Aaron Rodgers scorches Big Ten officials for overturning Cooper DeJean's punt return touchdown

[joelbc1]

ok...a repeated motion along any axis of movement.

He waved his arm back and forth mostly in the horizontal plane three times.

Actually, he “waved” his left arm in a “horizontal elliptical” pattern when he waved…..I saw the replay and I thought it nothing more than he maintaining his balance (steadying HIMSELF) as he moved laterally to his left to get into position to field the ball before it was blown dead…..
Now….if the elimination of that particular motion is the intent the “invalid signal” rule, so be it….But “why?”
There is just no way that #3 was making any type of deceptive “fair catch” signal…..and there is no way that was any type of a “fair catch” signal! His action was COMPLETELY misinterpreted by an official sitting 50-100 yds away from the action.
Since the here was no call from officials on the field and no formal complaint by Minnesota coaches, other than verifying the fact the play occurred “in bounds” what business does the “review official” have on this play? Say, if the off field official noted a holding or illegal block infraction that was not called, does he have the obligation/ability to in retrospect make that call and reneg the play as it unfolded?
The play has been called…..I just think the wrong person made the call…..and the call was incorrect/misinterrpreted by that OFF THE FIELD official.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Define wave.

NO ONE thinks this is a wave...

No one, eh? Convince these guys first...

Iowa got robbed on that wave call. Your player was waving off the players.

• ihuskcorn

Not Coop’s fault but I bet he never tries to waive (sic) off a blocker again...

• Daisy Mae

The real issue is that this is never ever called in games and the Spirit of the game is that waving off players during a return is commonplace and never meant to signify a fair catch.

• uiowa08

Apparently waving players to get away from the ball means that any player on the return team forfeits the ability to return the punt.

• EvilMonkeyInTheCloset

A pertinent question is if you are waving off to your teammates, to avoid them touching the punt, are you not allowed to touch it as the returner?

• BVHawkeye

I feel like Cooper was pointing with his right arm and basically kind of semi waving guys off away from the ball with his left arm.

• Steamboat529529

Players do that ALL the time in games waving off guys from the bouncing live ball, and thats not a penalty.

• kceasthawk

Punt returners literally wave people off all the time and then return the ball. It’s never called

• Hawkeyes4Life32

And these are the ones on your side.

 

[gohawks50]

Limitations on Reviewable Plays ARTICLE 7. No other plays or officiating decisions are reviewable. However, the replay official may correct obvious errors that may have a significant impact on the outcome of the game, including those involving the game clock, whether or not a play is reviewable. This excludes fouls that are not specifically reviewable
(See Article 8, following).


Reviewable Fouls ARTICLE 8. The following plays are reviewable and the replay official may create a foul when there is no call by the on-field officials:


a. Player making a forward pass or forward handoff when the player’s entire body and the ball is or has been beyond the neutral zone or after a change of possession (Rule 12-3-2-c and -d).


b. Player beyond the neutral zone when kicking the ball (Rule 12-3-4- b).


c. Blocking by players of the kicking team before they are eligible to touch the ball on an onside kick (Rule 12-3-4-e).


d. The number of players on the field for either team during a live ball (Rule 12-3-6-a).


e. Illegal touching of a forward pass by an originally eligible receiver who has gone out of bounds or touching of a forward pass by an originally ineligible player (Rules 12-3-2-b and 12-3-3-h).


f. A player touching or recovering a kick or loose ball who has been out of bounds and returned inbounds during the kick. (Rule 12-3-4-f).


g. Forward pass that becomes illegal as a second pass after an on-field ruling of a backward pass is overturned (Rule 12-3-2-e).


h. A clear and obvious targeting foul (Rule 12-3-5-b).

https://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/FBC23.pdf

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Limitations on Reviewable Plays ARTICLE 7. No other plays or officiating decisions are reviewable. However, the replay official may correct obvious errors that may have a significant impact on the outcome of the game, including those involving the game clock, whether or not a play is reviewable. This excludes fouls that are not specifically reviewable
(See Article 8, following).


Reviewable Fouls ARTICLE 8. The following plays are reviewable and the replay official may create a foul when there is no call by the on-field officials:


a. Player making a forward pass or forward handoff when the player’s entire body and the ball is or has been beyond the neutral zone or after a change of possession (Rule 12-3-2-c and -d).


b. Player beyond the neutral zone when kicking the ball (Rule 12-3-4- b).


c. Blocking by players of the kicking team before they are eligible to touch the ball on an onside kick (Rule 12-3-4-e).


d. The number of players on the field for either team during a live ball (Rule 12-3-6-a).


e. Illegal touching of a forward pass by an originally eligible receiver who has gone out of bounds or touching of a forward pass by an originally ineligible player (Rules 12-3-2-b and 12-3-3-h).


f. A player touching or recovering a kick or loose ball who has been out of bounds and returned inbounds during the kick. (Rule 12-3-4-f).


g. Forward pass that becomes illegal as a second pass after an on-field ruling of a backward pass is overturned (Rule 12-3-2-e).


h. A clear and obvious targeting foul (Rule 12-3-5-b).

https://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/FBC23.pdf

Already dealt with in the other thread.

