19 years of Fry vs. Ferentz, how may top 25 finishes for each?
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Ferentz has 5, so I believe that is accurate.
It could probably be argued that Hayden was a little more consistent, but Ferentz has had greater highs. With that said, Fry played tougher non-conference schedules and didn't get the luxury of missing Michigan, Ohio State, etc. as is common in today's B1G Ten. In fairness, Iowa State was a joke for much of Fry's tenure and directional schools were an automatic cakewalk, unlike today, so there's that to factor in as well.
In short, we're splitting hairs. Both are legendary coaches, and Iowa is very fortunate to have had both. I'm 37 and have only known 2 football coaches at Iowa. That's an incredible statement when you stop and think about it.
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I think Hayden had more Top 25 finishes than Ferentz has had (someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Ferentz has only finished in the Top 25 once outside of his 5 Top 10 finishes).
In terms of who was more successful, depends how you slice it.
Yep as if he could not google his own lame question. What do you expect for an ISU fan masquerading as something else?
3rd and 12 draw.
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Generally speaking I can name the most fun and exciting seasons when Iowa finished in the top 10.
While fans beckon back to the exotics, I think they were overrated and a sign that your team is overmatched; not to meantion detrimental to winning the game. For example the fake punt againsr Michigan in 1991.
Hayden's teams finished ranked in the top 25 10 times in his 20 years at Iowa.
1981 #15
1983 #14
1984 #15
1985 #9
1986 #15
1987 #16
1990 #16
1991 #10
1995 #22
1996 #18
9 top 20 finishes in 20 seasons, with 2 top 10 finishes.
In 19 seasons, Kirk's teams have finished ranked in the top 25 only 6 times, though he has more top 10 finishes than Hayden.
2002 #8
2003 #8
2004 #8
2008 #20
2009 #7
2015 #9
Further, Hayden had an overall winning percentage of .600 to Kirk's .596. Hayden had a .592 Big Ten winning percentage compared to Kirk's .554. We can discuss who had a tougher Big Ten slate (Kirk) and who played a tougher OOC (Hayden) etc.
1981 #15
1983 #14
1984 #15
1985 #9
1986 #15
1987 #16
1990 #16
1991 #10
1995 #22
1996 #18
9 top 20 finishes in 20 seasons, with 2 top 10 finishes.
In 19 seasons, Kirk's teams have finished ranked in the top 25 only 6 times, though he has more top 10 finishes than Hayden.
2002 #8
2003 #8
2004 #8
2008 #20
2009 #7
2015 #9
Further, Hayden had an overall winning percentage of .600 to Kirk's .596. Hayden had a .592 Big Ten winning percentage compared to Kirk's .554. We can discuss who had a tougher Big Ten slate (Kirk) and who played a tougher OOC (Hayden) etc.
Thank you for taking the time to look all that up. Those numbers were pretty much what I had in my head.
I disagree, though, that Kirk has had a tougher conference slate than Hayden. I understand teams like Northwestern and Wisconsin were trash back in Hayden's day, but Illinois, Maryland, and Rutgers aren't much better in this era. Plus, as I pointed out in another response, Hayden consistently played every conference opponent. How often has Kirk missed Ohio State, Penn State, Michigan, etc. this era? A lot. Last year was probably Iowa's most challenging conference schedule in recent memory. Otherwise, Iowa's conference schedules have been pretty tame when you factor in how many times they've avoided the tougher teams in the East. Look at this year's schedule. The top four teams in the East last year were Ohio State, Michigan State, Penn State, and Michigan (who finished 4th with 8 wins). Iowa plays one of them (Penn State) in 2018.
I thought that too, however; I watched a ton of highlights from games 81-2004 and that is not remotely true. Fry had some boring ass teams and KF had some pretty electric offenses sprinkled in too. Both successful and both will be looked back on with some great memories and most important they were both class acts! The only difference could be is KF might go out on an upward swing as opposed to Fry, love the direction of program right now and probably have 4 years max with KF so let’s enjoy
Someone needs to explain to me why is there so much dilike for KF? He has been very bit as good a coach as Fry was and doesn’t appear to be slowing down and actually maybe moving upwards. I think Iowa has been really blessed to have only 2 head coaches in 40 years how many has ISU or Nebraska been through?
Great question and one I have wondered about for years. I don’t think some fans have ever accepted KF. Probably because of the Stoops ordeal (Stoops CHOSE OU) and also Fry and his charisma is incredibly difficult to follow up.
