I wasn’t comparing them as wrestlers. I was simply pointing out how ridiculously hard that weight has been for quite a few years now. The crazy thing is I think it has been even harder since his last season…
170 points
- Thread starter WildTurk
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And I was pointing out that the excuse-makers don’t make Marinelli’s NCAA results out to be anything other than him destroying his own body (as opposed to crediting a really tough field). Ok, ok, I guess they have given credit to the quarterfinalists being tough. But Marinelli was tougher on his body than on theirs! 🙄
Ok, well you used my post to push an agenda I didn’t have a part in. The only time I have pointed to injury for Alex has been when I said it is the only reason he isn’t a 4x AA.
Although I still do think he was good enough to win a title, I also believe his style in neutral was too 1 dimensional. He relied too heavily on hand fighting and inside ties and was vulnerable late in matches to offense from space.
Sadly, his style wasn’t too hard to game plan against, as long as your gas tank was at its peak in March. Even sadder, it seems all his opponents at NCAA’s were able to implement that to a T…
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I don't think he is far off after watching several of his matches now. He is in the same top tier imo.
Caliendo is leading Tier 2. Lot's of talent at 165
Let me stop you right there.
Missouri is definitely NOT an inferior program to Iowa when it comes to middle and upper weight development in the last ~15 years.
Missouri is definitely an inferior program to Iowa
Davis was a decent but not elite recruit. Surprised he is starting over Howard. As good as he has been, Lillidaul is the real gem of all the light weight recruits they have landed recently. One of them can redshirt, then the other, and that may buy enough time for their 133 to graduate. And Gibson will be in the mix.
Gibson will not be in the mix. He only sees the mat if multiple guys get injured.
Since Askren was there, they’ve won 9 titles at or above 165. Iowa has won 3 in that time.
He definitely CAN. I just don't see it happening. Neither of those guys are going to get tired, and they will make him pay for over-wrestling. Which he does in every match.
To be fair, O'Toole is the only one in that range that has won since 2017. And if you add in Cox, they are the only 2 that have won since 2010.
For the record you have,
O'Toole -165-2022 and 2023
Cox-197- 2014, 2016 and 2017
Max Askren-197-2010
Mark Ellis-285- 2009
Ben Askren-174- 2006 and 2007
For the record you have,
O'Toole -165-2022 and 2023
Cox-197- 2014, 2016 and 2017
Max Askren-197-2010
Mark Ellis-285- 2009
Ben Askren-174- 2006 and 2007
You just dont have anything to back up your point like he does.
Guessing Lions hit 155. I like Davis’ quirky style, but think both Ayala and Ramos will overpower him. That said, our 8th grader (I mean, look at the kid) has surprised to this point and may well AA (another surprise).
As for Mesenbrink, I’m with @vhsalum that the bulldozer approach used on Amine won’t work on Carr or KOT, maybe not even your Cal. Curious where the oxygen comes from for such exertion and guess it’s because no one’s on top long enough to squeeze it out of him. I fear one of the stronger 165s will do that. I think he’ll decision Cal at dual and take third at NCAAs. Also thinks Hawks take team silver there, edging Michigan.
As for Mesenbrink, I’m with @vhsalum that the bulldozer approach used on Amine won’t work on Carr or KOT, maybe not even your Cal. Curious where the oxygen comes from for such exertion and guess it’s because no one’s on top long enough to squeeze it out of him. I fear one of the stronger 165s will do that. I think he’ll decision Cal at dual and take third at NCAAs. Also thinks Hawks take team silver there, edging Michigan.
Iowa has done a great job at putting guys on the podium. Were I readily admit they have fallen short is getting them at the very top of the podium.
Still, my point was clear. It is a bit disingenous to post the 9-3 stat comparison to make it look like Missouri is just churning them out. In reality, O'toole is the only one in 7 years and, adding Cox, they are the only 2 in 14 years....
Re: davis. He could win it. He could not place.
Who in the hell could have seen this coming? At any point in time, rankings mean NOTHING. None of us, not a single one, know or can predict with any accuracy who will win 125. Hell, I don't think there's a person that can guess 1-8. Literally 1-33 can win, just get to the tournament and and F around and found out.
I mean... Two guys ranked #1 at the weight lost to high schoolers WHILE they were ranked #1. It's a bad weight, but is going to make for an exciting NCAA.
Feb 9. Davis beats Ayala? He's the favorite.
Who in the hell could have seen this coming? At any point in time, rankings mean NOTHING. None of us, not a single one, know or can predict with any accuracy who will win 125. Hell, I don't think there's a person that can guess 1-8. Literally 1-33 can win, just get to the tournament and and F around and found out.
