2 MSU games zone vs man

[RocknRollface]

People talk about Iowas athleticism, and yes its below average but the same players that gave up an open look almost every possession the first game played borderline shutdown defense the second time.

The difference is playing man vs zone.

Yes MSUs offense is garbage but one defense gave up open looks, the other didn't and everything else was the same.

Now the last 5 minute of the second game Fran switched to zone and MSU is getting wide open looks again.

Theres is no question anymore which defense Iowa needs to be in the majority of the time.

 

[HawkLogic]

Relying on Zone 100% was not a good strategy. Getting Keegan into the starting lineup makes that starting unit at least somewhat competitive. All the younger guys/backups are at least decent individual defenders....Nunge is even a rim protector. We lost too many close games this season where if Fran had pushed different buttons/lineups/defense a couple baskets or stops would have been wins instead of loss. The schedule is brutal going out...lets hope they get hot and shock the world.

 

[kcgolfer]

Excellent game today. Fran should scrap that zone though.

 

[hawks_dg]

Anyone else notice that they weren’t playing man defense? They were still playing zone, just a rotating/man zone. This is NOT the same as man to man. It allows for quicker switches and against MSU works. It wouldn’t work against faster guard players in my opinion. It would cause more forced switches that would leave players open.

Again, they weren’t playing man to man today.

 

[RocknRollface]

Relying on Zone 100% was not a good strategy. Getting Keegan into the starting lineup makes that starting unit at least somewhat competitive. All the younger guys/backups are at least decent individual defenders....Nunge is even a rim protector. We lost too many close games this season where if Fran had pushed different buttons/lineups/defense a couple baskets or stops would have been wins instead of loss. The schedule is brutal going out...lets hope they get hot and shock the world.

The second Indian game would not have been a loss had Fran stuck with man.

There may come a point where the opponents get more efficient at attacking JBO and Garza in high screens once they have more time to prepare but for the time being its not even close which defense is more effective.

 

[RocknRollface]

Excellent game today. Fran should scrap that zone though.

At least for now.

 

[KcTo]

People talk about Iowas athleticism, and yes its below average but the same players that gave up an open look almost every possession the first game played borderline shutdown defense the second time.

The difference is playing man vs zone.

Yes MSUs offense is garbage but one defense gave up open looks, the other didn't and everything else was the same.

Now the last 5 minute of the second game Fran switched to zone and MSU is getting wide open looks again.

Theres is no question anymore which defense Iowa needs to be in the majority of the time.

IOWA in M2M. Entire game so far
up 10

M2M starting the 2H, extends lead, with out Garza, Murray, and CJF...

I saw it early on too, from page 5 of the game thread. Totally different defensive team

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

The problem is other teams have more, better and aggressive attacking guards who can get to the rim (and finish) than what we saw from MSU today.

And you couple that with their poor 3 pt shooting and Iowa will run you off the floor every time.

If we can continue to improve on at least limiting the points scored off the dribble drive, then we'll live with whatever happens on the 3 pt line.

Though I will say at times I saw much better close-outs from the guys, including JBo and Nunge who have been notorious for getting stuck in no-mans land or are just slow to react to the shooters off the pass.

Nunge played a f***ing phenomenal all-around game today (comparatively speaking), and his defensive effort was a big part of why Iowa shut down any comeback effort before it even started.

 

[RocknRollface]

Anyone else notice that they weren’t playing man defense? They were still playing zone, just a rotating/man zone. This is NOT the same as man to man. It allows for quicker switches and against MSU works. It wouldn’t work against faster guard players in my opinion. It would cause more forced switches that would leave players open.

Again, they weren’t playing man to man today.

I had noticed that they were definitely playing man.

Again, they were playing man to man today.

Seriously, what are you talking about?

 

[RocknRollface]

The problem is other teams have more, better and aggressive attacking guards who can get to the rim (and finish) than what we saw from MSU today.

And you couple that with their poor 3 pt shooting and Iowa will run you off the floor every time.

If we can continue to improve on at least limiting the points scored off the dribble drive, then we'll live with whatever happens on the 3 pt line.

Though I will say at times I saw much better close-outs from the guys, including JBo and Nunge who have been notorious for getting stuck in no-mans land or are just slow to react to the shooters off the pass.

Nunge played a f***ing phenomenal all-around game today (comparatively speaking), and his defensive effort was a big part of why Iowa shut down any comeback effort before it even started.

The reason the close outs were better and they weren't lost is because they weren't playing zone.

I don't think Iowas zone does anything to help with containg quick guards. Its the opposite.

 

[Gary-Waterloo]

I don't hate the zone because, at times, we can't stay in front of anyone and give up layups. What I dont get is how often the zone has two guys guarding one player. That always leaves someone wide open.

