157 Big Ten Seeds

[UndercoverHawk]

I have a spreadsheet put together of all the big ten guys at every weight. I’ll probably post those after the duals finish up next weekend and when rankings come out. But man 157 is gonna be a nightmare to seed. This is after today’s results and the rankings are as of Tuesday (so before this weekend).
School,Wrestler, Big Ten Dual Record, Record against Big Ten Opponents, Overall Record, Rankings (Flo/Intermat)

ILL, Kraisser, 4-4, 4-4, 8-7, 27/30
IND, Garvick, 1-7, 3-8, 4-12, NR/NR
IOWA, Teemer, 2-1, 2-1, 4-2, 2/3
UMD, Miller, 7-0, 8-0, 19-0, 6/6
MICH, Saldate, 2-3, 5-4, 9-6, 15/15
MSU, Stauffenberg, 1-5, 1-5, 5-13, NR/NR
MINN, Askey, 6-2, 6-2, 20-3, 9/8
NEB, Taylor, 5-1, 7-1, 17-2, 4/4
NW, Chumbley, 5-1, 5-1, 8-3, 12/9
OSU, Cannon, 2-1, 4-1, 14-2, Sasso ranked
PSU, Kasak, 5-1, 6-1, 14-1, 1/1
PUR, Blaze, 5-0, 5-1, 15-3, 7/7
RUT, Harer, 4-4, 5-4, 13-8, 26/29
WIS, Mechler, 2-6, 2-7, 9-13, NR/NR

I put Cannon in because he went the last 3 duals for OSU and has a much better record than Sasso. Blaze undefeated in duals, but he did lose to Miller in an earlier tourney (the teams did dual and Miller didn’t wrestle). Purdue and Nebby dual next weekend as the final dual of the Big Ten season so Taylor and Blaze COULD hit.

Miller should be the 1 seed but the next 6 seeds (2-7) could go any way.

 

[MALOS]

I have a spreadsheet put together of all the big ten guys at every weight. I’ll probably post those after the duals finish up next weekend and when rankings come out. But man 157 is gonna be a nightmare to seed. This is after today’s results and the rankings are as of Tuesday (so before this weekend).
School,Wrestler, Big Ten Dual Record, Record against Big Ten Opponents, Overall Record, Rankings (Flo/Intermat)

ILL, Kraisser, 4-4, 4-4, 8-7, 27/30
IND, Garvick, 1-7, 3-8, 4-12, NR/NR
IOWA, Teemer, 2-1, 2-1, 4-2, 2/3
UMD, Miller, 7-0, 8-0, 19-0, 6/6
MICH, Saldate, 2-3, 5-4, 9-6, 15/15
MSU, Stauffenberg, 1-5, 1-5, 5-13, NR/NR
MINN, Askey, 6-2, 6-2, 20-3, 9/8
NEB, Taylor, 5-1, 7-1, 17-2, 4/4
NW, Chumbley, 5-1, 5-1, 8-3, 12/9
OSU, Cannon, 2-1, 4-1, 14-2, Sasso ranked
PSU, Kasak, 5-1, 6-1, 14-1, 1/1
PUR, Blaze, 5-0, 5-1, 15-3, 7/7
RUT, Harer, 4-4, 5-4, 13-8, 26/29
WIS, Mechler, 2-6, 2-7, 9-13, NR/NR

I put Cannon in because he went the last 3 duals for OSU and has a much better record than Sasso. Blaze undefeated in duals, but he did lose to Miller in an earlier tourney (the teams did dual and Miller didn’t wrestle). Purdue and Nebby dual next weekend as the final dual of the Big Ten season so Taylor and Blaze COULD hit.

Miller should be the 1 seed but the next 6 seeds (2-7) could go any way.

I am waiting for Spooner’s prediction here since he laughed when I said Teemer was a 4-5 seed if he wins out. He didn’t wrestle against NW which he should have — he would have been 4-5 for sure.

Miller
Kasak
Blaze
Taylor
Teemer/Askey/Chumbley are the real toss ups.

 

[slushhead]

If Blaze beats Taylor next week:
1. Miller
2. Blaze
3. Kasak
4. Chumbley
5. Teemer
6. Taylor
7. Askey
8. Cannon

If either Blaze or Taylor sits next week:
1. Miller
2. Blaze
3. Kasak
4. Taylor
5. Chumbley
6. Teemer
7. Askey
8. Cannon

If Taylor beats Blaze:
1. Miller
2. Kasak
3. Taylor
4. Blaze
5. Chumbley
6. Teemer
7. Askey
8. Cannon

Not sure how Teemer and Cannon might be penalized by having so few matches, but the above is my best guess for seeds.