I wouldn’t change a thing. I love Hayden and I love KF.
Money, there is the perception that because Kirk is paid so well he should have a team that mimics that. I am certainly not in agreement with that statement.
Hayden had tough non-con schedules when he came in & immediately started working towards having easier ones. As you know it takes awhile to get there.
I saw above where Hayden played tougher non conference opponents. Well, I remember them playing ISU and Drake many years, and neither of them really ever put up much of a fight. Hell, I remember them beating Drake 58-0 one year. With the exception of Fry's first two or three years, I don't remember Iowa playing a real tough non conference schedule. The first years of Fry's schedule were set by Bob Cummings and the AD, not Fry. Anyway, Northern Iowa is head and shoulders above what Drake put on the field. I do recall Drake having one really good team, which lost to Iowa 58-0 and only lost one other game that season to Tulsa I believe. But I surely wouldn't say Fry played a tougher non conference then Ferentz. In conference play, Northwestern for the majority of Fry's years was a beat down of biblical proportions, and Wisconsin stunk for the majority of the Fry years. I would say the BiG is much tougher from top to bottom then it was in the Fry years. During the Ferentz era, Michigan State has been good for at least half Kirk's tenure. Wisconsin has been good about all of Kirk's tenure. Northwestern has been tough most of Kirk's tenure. Purdue was decent through Kirk's first half of his tenure. Ohio State has been good throughout Kirk's tenure. Michigan was good, then down, then good again throughout Kirk's tenure. Penn State has been anywhere from average to good. Nebraska is as good as any of the average teams Fry played, and had a few decent teams under Pelini. Look at the conference during the Fry years. Over half his years, no Penn State. Wisconsin, suck. Illinois, suck to maybe average. Indiana, average at best. Michigan State, average. OSU and Michigan, good. Purdue, suck to maybe average. Northwestern, major suck. So to me, I give the nod to Kirk, but give credit to Hayden for getting Iowa rolling and helping to train many very successful coaches, including Kirk.
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Other than Iowa State HF played 23 P5 teams non con. KF with far more opportunities has played 13 P5 non con opponents.
Agreed. But that's because he had a murderers' row when he first took over. He still played tougher non-conference opponents than Ferentz has throughout the majority of his tenure.
Fry's Notable Non-conference Opponents:
1979: #3 Oklahoma, #7 Nebraska
1980: #6 Nebraska
1981: #7 Nebraska, #6 UCLA
1982: #3 Nebraska
1983: Penn State (who finished 8-4-1)
1984: #12 Penn State
1987: #17 Tennessee
1988: Colorado (who finished 8-4)
1989: Oregon (who finished 8-4)
1990: #10 Miami(FL)
1992: NC State (who finished 9-3-1), #1 Miami (FL), #10 Colorado
1994: Oregon (who finished 9-4 and won the Pac 10)
1998: #17 Arizona
Yes, as I pointed out by writing this:
Ferentz, too, has played his fair share of opponents who were complete garbage (i.e. North Texas). Regardless, there's no question Fry played significantly better opponents in the non-conference, as I clearly laid out above.
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Thanks for posting that BlackNGold. When Hayden was hired in December 1978 he commented on the schedule, "We'll be playing not only for the Big Ten title, but the Big 8 title as well." Oklahoma, Nebraska, and ISU (coming off Earle Bruce's last season at 8-4).
Iowa was much better coached and played much better and they went 5-6 in 1979. I still like Bump a lot but that kind of schedule doesn't do your coach any favors.
Agreed. Both coaches were perfect for when they came along. Iowa has been fortunate to have both.
That's not entirely true. Illinois went to the Rose Bowl in 1983 and had a decent run with John Mackovic in the late eighties to early nineties. Also, Michigan State went to seven bowl games under George Perles from 1983-1994, winning the Rose Bowl in 1988.
I do agree, however, that for most of that era it was pretty much Michigan and Ohio State with Iowa sprinkled in.
