$25k a year soccer academy coming to South Bend

[hawkmart]

Just curious as I never played growing up and my kids are super young, but why would the poor Mexican kid not make the varsity HS team if he was better? Or are you saying the rich kids are now better since they’ve had so much training?

Have only seen something like this in the Iowa City district but before Liberty started playing. My oldest played up until his jr year. At City and West players had to go through tryouts due to just the number of kids that wanted to play. Varsity was all club players. There was a JV2 team that would have mostly non club players on it. JV1 was fresh/soph club players. The chances for a poor Mexican kid playing Varsity with no club experience was almost nil. The club kids were all familiar with each other and the varsity coach was also part of a clubs coaching staff. Things may have changed now with Liberty opening up and more opportunities.

 

[Pinehawk]

The above is mostly true. But, I think it is a familiarity with the players, from Club exposure, that gives many Club players an advantage to make those teams.
A rec league player could make the team. And, they have. But, the varsity roster is so limited. Many year round club players don’t make it.
I think I heard around 200+ kids tryout during tryout week at City and West. About 18 make that final roster.
It’s going to be hard for a coach to think he saw enough in a week, to displace a Club kid he may have coached or known about for a few years.

 

[Pinehawk]

Soccer still doesn’t pull the top athletes though. Due to many reasons, scholarships, money, popularity and more.
Recently, know of a kid who is/was a top level soccer player. Club success, made the Iowa ODP team. State Champ x 2, Captain of State Team, etc.
But, when the time came he chose football and to walk on for college. And, soccer loses another top talent to another sport.
Don’t blame him one bit. But, this happens across the country.

 

[General Tso]

$25k to send your kid to
- a non accredited school
- founded by a 23 year old with an online degree likely using his parent's money
- in an old Y buidling
- focused on a game
- using an old baseball field
- with 6 teachers

Sounds like a great idea.

 

[Jackie Treehorn]

Soccer still doesn’t pull the top athletes though. Due to many reasons, scholarships, money, popularity and more.
Recently, know of a kid who is/was a top level soccer player. Club success, made the Iowa ODP team. State Champ x 2, Captain of State Team, etc.
But, when the time came he chose football and to walk on for college. And, soccer loses another top talent to another sport.
Don’t blame him one bit. But, this happens across the country.

Sounds like a decent club/high school player, but I bet he didn’t get offered a penny to play soccer in college, so I’m not sure what exactly soccer “lost” here? I know of a kid who made the National ODP team (top 25 kids in the country) and he accepted a partial ride at Drake. The top talent level is insane. A good club, ODP, and high school player in Iowa is a dime a dozen.

 

[HawkOptimist]

Travel ball and pay to play sports academies have really diluted the talent levels of soccer and baseball in America. Probably why you’re seeing a huge infusion of Latin American players in MLB over the past few years. Same with soccer and all the suburban white kids playing.

There’s no substitute for natural athleticism. Lot of highly trained but physically limited athletes out there.

Bingo. Anyone with a checkbook and time can put their kids in travel or club baseball, softball, soccer, etc. That entitles them to proclaim little Johnny or Jill as “good” at sports, when in reality it just means mom and dad have the money to do it. Kid often isn’t anything special.

Whether a poor kid from the ghetto or wealthy kid from the burbs, talent is talent. If a kid has it, he or she will be found. Especially in this day and age.

 

[hawkedoff]

Sounds like a decent club/high school player, but I bet he didn’t get offered a penny to play soccer in college, so I’m not sure what exactly soccer “lost” here? I know of a kid who made the National ODP team (top 25 kids in the country) and he accepted a partial ride at Drake. The top talent level is insane. A good club, ODP, and high school player in Iowa is a dime a dozen.

I wouldn't say the top level talent in Iowa is a dime a dozen. I would say ODP is not what it used to be and that making the national pool is a great accomplishment now but isn't really the national pool. I would also say a college coach is going to take a chance on getting a kid from one of the bigger clubs and create a pipeline into that club over getting a single player from Iowa unless that one player is truly better than everyone. In other words the kids with the same level talent from the right club is getting the spot even if the kid from Iowa would perform just as well or even a little better based on brand name and future ability to recruit that better club.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

$25k to send your kid to
- a non accredited school
- founded by a 23 year old with an online degree likely using his parent's money
- in an old Y buidling
- focused on a game
- using an old baseball field
- with 6 teachers

Sounds like a great idea.

I don't think his degree is online unless I missed something. I am familiar with Bethal University. It's a very small school but it is a real physical school with a real physical campus. I know where it is. They have sports teams too although their sports teams are about as low level as it gets NAIA Division 2.