 

[HawkLogic]

The problem is other teams have more, better and aggressive attacking guards who can get to the rim (and finish) than what we saw from MSU today.

And you couple that with their poor 3 pt shooting and Iowa will run you off the floor every time.

If we can continue to improve on at least limiting the points scored off the dribble drive, then we'll live with whatever happens on the 3 pt line.

Though I will say at times I saw much better close-outs from the guys, including JBo and Nunge who have been notorious for getting stuck in no-mans land or are just slow to react to the shooters off the pass.

Nunge played a f***ing phenomenal all-around game today (comparatively speaking), and his defensive effort was a big part of why Iowa shut down any comeback effort before it even started.

Combination Zone/ man is what Fran has to do. That combination was 90 percent zone for most of the season and some of the man was with starting lineup with CMAC at undersized CMAC at PF, JBO, Garza...that unit can not defend in any defense. We just played Indiana a couple games back and held them to 36 percent from field and 26percent from 3pt line while playing some man defense. They torched Iowa in Carver with too many wide open 3s. Teams get into a hot streak vs zone and Fran has to make changes.

 

[RocknRollface]

I saw it early on too, from page 5 of the game thread. Totally different defensive team

Same team playing a different defense.

 

[HawkRugged17]

 

[iahawkeyes17]

Anyone else notice that they weren’t playing man defense? They were still playing zone, just a rotating/man zone. This is NOT the same as man to man. It allows for quicker switches and against MSU works. It wouldn’t work against faster guard players in my opinion. It would cause more forced switches that would leave players open.

Again, they weren’t playing man to man today.

yeah they were playing man majority of the game. Not sure what you were watching

as for why fran plays zone and way too much in my opinion. Comes down to 2 things mainly. Our starting guards are just not quick enough and 2nd is I think it keeps Garza from picking up more fouls

 

[RocknRollface]

I don't hate the zone because, at times, we can't stay in front of anyone and give up layups. What I dont get is how often the zone has two guys guarding one player. That always leaves someone wide open.

They haven't stayed in front of anyone playing zone.

Thats the whole point.

None of the good things that are supposed to happen in zone actually materialize when Iowa plays zone.

 

[RocknRollface]

Combination Zone/ man is what Fran has to do. That combination was 90 percent zone for most of the season and some of the man was with starting lineup with CMAC at undersized CMAC at PF, JBO, Garza...that unit can not defend in any defense. We just played Indiana a couple games back and held them to 36 percent from field and 26percent from 3pt line while playing some man defense. They torched Iowa in Carver with too many wide open 3s. Teams get into a hot streak vs zone and Fran has to make changes.

Indiana was another example of man being better at the moment but for some reason Fran went away from it.

Part of the reason its working so much better is opponents are preparing for the zone.

We need to ride the man for now and then once there's more tape on it go back to a mix so that teams can't spend their entire prep time on one defense.

 

[goodbyebobby]

The second Indian game would not have been a loss had Fran stuck with man.

There may come a point where the opponents get more efficient at attacking JBO and Garza in high screens once they have more time to prepare but for the time being its not even close which defense is more effective.

Racist. 😉

 

[RocknRollface]

yeah they were playing man majority of the game. Not sure what you were watching

as for why fran plays zone and way too much in my opinion. Comes down to 2 things mainly. Our starting guards are just not quick enough and 2nd is I think it keeps Garza from picking up more fouls

I agree, thats the reason but its not happening. zone hasn't helped them stay in front of anyone, its basically been the worst of all worlds.

We're not stopping penetration and still letting shooters get shots off with no pressure.

It has helped keep Luka safe but I don't think the trade off is worth it anymore.

We can survive Luka on the bench more than giving up an open look every time down.

 

[iahawkeyes17]

They haven't stayed in front of anyone playing zone.

Thats the whole point.

None of the good things that are supposed to happen in zone actually materialize when Iowa plays zone.

Your last paragraph couldn’t be more true. Least with man even when we get beat off the dribble we aren’t giving up as many open shots as the zone as given up. Especially 3 pointers from the corner.

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

The reason the close outs were better and they weren't lost is because they weren't playing zone.

I don't think Iowas zone does anything to help with containg quick guards. Its the opposite.

They were in zone on a few of those, but yes our zone does little to be disruptive on defense.

The point of a zone is to give up the outside shot while making it tougher to penetrate the lane, but with this team, they would give up too many easy drives because they didn't want to get burned chasing the ball around the perimeter.....which they would still do anyway.

They rarely tried to stick their nose in passing lanes up top, which makes it easier for teams to break down where they want to go with the ball, and we are fairly atrocious at rebounding while in zone.

