’s not relevant to the argument. The argument is a lot of people get raped and abortion should be a right available to them if they choose. The number of women that choose this is immaterial. I’m glad it’s small. You should be too. Dance a happy dance.

I just enjoy educating you in case you need it at a party.

 

[naturalmwa]

I just enjoy educating you in case you need it at a party.

I do like to play the know it all, so that’s appreciated.

 

[JRHawk2003]

Tinder is explicitly a hook-up app. It’s explicitly for casual NSA sex. There are lots of other apps that are designed for different purposes: Bumble, OkCupid, Hinge, Coffee Meets Bagel, etc.

In my work, women seem to enjoy Tinder a lot more than men.

I dont agree. I have seen a lot of female profiles looking for more, or claiming to.

You have had a large culture in college for long time with both sexes going to bars, getting drunk, and looking to get down. I woke up with someone once in my room and had literally no idea. My boss woke me up for work. I had to wake her up and tell her it was time to go.

 

[FSU_UCLA]

You have had a large culture in college for long time with both sexes going to bars, getting drunk, and looking to get down. I woke up with someone once in my room and had literally no idea. My boss woke me up for work. I had to wake her up and tell her it was time to go.

UCLA is a different beast. There is literally only one bar near campus, and it's priced well outside the reach of most students by design. Campus, itself, is dry, with the exceptions of the faculty center and the bar in the very expensive on-campus hotel. As such, typically the only places that students drank regularly in the past were at the frat houses, but they banned hard alcohol last year.

 

[The Tradition]

UCLA is a different beast. There is literally only one bar near campus, and it's priced well outside the reach of most students by design. Campus, itself, is dry, with the exceptions of the faculty center and the bar in the very expensive on-campus hotel. As such, typically the only places that students drank regularly in the past were at the frat houses, but they banned hard alcohol last year.

And FSU used to have the Beer Barn across the street from campus (a drive through liquor store that would put a keg in your trunk for you). The Phyrst (home of the "Bladder Bust") was also just off campus in view of my dorm room. I gave up reading my economics textbook many a night lured by the siren song of people drinking at that bar.....

 

[FSU_UCLA]

And FSU used to have the Beer Barn across the street from campus (a drive through liquor store that would put a keg in your trunk for you). The Phyrst (home of the "Bladder Bust") was also just off campus in view of my dorm room. I gave up reading my economics textbook many a night lured by the siren song of people drinking at that bar.....

Yea, I was a regular spinning the wheel in Poor Paul's basement and at Waterworks when it was still downtown and had toast on the wall. I even did the tennessee waltz on my 21st birthday. A very different beast, indeed.

 

[Urohawk]

You seem to be conflating enthusiastic consent with physiological arousal and response.

I'll use this defnition, "For the uninitiated, enthusiastic consent is the idea that consent moves beyond the initial ‘yes’ and is shown by engagement and enthusiasm."



I don't think you're understand. There are people in relationships that aren't ever going to be enthusiastic. They have sex even though it doesn't interest them in order to maintain a relationship. They are happy with their relationship and the sex. My point is the idea of enthusiastic consent isn't realistic in the scope of human relationships. It's subjective and really isn't practical to protecting people.

 

[JRHawk2003]

Well, I have a son in college. If that standard is applied men should have them sign waivers to indemnify themselves. She can check the "enthusiastic consent" box in describing the agreement to copulate.

 

[The Tradition]

Well, I have a son in college. If that standard is applied men should have them sign waivers to indemnify themselves. She can check the "enthusiastic consent" in describing the agreement to copulate.

That's soooo romantic.

 

[JRHawk2003]

Lots of irony given the source, but its spot on.