The rest is correct.

I hope he succeeds because if he was successful I see it as being good for the area. But I don't believe that he will be successful and as I said, even if I had that kind of money and a kid that was talented at soccer there seem to be a lot better options available for development.

Bingo. Anyone with a checkbook and time can put their kids in travel or club baseball, softball, soccer, etc. That entitles them to proclaim little Johnny or Jill as “good” at sports, when in reality it just means mom and dad have the money to do it. Kid often isn’t anything special.

Whether a poor kid from the ghetto or wealthy kid from the burbs, talent is talent. If a kid has it, he or she will be found. Especially in this day and age.

Ehh I am not sure about that. Like I said soccer is more skill than athleticism although athleticism helps.

The whole idea of the best athletes not playing soccer and that's why we arn't as good as other nations is actually entirely false. I've watched a lot of USMNT games and I've never seen one game where they lost because the other team had better athletes. In fact Landon Donavon was good precisely because he was often one of the best athletes on the field.

They lose because the other team had better tactics and more skill on the ball. Or in the case of the last World Cup qualification because many on the team didn't want to play hard. (I'm still mad as hell about those games. Never seen soccer players play so flipping lazy.)

Thing is that Europe and South America have vastly superior development systems because their extremely wealthy pro-teams would have youth teams and these youth teams were coached by professional coaches who's only job was coaching and developing youth soccer players into multi-million dollar athletes. And they would only play against the best players their age. Whereas in the US prior to the MLS forming academies a soccer player wouldn't meet a professional soccer coach until they were in college and was usually playing against inferior competition the entire time.

Of course the opposite effect happened with the women's game. Since we had Title IX, women had opportunities to play in high school and college whereas up until recently pro-teams in Europe didn't fund women's soccer because there was no money in it. While it's improving there still isn't nearly the opportunities for women to play in Europe as there are here.

That's the nitty gritty of why the US is behind the 8 ball in men's soccer but dominates women's soccer. Has nothing to do with not having the best athletes.

That having been said . . . the cost of travel team soccer unnecessarily restricts your player pool which means there is not as much competition as there should be. So in the end it's still a problem, but it's not as much a problem of not having good enough athletes, but more a problem of not having nearly as much competition for spots as there should be.

 

[hawkedoff]

Bingo. Anyone with a checkbook and time can put their kids in travel or club baseball, softball, soccer, etc. That entitles them to proclaim little Johnny or Jill as “good” at sports, when in reality it just means mom and dad have the money to do it. Kid often isn’t anything special.

Whether a poor kid from the ghetto or wealthy kid from the burbs, talent is talent. If a kid has it, he or she will be found. Especially in this day and age.

Not really though. Aau in basketball has taken over and if you aren't playing aau you aren't getting recruited. Your model only works if you are a transformational talent...then you will get found. If you are a player that will be good but not great or if you are a kid that needs to grow a bit more or develop then it's really unlikely you will be found unless you are plugged into the club culture in this country.

 

[bdcolt45er]

Sounds like a decent club/high school player, but I bet he didn’t get offered a penny to play soccer in college, so I’m not sure what exactly soccer “lost” here? I know of a kid who made the National ODP team (top 25 kids in the country) and he accepted a partial ride at Drake. The top talent level is insane. A good club, ODP, and high school player in Iowa is a dime a dozen.

I always cringe a bit when somebody suggests that travel soccer could be an investment for college. NCAA soccer programs are allotted 9.9 scholarships per year which they spread around to @an average of 29 players.

If you can afford it and your kid enjoys that's great. Travel sports can be an investment in your child but I think that investment is more to do with the benefits of sports in terms of discipline, teamwork etc and not directly related to them getting a scholarship or a professional career.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

I always cringe a bit when somebody suggests that travel soccer could be an investment for college. NCAA soccer programs are allotted 9.9 scholarships per year which they spread around to @an average of 29 players.

If you can afford it and your kid enjoys that's great. Travel sports can be an investment in your child but I think that investment is more to do with the benefits of sports in terms of discipline, teamwork etc and not directly related to them getting a scholarship or a professional career.

I agree as an investment for college it's stupid. With the amount that is often put into that one could simply put that money away into a college fund and probably at least fund a public school.

And the second is a near certainty while the first is a gamble.

I think a lot of people just have unrealistic dreams about their children becoming big time athletes.

My 6 year old has said she wants to be a doctor. I don't think I will be able to help her much if any financially with that. . . but I have more dreams about her being a doctor (if that continues to be her desire) than I do of her playing any sport past high school.