Also, again, Kirk has frequently had schedules in which Iowa missed a lot of the B1G's best teams, so that should be factored in as well. From 2011-2015, Iowa played a conference team ranked in the Top 10 once, which was Ohio State in 2013 (two if you want to count MSU in the conference title game). So yes, in what was scheduled, that's one Top 10 conference opponent in five seasons. On average, Iowa has played about 2-3 teams in the Top 25 per season during that time frame. While 2016 and 2017 were significantly tougher, Ferentz has not consistently played good conference schedules. So, I don't think you can say Ferentz gets the nod just because the B1G has been better from top to bottom in the modern era since Iowa has missed their fair share of the conference's best. For me, it's about a wash. I admit, though, the debate could go either way.
Well you could argue that OSU was down from 1980 to 92 under Bruce. Not the same as the 90's to current. NW was a totally different team as was Wisconsin. (The big 10 started to get far better on the bottom scale in the mid 90's) Plus no Penn State until the mid 90's Also Iowa St. is totally changed game which we found out in...97 or 98. Illinois is Illinois - very good and bad teams throughout the 80s, 90's and 2000's
To me the biggest difference is the way played. Hayden almost always beat the teams he was supposed to and never had a problem putting them away. KF will lose to some he has no business losing to but will pull a win over someone he shouldn't because he keeps games close. He can win or lose in the 4th.
Okay. Hayden coached until 1998, so he played plenty of 10/11-win Ohio State teams. But, yes, Ohio State is more dominant in the modern era. How many times has Iowa faced Ohio State since Ferentz took over? I believe ten times. Ferentz didn't face Ohio State in 2001, 2002, 2007, 2008, 2011, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2016. That's nine seasons without Ohio State on the schedule. Nine.
Yes, the Big Ten had plenty of bottom feeders throughout the eighties and nineties. Both NW and Wisconsin, however, went to Rose Bowls in the nineties while Hayden was coaching. It's a pretty safe bet Illinois, Maryland, and Rutgers will remain bottom feeders while Ferentz is at Iowa. Furthermore, Ferentz has beaten up on plenty of crappy Minnesota, Purdue, Indiana, and even Nebraska teams throughout his tenure, so the whole "Hayden played a lot of bad conference teams" doesn't fly with me because Ferentz has had plenty of his fair share too.
About the only thing that could be argued in terms of a clear advantage in favor of Ferentz in regards to schedule strength is Iowa State. With that said, Ferentz has lost to Iowa State teams that have gone 3-9 (2007) and 2-10 (2014). In fact, Ferentz has played 7 Iowa State teams who won 3 games or fewer in a season during his tenure. Seven. So, let's not pretend here that Iowa State has been some type of juggernaut during this era. Iowa State has had a few okay teams but have been mostly mediocre to crap.
Lest we forget, a lot of the early non-con scheduling was Bump's doing. Hayden said himself when he got here that he wanted to lighten the schedule up a bit.
I try not to compare Hayden with Kirk. I feel like I'm denigrating both when doing so. They've both historically been great for the University of Iowa. They both had their strengths as well as weaknesses - but worked within the confines of "being Iowa" rather well.
I don't care what anybody says...it's hard to do what both had or have done through the years at an Iowa. All we have to look at is towards the rest of the Little 8 to see how hard it is to sustain if we're not Michigan and Ohio State. Iowa has done that as equally well as any of the 8 over their time.
There's 5 other B10 schools outside the newcomers that would sell their children for what Fry and Ferentz have done during their eras.
I try not to compare Hayden with Kirk. I feel like I'm denigrating both when doing so. They've both historically been great for the University of Iowa. They both had their strengths as well as weaknesses - but worked within the confines of "being Iowa" rather well.
I don't care what anybody says...it's hard to do what both had or have done through the years at an Iowa. All we have to look at is towards the rest of the Little 8 to see how hard it is to sustain if we're not Michigan and Ohio State. Iowa has done that as equally well as any of the 8 over their time.
There's 5 other B10 schools outside the newcomers that would sell their children for what Fry and Ferentz have done during their eras.
Hayden played Drake once. He played Northern Iowa twice(1995 and 1997). Those were the only FCS (Div 1AA) schools he ever played.
Compare that to UNI in 2005, Montana in 2006, Maine in 2008, UNI in 2009, Eastern Illinois in 2010, Tennessee Tech in 2011, UNI in 2012, Missouri State in 2013, UNI in 2014, Illinois State in 2015, North Dakota State (whom we lost to) in 2016, and UNI in 2018. Kirk plays a lot of cupcakes.
