UCLA had 3 fumbles, 2 of which they lost and also a pass interception, so they didn't exactly play a perfect game. 3 turnovers. They had almost 500 yards offense, basically 300 yards rushing and 200 yards passing. Again, they did whatever they wanted. Did Harmon's fumbles play a huge part in that game? Clearly. You also can't argue that giving up 500 yards and 45 points makes it pretty hard to win a game.
1986 Rose Bowl
- Thread starter Eternal Return
- Start date
Look at the fumbles. One butter fingers ...others, unfortunate FB okays where a hand or helmet got ball.
Hey, I didn't claim he would have yanked him one way or the other. That's why I put up the poll to see what people thought. In no way was I attempting to knock Harmon here, but rather put it to the fans to express their opinions about the different styles between Fry and Ferentz when it comes to turnovers. Som posters have brought up whether Ronnie was throwing the game or whatever, but that wasn't my focus when making this poll. I just wondered, given Ferentz's history in being quick to pull players (whether for the whole game or not) if they fumbled the ball.
Personally, I'm torn between 2 and 3 fumbles. because of how special Ronnie was, maybe Ferentz gives him more rope, but the timing and impact of his early fumbles were significant and drastically changed momentum each time. That latter part makes me think Ferentz would have benched him after two fumbles, but maybe would have reinserted him into the game after a few series depending on how the game was going.
But I'm not going to get into whether Ronnie fumbled on purpose or not. That's not why I posted this. I made the post because there is so little to talk about regarding current football other than whether there will be a saeson or not. Given the number of people making comments and the number of votes, it's obviously a popular topic of discussion, probably more right now than it would normally be if there was no coronavirus issue.
Anyway, just wanted to clear that up.
Yeah, you or I might not have pulled him, but I think Ferentz would have benched him for at least a few series after the second or third. I'm torn about wheter it would be the second or the third. But we do know that Ferentz is more conservative when it comes to turnovers. He's shown that thought his career as head coach. I was just curious what other posters thought about how Ferentz (now) might have handled the situation if he was coaching that game situation with that team. Impossible to say for sure, but with everything up in the air about whether there will be football next season I thought it would be interesting to pose the question and see what other fans thought. Cheers!
Yeah, Ferentz has shown he has a quicker trigger on benching a player for fumbling rather than throwing an interception. I have seen him go more heavily to running the ball after costly interceptions or to calling safer pass plays, but that hasn't required him to bench the QB (which is a much bigger deal than benching a RB for the game or for a few series).
Yeah, but Ferentz has been quicker to pull RBs and WRs for fumbles than he has been related to pulling QBs for INTs, incompletions, whatever. In fact, he's downright stubborn when it comes to keeping his chosen starting QB in games and throughout seasons. RBs and WRs, though, he's had a much, much quicker trigger finger in terms of yanking guys, even if just for a few series rather than the whole game. Personally, I think KF would have benched him for at least a few series after the second fumble and made a decision about putting him back in the game depending on how the offense was performing without him. But after the third fumble I think he would have benched him for the rest of the game. We'll never know, but I thought this would be a fun topic for fans to express their opinions since there isn't much to talk about football-wise currently because of the coronavirus.
Interesting! Wow, I'd have to rewatch the game to check that. Fascinating take on the situation, though. Great post!
As I recall it after the first fumble he was trying to do do too much and put another one on the ground. At that point he became a head case for the rest of the game. To me it was a classic case of someone trying too hard to move up the draft board. I was totally frustrated at the time, but I didn’t see anything that I thought was intentional in the moment.
The 1985 Iowa team was my favorite team at anytime and in any sport. Chuck Long is my favorite Hawk of all-time. (Check the avatar).
Ronnie Harmon had hands the size of a softball glove. He could catch almost anything and never fumbled. He was routinely crushed in the game against Michigan, one of the best defenses in the country - no fumbles.