With my 2 sons, who are 7 and going to be 5 shortly, my dreams are mostly that they will be able to take care of themselves and maybe have a family. They are both autistic and so there are many days when I start feeling like they might need some else to care for them the rest of their lives.

 

[Jackie Treehorn]

I wouldn't say the top level talent in Iowa is a dime a dozen. I would say ODP is not what it used to be and that making the national pool is a great accomplishment now but isn't really the national pool. I would also say a college coach is going to take a chance on getting a kid from one of the bigger clubs and create a pipeline into that club over getting a single player from Iowa unless that one player is truly better than everyone. In other words the kids with the same level talent from the right club is getting the spot even if the kid from Iowa would perform just as well or even a little better based on brand name and future ability to recruit that better club.

It’s a dime a dozen at the accomplishments he described. If you aren’t even making the regional pool team for odp, then there are thousands of kids just as good. Also, agree with you on odp. Iowa competes very well vs other states in odp, but some of that has to do with us having no big club/mls opportunity. My kid’s odp team lost one of their top players to Sporting KC last year. He’s not coming back to odp.

 

[hawkedoff]

It’s a dime a dozen at the accomplishments he described. If you aren’t even making the regional pool team for odp, then there are thousands of kids just as good. Also, agree with you on odp. Iowa competes very well vs other states in odp, but some of that has to do with us having no big club/mls opportunity. My kid’s odp team lost one of their top players to Sporting KC last year. He’s not coming back to odp.

The top kids from other states aren't playing odp at all. The Iowa odp team is holding their own because they are playing the JV from other states and the iowa kids all know each other already. It isn't the path to the national team it was a generation ago. In truth it wasn't really a path back then either but people thought it was so they all played if they were good.

The US soccer federation is populated by people from the biggest clubs and they feed and get fed by those clubs. It has always been this way and most of the decisions are about the confirmation bias that occurs surrounding this belief that their clubs and ones like it are better than everyone else. Their decisions surround making their club and that system more solid vs truly identifying and developing talent from anywhere. They lost a battle a bit with the MLS academies developing but even that system is biased towards the big cities and is essentially the same model as they have always pushed. A poor or middle class kid from downstate Illinois is going to travel to Chicago? Never going to happen. So it self perpetuates because there is enough population density in Chicago to ignore the kid from downstate.

It's interesting because the NFL did a survey a few years ago and more than half of the players in the NFL came from small towns. They get recruited by the major universities and then launch into the nfl but the majority started out in small high schools and small towns.

That is the opposite of what soccer has done and continues to do. It is a rich kid sport and that is the reason we have not had success at the top levels. It isn't that the most athletic kids won't play soccer....it is that soccer ignores kids unless they have the right resume

 

[bdcolt45er]

The top kids from other states aren't playing odp at all. The Iowa odp team is holding their own because they are playing the JV from other states and the iowa kids all know each other already. It isn't the path to the national team it was a generation ago. In truth it wasn't really a path back then either but people thought it was so they all played if they were good.

The US soccer federation is populated by people from the biggest clubs and they feed and get fed by those clubs. It has always been this way and most of the decisions are about the confirmation bias that occurs surrounding this belief that their clubs and ones like it are better than everyone else. Their decisions surround making their club and that system more solid vs truly identifying and developing talent from anywhere. They lost a battle a bit with the MLS academies developing but even that system is biased towards the big cities and is essentially the same model as they have always pushed. A poor or middle class kid from downstate Illinois is going to travel to Chicago? Never going to happen. So it self perpetuates because there is enough population density in Chicago to ignore the kid from downstate.

It's interesting because the NFL did a survey a few years ago and more than half of the players in the NFL came from small towns. They get recruited by the major universities and then launch into the nfl but the majority started out in small high schools and small towns.

That is the opposite of what soccer has done and continues to do. It is a rich kid sport and that is the reason we have not had success at the top levels. It isn't that the most athletic kids won't play soccer....it is that soccer ignores kids unless they have the right resume

I think the idea that the other sports are drawing away too many athletes is a flawed concept. First of all the US has a large population compared to the countries they are competing with. Additionally the US is often equal or superior to their opponents from an atheletic standpoint. Their deficiencies tend to be in technical and tactical skills.
More importantly I would argue that a lot of the athletes in American sports aren't well suited for soccer. Basketball and football push the extremes of human body types. Soccer players are more typical in size. Flipping this scenario if Messi, or Luka Modric, Pele, grew up in the US what sport would they playing. I imagine Pulisic has atheletism to be a good basketball player but would always be limited by his height and slightness. But in soccer a low center of gravity can be an asset. To be sure I can imagine Haaland, or Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Pogba making it as a basketball player or a wide receiver. I suspect there is a large pool of potential soccer players that haven't been tapped into.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