I do agree that better effort in our man to man is gonna be the key going forward, even though Iowa still has its limitations when certain players are on the floor.....

 

[RocknRollface]

They were in zone on a few of those, but yes our zone does little to be disruptive on defense.

The point of a zone is to give up the outside shot while making it tougher to penetrate the lane, but with this team, they would give up too many easy drives because they didn't want to get burned chasing the ball around the perimeter.....which they would still do anyway.

They rarely tried to stick their nose in passing lanes up top, which makes it easier for teams to break down where they want to go with the ball, and we are fairly atrocious at rebounding while in zone.

I do agree that better effort in our man to man is gonna be the key going forward, even though Iowa still has its limitations when certain players are on the floor.....

Yeah, they mixed it in a bit here in there so I don't doubt what you're saying either.

Iowas never going to be a good defense but that zone hasn't done anything well. It usually looks like they don't understand it conceptually.

And I'm assuming that's because they don't spend that much time on it.

Man is simple to understand atleast.

 

[HawkAssassin]

Jack of all trades, master of none.

Keep things simple. If you want to see an example of that, look at Iowa’s defense on the football field.

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

Jack of all trades, master of none.

Keep things simple. If you want to see an example of that, look at Iowa’s defense on the football field.

Well, at least over a certain time period, we're the kings of the INT......

 

[KcTo]

Yeah, they mixed it in a bit here in there so I don't doubt what you're saying either.

Iowas never going to be a good defense but that zone hasn't done anything well. It usually looks like they don't understand it conceptually.

And I'm assuming that's because they don't spend that much time on it.

Man is simple to understand atleast.

I agree with most everything in your posts, but I disagree that IOWA is never going to be a good defensive team.
#1. Garza + Nunge gives IOWA 2 bigs to control boards and rim protect.
#2. Murray, Wieskamp, and (to a lesser degree) PMac offer length to both defend 3’s and rebounds. I don’t see them getting abused by those driving
#3. JoBo and CJF are those that get abused the most defensively on blow byes, so limiting to only 1 on court at a time, like today, and replacing their minutes with Nunge and Murray is also helpful.
#4. JoeT and Perkins seem to hold their own on defense too. So they don’t shoot, and play plus defense will only help the team D

i believe Iowa can be a very respectable defensive team without degrading their #1 offensive efficiency

 

[RocknRollface]

I agree with most everything in your posts, but I disagree that IOWA is never going to be a good defensive team.
#1. Garza + Nunge gives IOWA 2 bigs to control boards and rim protect.
#2. Murray, Wieskamp, and (to a lesser degree) PMac offer length to both defend 3’s and rebounds. I don’t see them getting abused by those driving
#3. JoBo and CJF are those that get abused the most defensively on blow byes, so limiting to only 1 on court at a time, like today, and replacing their minutes with Nunge and Murray is also helpful.
#4. JoeT and Perkins seem to hold their own on defense too. So they don’t shoot, and play plus defense will only help the team D

i believe Iowa can be a very respectable defensive team without degrading their #1 offensive efficiency

We can all agree they don't play zone well I think. Especially during that losing stretch.

The struggles in man in the past have been playing ball screens with JBO and Luka.

Recently opponents have not attacked it much when we go man , probably because they are preparing for zone.

Theres always going to be a bit of a ceiling with those two in IMO, but even so I think Iowa can be good enough to beat most teams if they stay out of that zone.

And Fran can put personnel groups out there that can be very good at defense when some of the starters are sitting.

The zone may come in handy down the line when teams aren't expecting it.

 

[denmar81]

11 offensive boards for MSU today, 20 last time they played.

 

[KcTo]

We can all agree they don't play zone well I think. Especially during that losing stretch.

The struggles in man in the past have been playing ball screens with JBO and Luka.

Recently opponents have not attacked it much when we go man , probably because they are preparing for zone.

Theres always going to be a bit of a ceiling with those two in IMO, but even so I think Iowa can be good enough to beat most teams if they stay out of that zone.

And Fran can put personnel groups out there that can be very good at defense when some of the starters are sitting.

The zone may come in handy down the line when teams aren't expecting it.

Agree, Definitely that the Jobo / luka ball screen can create issues, but IMHO, its worth the occasional scores versus teams raining in 3’s and getting 2nd Chance points

 

[RocknRollface]

Agree, Definitely that the Jobo / luka ball screen can create issues, but IMHO, its worth the occasional scores versus teams raining in 3’s and getting 2nd Chance points

Totally agree.

Its a matter of being average to good vs bad to terrible.

Iowa can be average to even good in man. At least until opponents get very deliberate in attacking that one thing, at which point then you can mix zone back in to counter that game plan.