I believe he was on the take in that game, and no one will ever convince me otherwise. A "bad game" does not equal 4 fumbles and a easy dropped pass in the end zone, unless he was out partying for the 36 hours prior to game time.
Ronnie Harmon is the goat ... not the GOAT.
Ronnie Harmon had hands the size of a softball glove. He could catch almost anything and never fumbled. He was routinely crushed in the game against Michigan, one of the best defenses in the country - no fumbles.
I believe he was on the take in that game, and no one will ever convince me otherwise. A "bad game" does not equal 4 fumbles and a easy dropped pass in the end zone, unless he was out partying for the 36 hours prior to game time.
Ronnie Harmon is the goat ... not the GOAT.
A lot of strange coincidences
t wasn’t until the summer of 1987 that the idea of Harmon possibly throwing the ’86 Rose Bowl was floated out. That was because in June of 1987, the NCAA publicly finished an investigation where it determined he had not thrown the ’86 Rose Bowl in which Iowa was favored by 2.5 points.
The reason the NCAA even started an investigation was because it was an offshoot of a Chicago federal grand jury probe into alleged dealings between sports agents Norby Walters and Lloyd Bloom and college athletes. Harmon was among several Iowa players implicated for allegedly accepting improper benefits from the agents.
Harmon eventually admitted taking $50,000 from Walters and Michael Franzese, the man who helped bankroll Walters and Bloom. That association with the two further fueled the suspicion that Harmon threw the ’86 Rose Bowl.
Franzese added more fuel to the fire during a 2002 taping of HBO’s “Real Sports” when he came out and said he believed that Harmon threw the game. Franzese made the statement fully admitting he was in prison at the time and that he had no actual proof of this other than the game tapes...
https://vault.si.com/vault/1988/09/...-were-indicted-for-racketeering-and-extortion
t wasn’t until the summer of 1987 that the idea of Harmon possibly throwing the ’86 Rose Bowl was floated out. That was because in June of 1987, the NCAA publicly finished an investigation where it determined he had not thrown the ’86 Rose Bowl in which Iowa was favored by 2.5 points.
The reason the NCAA even started an investigation was because it was an offshoot of a Chicago federal grand jury probe into alleged dealings between sports agents Norby Walters and Lloyd Bloom and college athletes. Harmon was among several Iowa players implicated for allegedly accepting improper benefits from the agents.
Harmon eventually admitted taking $50,000 from Walters and Michael Franzese, the man who helped bankroll Walters and Bloom. That association with the two further fueled the suspicion that Harmon threw the ’86 Rose Bowl.
Franzese added more fuel to the fire during a 2002 taping of HBO’s “Real Sports” when he came out and said he believed that Harmon threw the game. Franzese made the statement fully admitting he was in prison at the time and that he had no actual proof of this other than the game tapes...
https://vault.si.com/vault/1988/09/...-were-indicted-for-racketeering-and-extortion
Franzene made the statement fully admitting he was in prison at the time and that he had no actual proof of this. It's all speculation on either side. Unless Ronnie ever comes out and said he threw the game, nobody will ever know. We do know he had an awful game. We also know our defense gave up 45 points and 500 yards.
The 50k doesn't sound like alot BUT in 1985 that would be like 120k when the average annual NFL salary was 190k back then.
https://qns.com/story/2002/07/31/harmon-still-chased-by-fix-rumor-16-years-later/
On the show, which aired last Tuesday, Michael Franzese, a former capo in the Colombo crime family, hints that Harmon, then a high-profile senior running back at Iowa, may have fixed the game.
Harmon, who had fumbled just once all season, coughed up the ball four times in the first half alone and also dropped what appeared to be a sure touchdown catch in the 48-25 loss to underdog UCLA.
“I know it doesn’t look good, that’s for sure,” Franzese said of Harmon’s performance. “I would certainly have been suspicious. . .that he threw the game.”