I think the idea that the other sports are drawing away too many athletes is a flawed concept. First of all the US has a large population compared to the countries they are competing with. Additionally the US is often equal or superior to their opponents from an atheletic standpoint. Their deficiencies tend to be in technical and tactical skills.
More importantly I would argue that a lot of the athletes in American sports aren't well suited for soccer. Basketball and football push the extremes of human body types. Soccer players are more typical in size. Flipping this scenario if Messi, or Luka Modric, Pele, grew up in the US what sport would they playing. I imagine Pulisic has atheletism to be a good basketball player but would always be limited by his height and slightness. But in soccer a low center of gravity can be an asset. To be sure I can imagine Haaland, or Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Pogba making it as a basketball player or a wide receiver. I suspect there is a large pool of potential soccer players that haven't been tapped into.

Taller players are only really of benefit inside of the box . . . so center forwards and center backs they tend to go for taller players. For most of the rest of the players height can be a negative because it's the shorter players who often have the superior dribbling skills.

 

[hawkedoff]

I think the idea that the other sports are drawing away too many athletes is a flawed concept. First of all the US has a large population compared to the countries they are competing with. Additionally the US is often equal or superior to their opponents from an atheletic standpoint. Their deficiencies tend to be in technical and tactical skills.
More importantly I would argue that a lot of the athletes in American sports aren't well suited for soccer. Basketball and football push the extremes of human body types. Soccer players are more typical in size. Flipping this scenario if Messi, or Luka Modric, Pele, grew up in the US what sport would they playing. I imagine Pulisic has atheletism to be a good basketball player but would always be limited by his height and slightness. But in soccer a low center of gravity can be an asset. To be sure I can imagine Haaland, or Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Pogba making it as a basketball player or a wide receiver. I suspect there is a large pool of potential soccer players that haven't been tapped into.

I agree completely and have always thought that argument was flawed. When most Americans say athlete what they really mean is football or basketball player and body type. There is an arrogance that goes with it as if a guy like pulisic or messi aren't tremendous athletes. A kid that runs a 4 minute mile is a tremendous athlete and yet in our culture people would and do say stupid shit about that kid and his athletic ability.

A lot of the kids that are currently too short for basketball would be tremendous soccer players but they don't see the sport at all. They play basketball.

 

[MepoDawg#]

It’s a dime a dozen at the accomplishments he described. If you aren’t even making the regional pool team for odp, then there are thousands of kids just as good. Also, agree with you on odp. Iowa competes very well vs other states in odp, but some of that has to do with us having no big club/mls opportunity. My kid’s odp team lost one of their top players to Sporting KC last year. He’s not coming back to odp.

I’m familiar with that age group ODP and the player who went to Sporting. It was definitely the right choice for him. I don’t think Iowa ODP is what it it’s supposed to be. Iowa only competes with other states because other states best players aren’t playing ODP, they’re in academies already.

It’s hard paying all that money for club soccer and ODP when the scholarships available for soccer players are few in number and not worth much. Better hope they’re really good academically.

 

[Jackie Treehorn]

I’m familiar with that age group ODP and the player who went to Sporting. It was definitely the right choice for him. I don’t think Iowa ODP is what it it’s supposed to be. Iowa only competes with other states because other states best players aren’t playing ODP, they’re in academies already.

It’s hard paying all that money for club soccer and ODP when the scholarships available for soccer players are few in number and not worth much. Better hope they’re really good academically.

True, but that’s where parents have to be real with themselves and their kids. Play club and ODP for the experience, not for a path to get a college scholarship.

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

Played on several state championship club teams, played on Iowa ODP many years, played at state with my high school team, the small Iowa schools and Drake (Bill keoppen was still there and in the prime of his assholeness) were the only teams that even looked at me until I started doing showcases in sophomore and junior year of High school. I think it was my ability to go play with a variety of players well that got me the looks I finally got. This club is just going to be a way for soccer moms to put a super elite sticker on the SUV. Ill never forget going out to Surf cup with the best group of guys our age from Iowa and getting our asses kicked by a group of Mexicans wearing basketball shorts. This game is beautiful because you basically need a ball and can make goals out of anything, 25k memberships are not required.

 

[hawkedoff]

True, but that’s where parents have to be real with themselves and their kids. Play club and ODP for the experience, not for a path to get a college scholarship.