 

[west2east]

Teemer at a 4/5 is a good spot for him . I expect a Teemer vs Kasak final.

 

[slushhead]

Teemer at a 4/5 is a good spot for him . I expect a Teemer vs Kasak final.

I don’t see any scenario where he can earn #4. Too many other guys with 0 or 1 loss and more matches. You can’t penalize the guys that were taking the mat more frequently. Teemer has just one quality win in the B1G (Askey).

• Miller undefeated in B1G, beat his Iowa opponent in the dual
• Blaze will be undefeated in B1G or have just 1 loss, 3 or 4 more wins than Teemer
• Kasak has 1 loss but more wins and beat Teemer h2h
• Chumbley has 1 loss but 3 more wins, beat his Iowa opponent in the dual

If Taylor beats Blaze, he finishes with 1 loss but 4 more wins than Teemer, and he beat his Iowa opponent in the dual. That would push Teemer down to at least #6.

Maybe a 2-1 Teemer slots in at #5 ahead of a 5-2 Taylor?

 

[west2east]

I don’t see any scenario where he can earn #4. Too many other guys with 0 or 1 loss and more matches. You can’t penalize the guys that were taking the mat more frequently. Teemer has just one quality win in the B1G (Askey).

• Miller undefeated in B1G, beat his Iowa opponent in the dual
• Blaze will be undefeated in B1G or have just 1 loss, 3 or 4 more wins than Teemer
• Kasak has 1 loss but more wins and beat Teemer h2h
• Chumbley has 1 loss but 3 more wins, beat his Iowa opponent in the dual

If Taylor beats Blaze, he finishes with 1 loss but 4 more wins than Teemer, and he beat his Iowa opponent in the dual. That would push Teemer down to at least #6.

Maybe a 2-1 Teemer slots in at #5 ahead of a 5-2 Taylor?

Everyone has to remember the coaches VOTE. So he can be anywhere

 

[MALOS]

Everyone has to remember the coaches VOTE. So he can be anywhere

That’s right. They will also take into account national rankings. For instance, there isn’t a coach in the world that doesn’t know Teemer and Taylor are better than Chumbley. But, don’t forget the Iowa hate is real and coaches wont be looking to do Iowa any favors.

 

[HerkHawl]

Did Estrada qualify a spot or no because he's not in the rankings?

 

[sstark46]

Did Estrada qualify a spot or no because he's not in the rankings?

Moot point if Teemer is the one to wrestle. Even if Estrada earned an AQ spot for the conference, it would go back to the at-large pool if he's not the one to wrestle at B1Gs

 

[evashevsky58]

Teemer at a 4/5 is a good spot for him . I expect a Teemer vs Kasak final.

This is off topic but West2east, are you a Hawkeye fan or neutral. You seem pretty objective in your posts.

 

[slushhead]

Everyone has to remember the coaches VOTE. So he can be anywhere

That’s right. They will also take into account national rankings. For instance, there isn’t a coach in the world that doesn’t know Teemer and Taylor are better than Chumbley. But, don’t forget the Iowa hate is real and coaches wont be looking to do Iowa any favors.

I think voting to settle on-paper tiebreakers and select disputes makes a lot of sense. But unless something has changed recently, conference dual record is one of the first criteria considered. Let’s not forget that people want duals to matter (for several good reasons). If guys don’t wrestle, it is not fair to those who do to just seed based on opinions about who’s “better”.

Regarding the “Iowa hate” comment . . . it isn’t hate to put Chumbley ahead of Teemer. Chumbley would have earned it by having the same number of conference
losses, over twice as many conference wins, and a win over his Iowa opponent at the dual. Teemer had an opportunity to wrestle Chumbley yesterday and make that discussion an on-paper, indisputable decision in his own favor. But he didn’t. Can’t penalize Chumbley for that.

On-the-mat results need to matter.

 

[poorwrestler]

If Blaze beats Taylor next week:
1. Miller
2. Blaze
3. Kasak
4. Chumbley
5. Teemer
6. Taylor
7. Askey
8. Cannon

If either Blaze or Taylor sits next week:
1. Miller
2. Blaze
3. Kasak
4. Taylor
5. Chumbley
6. Teemer
7. Askey
8. Cannon

If Taylor beats Blaze:
1. Miller
2. Kasak
3. Taylor
4. Blaze
5. Chumbley
6. Teemer
7. Askey
8. Cannon

Not sure how Teemer and Cannon might be penalized by having so few matches, but the above is my best guess for seeds.