 

[RocknRollface]

11 offensive boards for MSU today, 20 last time they played.

I was to lazy to look that up but great point.

Another benefit of man.

 

[littlez]

The problem is other teams have more, better and aggressive attacking guards who can get to the rim (and finish) than what we saw from MSU today.

And you couple that with their poor 3 pt shooting and Iowa will run you off the floor every time.

If we can continue to improve on at least limiting the points scored off the dribble drive, then we'll live with whatever happens on the 3 pt line.

Though I will say at times I saw much better close-outs from the guys, including JBo and Nunge who have been notorious for getting stuck in no-mans land or are just slow to react to the shooters off the pass.

Nunge played a f***ing phenomenal all-around game today (comparatively speaking), and his defensive effort was a big part of why Iowa shut down any comeback effort before it even started.

Not sure why you had to throw in “comparatively speaking” about Nunge. He was better than Luka today 18-12. Can we just admit he played a really good game and leave it at that?

 

[hawks_dg]

I had noticed that they were definitely playing man.

Again, they were playing man to man today.

Seriously, what are you talking about?

No, no they were not playing man to man. It's called match up zone defense. It's fairly common and when it's done correctly, it even looks like man to man. It's still a zone defense.

Basketball Match-up Zone Defense, Coach's Clipboard Basketball

Match-up zone defense is a zone defense that looks like man-to-man, and combines elements of M2M defense (on ball), and zone defense (away from the ball).

www.coachesclipboard.net

How you know it wasn't man to man, is they rarely were guarding the same players over and over. It's used to create confusion and help cover weaker spots in the man to man. This is what they were doing.

 

[hawks_dg]

yeah they were playing man majority of the game. Not sure what you were watching

as for why fran plays zone and way too much in my opinion. Comes down to 2 things mainly. Our starting guards are just not quick enough and 2nd is I think it keeps Garza from picking up more fouls

It wasn't man to man. It's a match zone defense. When done well, it looks like man to man, but it isn't. I was surprised to see this today actually. They typically go to a man to man (on occasion) but they rolled out this match zone defense that I don't recall seeing before. Maybe they have done it before, but this was a match zone that was working very well.

Take a look at this, you can see the similarities if you wish.

Basketball Match-up Zone Defense, Coach's Clipboard Basketball

Match-up zone defense is a zone defense that looks like man-to-man, and combines elements of M2M defense (on ball), and zone defense (away from the ball).

www.coachesclipboard.net

 

[2432Hawk]

Our problem with zone is often personnel.

I like our zone with the bench at times.

The Rutgers game we had great length and quickness and the zone was effective with...

Garza
Nunge
PMac
Ke. Murray
Toussaint

 

[RocknRollface]

No, no they were not playing man to man. It's called match up zone defense. It's fairly common and when it's done correctly, it even looks like man to man. It's still a zone defense.

Basketball Match-up Zone Defense, Coach's Clipboard Basketball

Match-up zone defense is a zone defense that looks like man-to-man, and combines elements of M2M defense (on ball), and zone defense (away from the ball).

www.coachesclipboard.net

How you know it wasn't man to man, is they rarely were guarding the same players over and over. It's used to create confusion and help cover weaker spots in the man to man. This is what they were doing.

You're incorrect.

When one defender follows his guy all over the court. That's called man to man.

Its really easy to tell the difference.

Its doesn't matter who a player is matched up on different trips.

Iowa actually frequently plays a match up zone. They played man most of today's until the last 5 minutes or so.

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

Not sure why you had to throw in “comparatively speaking” about Nunge. He was better than Luka today 18-12. Can we just admit he played a really good game and leave it at that?

No.

 

[iahawkeyes17]

It wasn't man to man. It's a match zone defense. When done well, it looks like man to man, but it isn't. I was surprised to see this today actually. They typically go to a man to man (on occasion) but they rolled out this match zone defense that I don't recall seeing before. Maybe they have done it before, but this was a match zone that was working very well.

Take a look at this, you can see the similarities if you wish.

Basketball Match-up Zone Defense, Coach's Clipboard Basketball

Match-up zone defense is a zone defense that looks like man-to-man, and combines elements of M2M defense (on ball), and zone defense (away from the ball).

www.coachesclipboard.net

Iowa was in man D most of the game. Played matchup zone in HS at times and for vast majority of the game Iowa didn’t employ it today. Pretty obvious Iowa wasn’t in it when you watch ball screens especially on the ball handler it was good old straight man to man D.

 

[littlez]

WTF game we’re some of you watching? We played man almost the entire game. Not even close to a match up zone.

 

[littlez]

No.

Thanks.

 

[bansheexyz]

I say we keep playing man the rest of the year. That way we have a good sample size to see which one we should use in the tourney.