When my kids were playing soccer I would listen to all these parents and the club coaches go on about how their kid will get a scholarship or play in college. I would watch the kid play and while he would be a good player I would know right away it wasn't going to happen. There were a couple players that were a maybe in my mind and one or two that I thought could make the roster and play division one but the vast majority were no where near what these people were thinking. I'm old and would watch them play and know I could beat them with my weak foot. Not just beat them but embarrass them with my weak foot. And yet these people were convinced their kid was on their way to the pros someday. The club system is broken completely and isn't about the kids really at all. It is about lining the pockets of adults that are selling false dreams and parents that set aside common sense because they want to feel important and they want so badly for their kid to be successful. They of course have zero idea what that actually means or what it looks like other than their club beat some other club in some tournament and therefore they are better. Or their kid is playing for sporting KC or Busch in st louis back in the day. It is a status symbol and it self perpetuates and it is BS. There was a great article a few years back from an all pro hockey player talking about youth sports and how sick that culture has become. I will see if I can find it and post it. He basically said he is watching these kids spend hundreds and hundreds of hours on these junior hockey travel clubs to become him and none of them will make it. It is being sold and it is sad

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

When my kids were playing soccer I would listen to all these parents and the club coaches go on about how their kid will get a scholarship or play in college. I would watch the kid play and while he would be a good player I would know right away it wasn't going to happen. There were a couple players that were a maybe in my mind and one or two that I thought could make the roster and play division one but the vast majority were no where near what these people were thinking. I'm old and would watch them play and know I could beat them with my weak foot. Not just beat them but embarrass them with my weak foot. And yet these people were convinced their kid was on their way to the pros someday. The club system is broken completely and isn't about the kids really at all. It is about lining the pockets of adults that are selling false dreams and parents that set aside common sense because they want to feel important and they want so badly for their kid to be successful. They of course have zero idea what that actually means or what it looks like other than their club beat some other club in some tournament and therefore they are better. Or their kid is playing for sporting KC or Busch in st louis back in the day. It is a status symbol and it self perpetuates and it is BS. There was a great article a few years back from an all pro hockey player talking about youth sports and how sick that culture has become. I will see if I can find it and post it. He basically said he is watching these kids spend hundreds and hundreds of hours on these junior hockey travel clubs to become him and none of them will make it. It is being sold and it is sad

Isn't that sort of true with all club sports though? Parents spend a ton of money thinking they are raising pro-ball players when in reality the best their kid will ever do is maybe play D3 in college. . . if that.

 

[hawkedoff]

I didn't find the article I was thinking about but this one is better.

NHL: Youth hockey in Michigan

In ESPN the Magazine's Kids in Sports issue, Tom Farrey writes that rebels in hockey-obsessed Michigan who encourage kids to play a variety of sports may the the saviors of NHL's future.

www.espn.com

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

When my kids were playing soccer I would listen to all these parents and the club coaches go on about how their kid will get a scholarship or play in college. I would watch the kid play and while he would be a good player I would know right away it wasn't going to happen. There were a couple players that were a maybe in my mind and one or two that I thought could make the roster and play division one but the vast majority were no where near what these people were thinking. I'm old and would watch them play and know I could beat them with my weak foot. Not just beat them but embarrass them with my weak foot. And yet these people were convinced their kid was on their way to the pros someday. The club system is broken completely and isn't about the kids really at all. It is about lining the pockets of adults that are selling false dreams and parents that set aside common sense because they want to feel important and they want so badly for their kid to be successful. They of course have zero idea what that actually means or what it looks like other than their club beat some other club in some tournament and therefore they are better. Or their kid is playing for sporting KC or Busch in st louis back in the day. It is a status symbol and it self perpetuates and it is BS. There was a great article a few years back from an all pro hockey player talking about youth sports and how sick that culture has become. I will see if I can find it and post it. He basically said he is watching these kids spend hundreds and hundreds of hours on these junior hockey travel clubs to become him and none of them will make it. It is being sold and it is sad

Another thing I find funny after going through it with my sisters children is the parents talking about scholarships when the kid is like 12. The guys that play at the next level are not the ones that hit puberty early they are the guys who make soccer priority 1.2.3 and 4 when they are 16 and 17.

 

[hawkedoff]

Isn't that sort of true with all club sports though? Parents spend a ton of money thinking they are raising pro-ball players when in reality the best their kid will ever do is maybe play D3 in college. . . if that.