Harmon, who could not be reached for comment, has in the past denied a part in any fix, but he did admit to taking money under the table from Norby Walters who, along with Lloyd Bloom, paid 58 top college football players a total of $800,000 while they were still in school.
Walters, who to that point only represented black entertainers, was a Colombo family associate, Franzese said.
In 1989, Franzese testified for the government against Walters and Bloom.
Walters met with Harmon and his father during Harmon’s senior year, and in a secretly taped conversation that was aired on the show, explained how the deal would go down.
“I want to make a deal today. I’m willing to come up with a few thousand dollars, cash American for Ronnie,” he said. “In addition to that, on the first of every month, there will be $250 sitting there waiting for him.”
When Harmon’s father asked why they couldn’t wait until after the football season, in order to keep Ronnie Harmon out of trouble, Walters responded, “Why do we have to wait until January? I say, here’s a few thousand dollars. And come Jan. 2, we then send in the paper to the NFL and that’s it.”
https://qns.com/story/2002/07/31/harmon-still-chased-by-fix-rumor-16-years-later/
On the show, which aired last Tuesday, Michael Franzese, a former capo in the Colombo crime family, hints that Harmon, then a high-profile senior running back at Iowa, may have fixed the game.
Harmon, who had fumbled just once all season, coughed up the ball four times in the first half alone and also dropped what appeared to be a sure touchdown catch in the 48-25 loss to underdog UCLA.
“I know it doesn’t look good, that’s for sure,” Franzese said of Harmon’s performance. “I would certainly have been suspicious. . .that he threw the game.”
Harmon, who could not be reached for comment, has in the past denied a part in any fix, but he did admit to taking money under the table from Norby Walters who, along with Lloyd Bloom, paid 58 top college football players a total of $800,000 while they were still in school.
Walters, who to that point only represented black entertainers, was a Colombo family associate, Franzese said.
In 1989, Franzese testified for the government against Walters and Bloom.
Walters met with Harmon and his father during Harmon’s senior year, and in a secretly taped conversation that was aired on the show, explained how the deal would go down.
“I want to make a deal today. I’m willing to come up with a few thousand dollars, cash American for Ronnie,” he said. “In addition to that, on the first of every month, there will be $250 sitting there waiting for him.”
When Harmon’s father asked why they couldn’t wait until after the football season, in order to keep Ronnie Harmon out of trouble, Walters responded, “Why do we have to wait until January? I say, here’s a few thousand dollars. And come Jan. 2, we then send in the paper to the NFL and that’s it.”
Station was injured during that game. Definitely didn't help
Nobody will ever know. I will say the defense wasn’t good and Larry injured really hurt. I do wonder without the early fumbles if we had converted and got up by a couple scores whether UCLA would have been able to get Ball going. I will say we have not had a good tradition in Rose Bowls during my lifetime. I watched the 1981 game on TV and was at the 85, 90 and 15 games in person. And boy were those games ugly.
I had a class with Ronnie during Spring semester of ‘85. He always rode to class on a brand new, bright red Honda Scooter. Those were big back then, and expensive at the time. Always in good looking clothes also. Assumed he might be getting money from somewhere as he appeared to be doing better financially than the average college student....just an observation.
I remember reading the QC Times write-up on Media day before the 85 season. One of the reporters asked David Hudson why he didn't have a mink coat like Harmon. He replied "I'm too poor."
Everyone covering the program knew Harmon was involved in shady dealings.
I don't. On the first fumble, he never secured the hand off. If you look at the second fumble, his knee was clearly down before the ball came out, and if they had replay at that time it would have been overturned. The third and fourth fumbles occurred on pass receptions and again if they had replay the last one would have been called an incomplete pass, and the third one was very close as well. As far as the dropped pass in the endzone, even good receivers drop passes, it happens every game. Yes, Ronnie had a bad game, but I would say the officials did too that day. The loss was much more a result of our defenses inability to stop the Bruins at all that day than it was due to Ronnie's bad day.