I mean... Two guys ranked #1 at the weight lost to high schoolers WHILE they were ranked #1. It's a bad weight, but is going to make for an exciting NCAA.
Feb 9. Davis beats Ayala? He's the favorite.
One thing overlooked is staying healthy. Some of the best ever on various sports never seemed to be hurt or suffer major injuries, think Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, Nolan Tyan, Steve Carlton, and Cal Ripken Jr. then look at an actual combat sport like wrestling? It's just very difficult to rise to the top and stay healthy in this sport. And it might be more rare than even football.
I think some have that combination of luck and genetics when it comes to avoiding injuries, and that is quite rare.
I think some have that combination of luck and genetics when it comes to avoiding injuries, and that is quite rare.
I don't think it's a bad weight, just maybe a weight that a high schooler might be more likely ready to challenge a college guy. Think about it? Heavier weights might not quite have the weight and strength yet but 125 lbers can be quite strong, lb for lb stronger than heavier guys. add that to a lot of training and they might be ready.
Bad was probably too harsh of a word. 125 does have a bunch of solid guys, but no really elite guys. As fans, we have been spoiled lately, with most weights having at least 1 super elite guy and several actually having 2 or even 3. With Spencer, Suriano and Glory gone and Vito up at 133, 125 is more wide open than any weight I have seen in a long time…
Man… I’m not being mean at all.
But objectively - it’s a BAD weight. As special as blaze and Forrest are - no way should TWO #1s lose to a high school kid. Both of whom have losses to other high school kids recently.
And sure you could call it a “deep” weight, but couple the high school losses with the sheer range of upsets and number guys who have been ranked #1 and what do you get?
No elite guys. None. So for me, if there are truly no elite guys (all of whom could apparently lose to a couple high school kids) it’s a bad weight.
No need to even talk about last year's crop. That's every weight every year, to some extent.
It's just a historically crazy and bad weight. Sure, a lot of things had to happen, including the loss of some greats. But even that doesn't explain the lack of elites among the current crop. Every year, no matter the weight, no matter who was lost to graduation/injury/etc - there are ALWAYS elite guys ready to step up. Or guys who step up to becoming the elite.
We're not getting either. Jakob Camacho is ranked #23. Would it be impossible or surprising if he won the title. Ethan Berginc at #33 - would it be completely outside the realm of possibility that he places? that he finishes top 4? It's not. And that is wild.
The wild card is Davis. 125 has been a free-for-all so far, and there is a list of 20 guys who could conceivably win, so Davis could finish anywhere from champ to nothing. If Penn State needs to pick up more points, it's most likely going to be here.
Mesenbrink could get higher than 4th. I'm not going to say he's ahead of either Carr or KOT until I see him beat them, but I don't see anyone else that I think is a sure thing over him. He'll have a shot a Hamiti at B1Gs. That'll clarify the situation a little more, too. If KOT sweeps Carr and MM ends up 2 and Carr 4, that could also set him up for the finals.
133 is also a more volatile than expected. Vito looked beatable again this weekend, Fix is primed for a 7th year fade, and Crookham is a true frosh, but with that said, I don't disagree with putting Nagao below all of them.
To be fair, anyone ranking Stanich #1 was just doing it to be edgy (and because there really is no one deserving of the #1 ranking). He's not even a confirmed starter on his own team yet. Blaze over Ramos was shocking, though.
Stanich has been the confirmed starter for a few weeks now.
but that's exactly my point. It ain't UNreasonable to rank him #1.
I don't. Because it's going to an absolute seeding NIGHTMARE. Put it this way. No matter the seeds, will any of us be able to say someone was seeded wrongly/badly?
Nope.
That's not true. He used his 5th date over the weekend and is still in redshirt. He could end up the guy but he's still in redshirt
I do think it's unreasonable for it to be him. There are 20 people who could win. He's in the 20, but not anywhere near the top. If Ayala and Ramos were 1-2 going in to their match, then I would have just flipped them, not moved up a true frosh who is a relative unknown. I'm not sure how Stanich is a confirmed starter, either, since Seymour has gone in 3 of the 4 duals since the New Year.
We will find out soon and I can't wait. NCAAs will be wild at many weights. Nobody knows what a takedown is . Some refs aren't sure and the fans definitely don't know. Bricks will be gone early for most teams .
Davis was #7 overall on Willie's big board, so he was an elite recruit for at least one person.
I get that, but maybe there are a few elite guys in it? Maybe not a Spenser, but maybe some real tough kids who knock each other off?
I get what you're saying and don't really disagree but maybe when we look back it was actually quite solid?