Early in Kirk's time at Iowa, we played highly ranked K-State and Nebraska teams, ranked ASU teams, and were scheduled to play a tough Mizzou squad that backed out on us - admittedly the reason we played UNI in 2005 - but ever since, our OOC schedule has been a who's who of "Who?" (North Texas, Utah State, lots of MAC teams)
You can say that ISU is better now than when Hayden coached, but Kirk has lost to some really awful ISU teams (2-10 in 2014, 6-7 in 2012, 6-7 in 2011, 3-9 in 2007, 7-7 in 2002, 4-7 in 1999). It's safe to say that this year will be the best Iowa State team since Dan McCarney got the axe 12 years ago. So really, ISU has been respectable about half of Kirk's time at Iowa, otherwise, they've been of the quality they were against Hayden, and Kirk has found ways to lose to them anyway.
I love both coaches, just keeping the discussion fact based.
Hayden started in 1979, NW was a complete and utter doormat until 1995, and Wisconsin wasn't any good until 1993. So Hayden had 13 years of playing bad Badgers and 15 years of terrible bad Wildcats, and Penn State did not enter the league until 1993. So in reality, the majority of Hayden's years were in a league with only two good teams (tOSU and Michigan) and a bunch of mediocre ones. Wisconsin I believe is better then they were when Barry was there, Northwestern might not be better, but Hayden only had to face 4 good NW teams in his time at Iowa. For the majority of Kirk's time, tOSU, Wisconsin, Northwestern, Michigan and Penn State have been for the most part good. Michigan State for half of Kirk's time has been really good. Purdue was good the last couple years of Hayden's career, and good the first half of Kirk's. Even Nebbie is an upgrade over what the BiG had in Hayden's years. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Kirk was better then Hayden. Both coach with the era they're dealt. I just think the league is so much tougher in Kirk's time then it was in Hayden's, and my personal opinion is that Kirk's best team would beat Hayden's best team. My opinion for what it's worth, which is nothing against either coach. I am proud and think we were lucky that we have had them both at Iowa.
I agree with you the B1G Ten is better today than it was during Fry's tenure. My point was that quite a few years Kirk's Iowa teams have avoided many of the tougher conference opponents and have actually played schedules comparable to Hayden's.
I also agree that Kirk's best team would beat Hayden's best team, but I think a lot of that is because college kids are a lot bigger and more athletic today than they were 20-30 years ago.
And, finally, I agree that Iowa is lucky and should be proud to have had both. As I pointed out earlier, two head coaches in forty years is incredible.
In the last thirty years, how many times has ISU and Minnesota finished in the top 25 combined?
I'll hang up and wait for your answer.
ISU:
2000 Insight Bowl win over Pitt 19/25.
Minn:
1999 Sun Bowl win over Oregon 18/17.
2003 Sun Bowl win over Oregon 20/17.
A bit of a sidenote for those claiming Hayden lightened the schedule upon arrival, the Nebraska teams that Kirk faced his first two years were scheduled when Hayden was still the head coach so those wouldn't really count as far as Kirk scheduling tough teams. Although K State in 2000 counts as I think that game was added after Hayden, not sure how far in advance they announced games like the Kickoff, Pigskin, and Eddie Robinson Classics.
It's just really hard to compare eras. The 2015 team doesn't make the Rose Bowl in Hayden's era as they finished second to MSU (granted there was not B10 title game to lose in Hayden's days). The 2002 team probably goes to the Rose Bowl because OSU had been there more recently (can't remember if non-conference was a tiebreaker). Otherwise they don't make a BCS bowl and just go to the Holiday Bowl or the Citrus Bowl, or wherever the second B10 team went on that particular year. On the flip side under the current structure, the 1991 Iowa team does make the Rose Bowl since Michigan would've gone the the playoff that year, or at least a BCS bowl equivalent to what Iowa did in 2002 and 2009
It's just really hard to compare eras. The 2015 team doesn't make the Rose Bowl in Hayden's era as they finished second to MSU (granted there was not B10 title game to lose in Hayden's days). The 2002 team probably goes to the Rose Bowl because OSU had been there more recently (can't remember if non-conference was a tiebreaker). Otherwise they don't make a BCS bowl and just go to the Holiday Bowl or the Citrus Bowl, or wherever the second B10 team went on that particular year. On the flip side under the current structure, the 1991 Iowa team does make the Rose Bowl since Michigan would've gone the the playoff that year, or at least a BCS bowl equivalent to what Iowa did in 2002 and 2009
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