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

No one, eh? Convince these guys first...

Iowa got robbed on that wave call. Your player was waving off the players.

• ihuskcorn

Not Coop’s fault but I bet he never tries to waive (sic) off a blocker again...

• Daisy Mae

The real issue is that this is never ever called in games and the Spirit of the game is that waving off players during a return is commonplace and never meant to signify a fair catch.

• uiowa08

Apparently waving players to get away from the ball means that any player on the return team forfeits the ability to return the punt.

• EvilMonkeyInTheCloset

A pertinent question is if you are waving off to your teammates, to avoid them touching the punt, are you not allowed to touch it as the returner?

• BVHawkeye

I feel like Cooper was pointing with his right arm and basically kind of semi waving guys off away from the ball with his left arm.

• Steamboat529529

Players do that ALL the time in games waving off guys from the bouncing live ball, and thats not a penalty.

• kceasthawk

Punt returners literally wave people off all the time and then return the ball. It’s never called

• Hawkeyes4Life32

And these are the ones on your side.

I like how you took out the context of what I was actually referring to douchebag.

Define wave.

As I pointed out off the video. 0:05-0:06 Cooper makes a motion with his open hand, towards his hip in a “wave like” motion. NO ONE thinks this is a wave or an invalid signal. No one.

When a returner is running towards a new area to catch the ball, they have open hands and run, they move their arms in a wave like motion. No one agrees this is a wave. Why not?

 

[HawkInDC]

Define wave.

If we can’t agree that a wave is at or above face level with your palm directed at the recipient of the wave, then of course there is confusion and disagreement. You and others are attempting to conflate any motion at all with “waving.” That’s not right."

Where in the invalid signal definition does it say the waving needs to be above face level or with a palm directed at the recipient? In fact, it seems to be intentionally broad by adding the word "any" before "waving motion"

The distinction you make doesn't exist in the rule book or the dictionary. This is an example of bringing your own biases and preconceived notions to the discussion. You can't point to a mental model in your own brain as a counter argument. If you can cite an accepted defintion, I'm listening.

Definition of WAVE

to motion with the hands or with something held in them in signal or salute; to float, play, or shake in an air current : move loosely to and fro : flutter; to move in waves : heave… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Again, my point was that the basic facts are clear. The subsequent interpretation and application of the rule is not so cut and dry.

And you are demonstrating the larger point I was making, that it's hard check your feelings and existing biases at the door.

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

ok...a repeated motion along any axis of movement.

He waved his arm back and forth mostly in the horizontal plane three times.

Incorrect, the video evidence clearly shows it was in a circular motion with his hand balled up in a fist pointing to the area where the ball was going to land as he was running towards that area and keeping his balance.

I appreciate your attempt to answer but you are simply wrong here. Watch it again, this link provides slow motion. In one of the circular motions he makes his hand is down near his waist and then comes up towards shoulder height. This motion, his hand travels the X Y & Z plane. Cannot be construed as a wave.

Watch it again and set aside your bias to your former conclusion. 1:03 - 1:07

 

[Gimmered]

Incorrect, the video evidence clearly shows it was in a circular motion with his hand balled up in a fist pointing to the area where the ball was going to land as he was running towards that area and keeping his balance.

You may be totally wrong but at least you're consistent about it.

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

You may be totally wrong but at least you're consistent about it.

Do you wave to other human beings with your hand balled up in a fist? Yes or no?

 

[Gimmered]

Do you wave to other human beings with your hand balled up in a fist? Yes or no?

I move my arm back and forth when I'm waving.

 

[DooBi]

It is hysterical watching you guys fall over yourselves trying to justify your thinking. He pointed with his right hand. He did not wave it. He waved with his left hand…multiple times…waving off his teammates? It doesn’t matter. By rule, it’s an invalid signal and no amount of denial changes that.

The best part is if you go back to the original thread, NO ONE denies he was waving. The argument then was that it didn’t matter (irrelevant) or that it wasn’t called on the field (irrelevant) or that he was only waving his teammates away from the ball so there was no intent to deceive (irrelevant). Now that it’s been established beyond any argument that he did wave his hand and that’s the definition of an invalid fair catch that is reviewable…suddenly a wave isn’t a wave.