Yes. The truth is most of us are average and we may skew towards the upper end of average but that isn't quite the same thing as being elite. The problem with club ball is that it limits the ability of those that can't pay and by doing so completely gets rid of opportunity for those that may be on the upper edge of average or may even be elite. If you don't get to play at all you don't get to play. Or if you aren't on the travel club you don't think you are good enough and you quit. Or the high school coach also works for or used to work for the club team or okayed for the club and anyone outside the club is viewed as less.

 

[SoDakHawk]

Although I am fuzzy on the details, as I have not asked real specific questions, I do know a well to do family that has their 15'ish year old son in a program like this...only for hockey, not soccer. I was pretty surprised to learn that they essentially shipped their son off to an academy for youth hockey...but they did.

So...there may well be some soccer minded folks that would ante up to get their kids the best soccer instruction, etc. Sounds kind of crazy to me.

Come to think of it...one of my sons was doing pretty well as a youth soccer player 15'ish years ago and we were encouraged to send him to some sort of Olympic development camp for additional, specialized training, etc.

It felt like a money grab to me and I really didn't think about it too long before declining the invitation. After all, who was going to mow the lawn for me if our son was living elsewhere? But I think there is a market there for wealthy parents who want to "give their kid every opportunity for success", etc.

This is common for hockey and has been the way in the sport for decades. Some players go off to hockey academies, what do you think East Coast Prep hockey is? Shattuck St. Mary's in Minnesota is an academy that has Tier 1 hockey and is an elite hockey factory that has produced Sydney Crosby, Jonathan Toews, and Zach Parise, just to name a few. A newer program in Alexandria, MN called North Star Christian Academy is starting to produce players.

Most players that seek to further their hockey careers move to play Tier 1 AAA hockey starting at the age of 15, sometimes 14. They live with host families and attend local public high schools. This area has several of these programs in Des Moines, Omaha, Sioux Falls, Madison, Milwaukee, Green Bay, multiple teams in Chicago (Mission, Young Americans, Team Illinois, Fury), and two in St. Louis (Jr. Blues and Carshield). If you want any shot of playing NCAA hockey some day you have to go through a hockey academy, New England Prep, Tier 1 AAA, or Minnesota High School (and to a lesser extent Michigan, Wisconsin, or North Dakota).

Starting at the age of 16 hockey players are eligible for Junior hockey, but most don't start their Junior career until age 17 or 18. Many of those kids you see playing in the USHL in Des Moines, Sioux City, Omaha, Cedar Rapids, Waterloo, Dubuque, etc. are high school age, mostly seniors, that live with host families and attend a local high school, or the new thing is to attend online high school. There are other Junior leagues as well. USHL is a Tier 1 Junior league. The NAHL is a Tier 2 Junior league. More NCAA D1 commits come from the NAHL than the USHL, but that is due to the NAHL being a larger league. The top players are in the USHL and most those players go to Big Ten, Hockey East, or NCDC schools. The NAHL players fill out the rest of D1. The NCDC Junior league on the east coast also sends some players to NCAA D1. NCAA D3 draws its players from the NAHL and NCDC, but the bulk of players come from Tier 3 Junior leagues like the NA3HL and USPHL Premier. To top it all off their are Canadian Jr. A leagues that supply players for NCAA hockey, the BCHL, AJHL, MJHL and others.

I haven't even mentioned the CHL (Canadian Hockey League), or Major Junior, which are the top Junior leagues in Canada, the OHL, WHL, and QmJHL. Players in those leagues are considered "professional" by the NCAA since they receive a stipend while playing in the league and give up their NCAA eligibility. Those players are seeking to play professional hockey but also receive an education package in the form of scholarship money to a local college if they don't make it to the pros.

This structure that hockey has all stems from the way it has been done in Canada since the beginning. The USA basically adopted the structure. In Canada it is a right of passage for hockey players to leave home at 15 or 16 to play. Right or wrong, I can tell you these kids grow the hell up in a hurry and are more prepared to take on life after having gone through it. You have to be disciplined, responsible, and dedicated if you are going survive and thrive. The riff raff gets washed out quickly. I've seen kids get sent back home at age 15 for breaking curfew, disrespecting their host family, or just not being mature enough to handle it.

Believe it or not but many other sports are headed this way, football being among them. Bradenton Academy in Florida is a football factory. Obviously it's happening in soccer since we are discussing it.

 

[hawkedoff]

Another thing I find funny after going through it with my sisters children is the parents talking about scholarships when the kid is like 12. The guys that play at the next level are not the ones that hit puberty early they are the guys who make soccer priority 1.2.3 and 4 when they are 16 and 17.

