2 steps forward 4 steps back

[slicone]

I watched a lot of the matches yesterday and these new additions to the rules are really bad and kinda scary. Gives the officials way too much power. They are giving 2 points and a caution quite randomly. The very first alarm bell saw was last week watching two high school kids wrestling. With about 8 seconds left the give the 2 and caution. It decided the match. Keep in mind I am someone who has basically, never seen a stalling call I have disagreed with. (yes that guy yelling stalling when they are shaking hands thats me)


Derringer vs Marseller 1 minute into the second period ringer get put on the clock, Marsteller gets the point when no points are scored making it 2-1 ringer. Five to 10 seconds and 2 or 3 (mostly) half shots by Marseller and somehow they give a caution and 2 to Ringer. I have no idea on how it possibly was justified. One thing that really bothers me was no one seemed that bothered by this. The announcer even made the comment saying. Well , Kolat is in his corner he knows all about getting weird freestyle calls. wtf???


I really dont want to get into the Jo, Reathford match other than to say it was probably called correctly by the letter of the rules. That is a huge problem, Oliver got 5 points without scoring a point. He got out wrestled the whole match, there was never one point in the match that he was more aggressive. Basically went for a hail marry desperation move, got stopped (on his back) and
got (probably correctly by the stupid rule) awarded 2 points


I am kinda hoping something like this happens in the Dake Burroughs match tonight to shine a light on how stupid these rules are. I remember a couple years ago the U.S.misinterpreted an "almost takedown " rule. We were the only country calling it, and it went away fast. I sure hope these 2 new rules go away as fast. The name is a paradox in its own right, correct throw???? If it was correct you would have scored without this dumb rule.

I have seen matches where someone got out wrestled and still won the match. I think the Oliver Reathaford match was a whole different degree. I dont think anyone would deny that Zain was clearly the winner under almost any rule set imaginable. These rules are beyond imaginable

Keep in mind I say this as a true Penn State hater (almost as much as an Iowa homer). Wait till it happens to one of our guys. It is just a matter of time.

ps.. also forgot to mention they gave Bo a gift vs Perry. They gave him 4 points to get him back in the match, that was in no way shape or form his 4. It was Perrys move, he picked Bo all the way off the ground blocked his knee, popped his hips and clearly put him on his back. I really cant believe they reviewed that and still gave Bo the points. So its not just the rues that need some work, get officials that actually know what what a wrestling move is! That was an 8 point swing in match points(sometimes that can make a difference)

 

[Gusaford]

Oliver really did so little, it's hard to feel that the application of the existing rules served their purpose of rewarding the better wrestler. I really don't know what Retherferd did to get the facemush penalty. He put his hand on Oliver's face the whole match, on repeated occasions both before and after the penalty. It either should have been called 100 times and Zain should have been disqualified after 2 minutes, or not at all. Seemed arbitrary as to when the ref warned him about it.

 

[Jackhawk87]

Oliver really did so little, it's hard to feel that the application of the existing rules served their purpose of rewarding the better wrestler. I really don't know what Retherferd did to get the facemush penalty. He put his hand on Oliver's face the whole match, on repeated occasions both before and after the penalty. It either should have been called 100 times and Zain should have been disqualified after 2 minutes, or not at all. Seemed arbitrary as to when the ref warned him about it.

I would agree with all of this. The 2 points for the hand in the face seems particularly punitive and was somewhat random. Could have been called several other times against Zain. That said, I like the spirit of the rule. Putting your palm in someone's face is not an offensive move and should be stopped (and some wrestlers do this a lot - including Zain). If the rule serves it's purpose, wrestlers will stop doing it and it will make it a better sport.

 

[dicemen99]

Been in a conversation about this on twitter this morning. Glad you brought up the other examples, as they are rampant, but it was highlighted by the JO-Zain match where you had two separate examples of the new 2 pt scoring making an appearance so it emphasized it.

No evidence for below, but just a gut feeling.

The only time we ever saw the world wrestling community working together was when wrestling was on the chopping blocks for the Olympics. What resulted was some good rules - everybody pulling together for the common good - that incentivize actual scoring. Most notably the increase to 2pts for a TD, which definitely increased action on feet and made matches more exciting with the possibility of comebacks more in play. The shot clock rule also ended up being a good thing as it basically forced some action after the initial feeling out period and got the match going.