Does Askeys win over Chumbley muddy the waters there at all? Blaze sat against Minnesota, bummer.

 

[sstark46]

I think voting to settle on-paper tiebreakers and select disputes makes a lot of sense. But unless something has changed recently, conference dual record is one of the first criteria considered. Let’s not forget that people want duals to matter (for several good reasons). If guys don’t wrestle, it is not fair to those who do to just seed based on opinions about who’s “better”.

I think this is a common misconception. Seeds at B1Gs are entirely voted on by the coaches, and they can use whatever criteria they want. Maybe they're recommended to use B1G dual record as a top criteria but it's not a necessity.

 

[UndercoverHawk]

I think this is a common misconception. Seeds at B1Gs are entirely voted on by the coaches, and they can use whatever criteria they want. Maybe they're recommended to use B1G dual record as a top criteria but it's not a necessity.

This. Every coach seeds this how they see fit and then seeds are basically averaged to get the initial bracket and then arguments are made for changes at the meeting where it gets finalized.

 

[blcoach80]

I would love for Teemer to be the 4/5. If he is the 6/7 his path will be much tougher. Him vs Kasak in the quarters would be a joke, but it could happen.

 

[slushhead]

I think this is a common misconception. Seeds at B1Gs are entirely voted on by the coaches, and they can use whatever criteria they want. Maybe they're recommended to use B1G dual record as a top criteria but it's not a necessity.

This. Every coach seeds this how they see fit and then seeds are basically averaged to get the initial bracket and then arguments are made for changes at the meeting where it gets finalized.

Thanks for the clarifications. I must have read too many discussions over the years stating or implying criteria. Sounds like there really aren’t any.

 

[slushhead]

Does Askeys win over Chumbley muddy the waters there at all? Blaze sat against Minnesota, bummer.

Yeah, I think it could. I prefer to go on conference records first, h2h second, and common opponents third, but I could see someone arguing that Teemer beat Askey who beat Chumbley and seeding the 3 in that relative order.

Looking at results last night, it was rather frustrating seeing how many match-ups that theoretically would have provided clarity just didn’t happen because one guy was sitting that week. Like a game of whack-a-mole, but whiffing on every swing.

 

[west2east]

This is off topic but West2east, are you a Hawkeye fan or neutral. You seem pretty objective in your posts.

I have many friends in Iowa and root more for individuals than I do a team. I lived in NJ for years and would go to the Rutgers room so I know some of these guys and I cheer for them. I spent some time at Sebolt for camps and know some of those kids and cheer for them. I'm usually standing up in my living room screaming for Peterson, Shawver, Ayala, Teemer, Caliendo, Frost brothers, Riggins, Wask, Davis and Van Ness. I can't name them all but that's how I operate. If I have been around you and like you I will be cheering for you. So long story short I'm not an "Iowa fan"

 

[west2east]

I think voting to settle on-paper tiebreakers and select disputes makes a lot of sense. But unless something has changed recently, conference dual record is one of the first criteria considered. Let’s not forget that people want duals to matter (for several good reasons). If guys don’t wrestle, it is not fair to those who do to just seed based on opinions about who’s “better”.

Regarding the “Iowa hate” comment . . . it isn’t hate to put Chumbley ahead of Teemer. Chumbley would have earned it by having the same number of conference
losses, over twice as many conference wins, and a win over his Iowa opponent at the dual. Teemer had an opportunity to wrestle Chumbley yesterday and make that discussion an on-paper, indisputable decision in his own favor. But he didn’t. Can’t penalize Chumbley for that.

On-the-mat results need to matter.

Coaches don't vote to break tie breakers they vote to seed the whole thing. Yes they've criteria but that doesn't mean they follow it. Each team turns in a piece of paper for each weight where they seed it . They tally up the numbers and those are the seeds

 

[Rose bowl or bust]

I wish there was more of a "criteria" based seeding system. I get that some coaches are going to sit guys. Call it ducking or load management or whatever you want, but it takes away from some good matchups during the season.

I wish they would go to a "team seed"...all the matches at any given weight are counted for seeding purposes. I get it...a guy is injured and his backup isn't very good, you're going to have a stud with a lower seed. That's how it works in team sports...and if we want duals to matter, then it's a team sport. In this case, all of Estrada's and Teemer's matches would be combined to give us a 4-5 record (not sure that's what it would be, but you get the point), and this 4-5 record along with head to heads would be used to calculate the seeds at conference. Possible for there to be a couple of undefeated or one loss guys who just weren't scheduled to meet, but would clear up all the back and forth of what ifs.