I would say yes on the priority. I found a pick up game literally every single day around town when I was 15-20. I would go from practice to the pick up game with the Mexicans or the Asian team or the old european dudes. Literally every single day I found a different park where I knew if I showed up someone would be playing and I could work my way into the game. Learned more in those games than any practice.

The other part though is natural gifts. You can be dedicated as anyone but if you don't got it you don't got it. If your first step in soccer is slow I don't care how fast you are. It ain't happening. If your first touch sucks....not a chance. You can probably look good against weaker players if you are fast or have good technical skills but lack physical gifts. Against good players? You are a chump and I can tell within about a minute whether you are someone I will use it someone I will try to limit.

As an older guy that still played men's leagues for a long time it was always amusing to me to watch one of the young arrogant club players take the field in one of these pick up games against people they looked down on. It was always the same. They would show up and walk out and be disrespectful and condescending and would get shown up badly. Usually by one of the players in the game that wasn't even one of the best players there. They had zero clue that some of the guys had played pro down in costa rica or guatemala and were simply having some fun. A few of the club guys figured it out and would come back and it was amazing to see how quickly they got better once they stopped being system robots

 

[hawkedoff]

This is common for hockey and has been the way in the sport for decades. Some players go off to hockey academies, what do you think East Coast Prep hockey is? Shattuck St. Mary's in Minnesota is an academy that has Tier 1 hockey and is an elite hockey factory that has produced Sydney Crosby, Jonathan Toews, and Zach Parise, just to name a few. A newer program in Alexandria, MN called North Star Christian Academy is starting to produce players.

Most players that seek to further their hockey careers move to play Tier 1 AAA hockey starting at the age of 15, sometimes 14. They live with host families and attend local public high schools. This area has several of these programs in Des Moines, Omaha, Sioux Falls, Madison, Milwaukee, Green Bay, multiple teams in Chicago (Mission, Young Americans, Team Illinois, Fury), and two in St. Louis (Jr. Blues and Carshield). If you want any shot of playing NCAA hockey some day you have to go through a hockey academy, New England Prep, Tier 1 AAA, or Minnesota High School (and to a lesser extent Michigan, Wisconsin, or North Dakota).

Starting at the age of 16 hockey players are eligible for Junior hockey, but most don't start their Junior career until age 17 or 18. Many of those kids you see playing in the USHL in Des Moines, Sioux City, Omaha, Cedar Rapids, Waterloo, Dubuque, etc. are high school age, mostly seniors, that live with host families and attend a local high school, or the new thing is to attend online high school. There are other Junior leagues as well. USHL is a Tier 1 Junior league. The NAHL is a Tier 2 Junior league. More NCAA D1 commits come from the NAHL than the USHL, but that is due to the NAHL being a larger league. The top players are in the USHL and most those players go to Big Ten, Hockey East, or NCDC schools. The NAHL players fill out the rest of D1. The NCDC Junior league on the east coast also sends some players to NCAA D1. NCAA D3 draws its players from the NAHL and NCDC, but the bulk of players come from Tier 3 Junior leagues like the NA3HL and USPHL Premier. To top it all off their are Canadian Jr. A leagues that supply players for NCAA hockey, the BCHL, AJHL, MJHL and others.

I haven't even mentioned the CHL (Canadian Hockey League), or Major Junior, which are the top Junior leagues in Canada, the OHL, WHL, and QmJHL. Players in those leagues are considered "professional" by the NCAA since they receive a stipend while playing in the league and give up their NCAA eligibility. Those players are seeking to play professional hockey but also receive an education package in the form of scholarship money to a local college if they don't make it to the pros.

This structure that hockey has all stems from the way it has been done in Canada since the beginning. The USA basically adopted the structure. In Canada it is a right of passage for hockey players to leave home at 15 or 16 to play. Right or wrong, I can tell you these kids grow the hell up in a hurry and are more prepared to take on life after having gone through it. You have to be disciplined, responsible, and dedicated if you are going survive and thrive. The riff raff gets washed out quickly. I've seen kids get sent back home at age 15 for breaking curfew, disrespecting their host family, or just not being mature enough to handle it.

Believe it or not but many other sports are headed this way, football being among them. Bradenton Academy in Florida is a football factory. Obviously it's happening in soccer since we are discussing it.

And yet USA hockey is trying to kill that model with fire right now because it is killing their sport

 

[SoDakHawk]

And yet USA hockey is trying to kill that model with fire right now because it is killing their sport

LOL. No they are not. Look no further than their crown jewel, the NTDP. The model is alive and well. In fact, more hockey academies are opening every year.