So we get a good thing going in freestyle - at least from an American point of view, all seem to agree that the new rules are improving the sport - everyone starts to feel comfortable with wrestling's spot in the Olympics. So what happens? Lobbying starts coming in from all different factions, compromises are made and changes instituted without regards to effects on existing rules.

Cautions and correct throws are now worth the exact same as TDs. Which effectively brings us back to where we were before the good set of rule changes, except it is still worth more than a step-out (which is good). Also, since exposure wasn't increased, we have basically seen exposure greatly minimized after the two sets of rule changes are implemented. But, hey, it's great that the scoreboard reads higher numbers, lol.

Secondly, with the advent of the shot clock we have entered an era where it is not uncommon for each wrestler to have a passivity warning and at least one having two by the time we enter the 2nd period. Now, we institute the caution and 2 with the shot clock rules still in place and emphasized, and we basically have a situation where referee judgement has the ability to decide a closely contested match. We've seen how that works on the international level:

It is what it is, as on an international level it is a sport that is governed by jingoistic representatives. Obviously, it takes a crisis for UWW reps to do what is in the sports best interest.

 

[AFHawk86]

It's frustrating to watch the sport I've been involved with for 40 years and not know who scored and in some cases who won.

 

[IAChief32]

I was watching a Marinelli match and he was ahead 2-0. After a long injury T/O, took the guy down and hit two laces for what should have an 8-0 lead but they called it over for a TF. I don't think they gave him 4 on the second TD because it didn't look like they guy's back was exposed. Anyways, it was weird.

http://www.flowrestling.org/video/1...ederholt-united-states-air-force#.WQTEElMrJE4

 

[IAChief32]

The Frank/Kennedy match was crazy with the finger thing. They were also saying that if you hold onto a wrist too long without some type of action, they will call that too. Going straight to two points after a warning on finger grabs is stupid.

 

[pablow]

I like the new rules. I particularly like the criteria rule - somebody is always winning and somebody's always losing. I don't like the D1 overtime because the wrestlers like to do nothing in the 3rd and go to OT.

 

[dicemen99]

I was watching a Marinelli match and he was ahead 2-0. After a long injury T/O, took the guy down and hit two laces for what should have an 8-0 lead but they called it over for a TF. I don't think they gave him 4 on the second TD because it didn't look like they guy's back was exposed. Anyways, it was weird.

http://www.flowrestling.org/video/1...ederholt-united-states-air-force#.WQTEElMrJE4

TF is 8 points lead in Greco, 10 in FS

 

[IAChief32]

TF is 8 points lead in Greco, 10 in FS

Yes Dice which is my point...Marinelli only had an 8 point lead. 2 TDs, and two turns.

 

[dicemen99]

Yes Dice which is my point...Marinelli only had an 8 point lead. 2 TDs, and two turns.

My bad...misread Marinelli for Manville - B & W glasses on...

 

[pumpdog20]

They are hurting wrestling by totally undervaluing the takedown. In folk, a TD is only one point more than an escape even though you let the guy up most of the time.

In freestyle you can take the shot get rolled through for the same amount of points as taking the risk. Why do they make this so hard on themselves?

 

[minnhawkeye]

Must admit I have to watch more free style and most likely still won't understand some of the way the scoring is done. Like in Okl n Stanford finals match why did Mardsen get a point they where just locked up and time ran out but they gave him points and he wins.

 

[Jackhawk87]

Must admit I have to watch more free style and most likely still won't understand some of the way the scoring is done. Like in Okl n Stanford finals match why did Mardsen get a point they where just locked up and time ran out but they gave him points and he wins.

I am kind of with you there. Some rules are very open to interpretation in free, but the refs are also ruining folkstyle with lack of stalling calls, no push out, endless ankle grabbing scrambles, etc. I love folk, but most matches have become pretty boring. Freestyle certainly has it's problems, but it does produce a more active, aggressive product to watch and enjoy. I prefer folk, but it needs to change.

As for the end of the Marsden match, that was just robbery. That exact thing (backing up a few steps but not out with unders/overs) happens in almost every match - some numerous times in a match and you don't get the 2 point penalty. The ref wanted to interject himself in the match with 1 second left and decide the outcome - and did.