Registration in USA Hockey has been on the increase for years and the USA just won gold at the World Juniors. USA Hockey has never been stronger. The dirty little secret is they want a ton of kids to get into the sport so they can hold U8 practices with 50-60 players on the ice to keep costs down. And you can run a Mite practice with that many on the ice too. Then graduate those kids onto Squirts and Pee Wees, but once you hit Bantams (U14) the rubber starts to hit the road. If you aren't leaving home by the age of 15 to play Tier 1, or be lucky enough to live in one of the three M's (Minnesota, Michigan, or Massachusetts) your chance of playing higher level junior hockey (USHL or NAHL) is scarce. USA Hockey is trying to build the pyramid from the base up with focusing on high registration for U8.

USA Hockey plays lip service to the "hockey is for everyone". It is, on a recreational level. But if you are going to try for a higher level, like Tier 1 or 2 Juniors and, ultimately, the NCAA, then that path I laid out is what you are looking at.

Also, I love reading this soccer thread because everything that has been discussed from a developmental standpoint, the coaching, unstructured play, skill development, etc. is true with hockey as well because they are both attack sports. Also true is the insular nature and good old boys club that exists in USA Soccer and USA Hockey. "If you are good they will find you" just isn't true in hockey anymore. There are a lot of talented players out there and where/who you played for and your last name (hockey royalty) still matters.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

The top kids from other states aren't playing odp at all. The Iowa odp team is holding their own because they are playing the JV from other states and the iowa kids all know each other already. It isn't the path to the national team it was a generation ago. In truth it wasn't really a path back then either but people thought it was so they all played if they were good.

The US soccer federation is populated by people from the biggest clubs and they feed and get fed by those clubs. It has always been this way and most of the decisions are about the confirmation bias that occurs surrounding this belief that their clubs and ones like it are better than everyone else. Their decisions surround making their club and that system more solid vs truly identifying and developing talent from anywhere. They lost a battle a bit with the MLS academies developing but even that system is biased towards the big cities and is essentially the same model as they have always pushed. A poor or middle class kid from downstate Illinois is going to travel to Chicago? Never going to happen. So it self perpetuates because there is enough population density in Chicago to ignore the kid from downstate.

It's interesting because the NFL did a survey a few years ago and more than half of the players in the NFL came from small towns. They get recruited by the major universities and then launch into the nfl but the majority started out in small high schools and small towns.

That is the opposite of what soccer has done and continues to do. It is a rich kid sport and that is the reason we have not had success at the top levels. It isn't that the most athletic kids won't play soccer....it is that soccer ignores kids unless they have the right resume

I also think it’s easier to identify football players because size is easily measurable, and more stats in football than baseball.
A kid downstate who’s 6’5” 260 in high school or a QB with 36 TDs as a juniors will
get visits. A talented outside back or center mid? The only way to know is to go watch live or by video (and hope the kid is even playing that day).

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

One thing I’ve learned having a kid in competitive soccer - if they are in the top couple teams in a big club, say, Academy or ECNL, and want to play in college, they can find a spot. Doubtful it’s D1, and doubtful any share of a scholarship, but they can make a team. My son has no interest in going to a 3,000 student DIII school just to play soccer but likes the travel and competitiveness so he plays club (and HS for fun).

 

[MepoDawg#]

True, but that’s where parents have to be real with themselves and their kids. Play club and ODP for the experience, not for a path to get a college scholarship.

Our club experience was much better than ODP. ODP left a lot to be desired, wasn’t ran smoothly and a lot of politics involved.

 

[Pinehawk]

Good discussion here. I agree with most all of it.
What club and ODP really does for most Iowa kids anyway, is give them a chance to make their high school team, and maybe win a State Championship.
Only a few kids will go to a legit college for soccer. But, there is opportunity to continue to play at small colleges (often for not much, or zero scholarship money), if a kid is good and wants to pursue it.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

I also think it’s easier to identify football players because size is easily measurable, and more stats in football than baseball.
A kid downstate who’s 6’5” 260 in high school or a QB with 36 TDs as a juniors will
get visits. A talented outside back or center mid? The only way to know is to go watch live or by video (and hope the kid is even playing that day).

Also with the exception of a few positions football is heavily dependent upon athletic traits.

There are men who have scored touchdowns in the NFL that never played football EVER before being signed to an NFL team.

Erik Swoope - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Not that Swoope had a big time NFL career or anything but I can guarantee you that you would never see a EPL team signing some guy who's never played soccer before.