Whatever it takes, I suppose.

Do you think if the review comes back as a confirmed touchdown that there would be a single person on the planet complaining? Of course not. No one, including all of Minnesota, staff, fans and players, including all the refs on the field, no one, would say that's bullshit. No one.

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

I move my arm back and forth when I'm waving.

Thank you for confirming that waving is different than pointing and you concede the point. Didnt think you had it in you.

 

[Gimmered]

Thank you for confirming that waving is different than pointing and you concede the point. Didnt think you had it in you.

So cool to meet a fan base that makes Husker fans look good.

Thank you.

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

So cool to meet a fan base that makes Husker fans look good.

Thank you.

Wait, you are trying to tell me Cooper Dejean was waving with his index finger? That’s your position? I thought you were being flippant, but I can’t tell if you are just being obtuse or what now?

 

[Gimmered]

Wait, you are trying to tell me Cooper Dejean was waving with his index finger? That’s your position? I thought you were being flippant, but I can’t tell if you are just being obtuse or what now?

I'm telling you he was waving with his left arm, but you already know that, you just don't want to admit it.

End of the day, 10-12 final score. Minnesota wins.

 

[HawkInDC]

Incorrect, the video evidence clearly shows it was in a circular motion with his hand balled up in a fist pointing to the area where the ball was going to land as he was running towards that area and keeping his balance.

I appreciate your attempt to answer but you are simply wrong here. Watch it again, this link provides slow motion. In one of the circular motions he makes his hand is down near his waist and then comes up towards shoulder height. This motion, his hand travels the X Y & Z plane. Cannot be construed as a wave.

Watch it again and set aside your bias to your former conclusion. 1:03 - 1:07

View embedded media

Do you wave to other human beings with your hand balled up in a fist? Yes or no?

No, I personally don't, but the video confirms he makes the same repetitive motion three times.

The position of the hand(clenched vs open, out v. in) does not matter as the rule does not require the hand to be in any specific position during the waving motion. According to valid signal definition the receiver could have a clenched fist above the head as long as the receiver is "waving that hand from side to side of his body more than once"

Can you point to the text in the rule that supports that your point is relevant?

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

I'm telling you he was waving with his left arm, but you already know that, you just don't want to admit it.

End of the day, 10-12 final score. Minnesota wins.

No, he was not waving. Slow motion video evidence confirms he was not waving at any point. You are being obtuse and ignorant.

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

No, I personally don't, but the video confirms he makes the same repetitive motion three times.

The position of the hand(clenched vs open, out v. in) does not matter as the rule does not require the hand to be in any specific position during the waving motion. According to valid signal definition the receiver could have a clenched fist above the head as long as the receiver is "waving that hand from side to side of his body more than once"

Can you point to the text in the rule that supports that your point is relevant?

Watch the slow mo video again. If you cannot admit that he was not waving at any point, i cannot help you. You are being disingenuous.

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

No, I personally don't, but the video confirms he makes the same repetitive motion three times.

You keep saying this, it simply isn’t true. Video evidence confirms otherwise. Watch it again.

 

[waterboy4582]

So cool to meet a fan base that makes Husker fans look good.

Thank you.

Delusion runs rampant within that fan base. I see you are projecting.

 

[ft254]

ok...a repeated motion along any axis of movement.

He waved his arm back and forth mostly in the horizontal plane three times.

NCAA Rule Book

ARTICLE 2.

A valid signal is a signal given by a player of Team B who has obviously signaled his intention by extending one hand only clearly above his head and waving that hand from side to side of his body more than once.

Not laterally.

 

[HawkInDC]

NCAA Rule Book

ARTICLE 2.

A valid signal is a signal given by a player of Team B who has obviously signaled his intention by extending one hand only clearly above his head and waving that hand from side to side of his body more than once.

Not laterally.

Not sure why you are presenting the valid signal definition? What point are you trying to make?

My response was to define "wave", not valid signal.

Any wave not meeting the valid signal definition falls under Article 3, the invalid signal definition. As you point out, a valid signal cannot be on the x-axis. e.g. lateral.

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

Not sure why you are presenting the valid signal definition? What point are you trying to make?

My response was to define "wave", not valid signal.

Any wave not meeting the valid signal definition falls under Article 3, the invalid signal definition. As you point out, a valid signal cannot be on the x-axis. e.g. lateral.

This has been repeatedly debunked with slo-mo video evidence and screenshots.

Why can’t you admit he was pointing the entire time?

You also say he repeatedly motioned “on a plane.” This is also false. Never happened. His pointing went from shoulder height to waist height, pointing to an area of the field. That is XYZ axis, not XY. Sorry Charlie.

 

[ft254]

Not sure why you are presenting the valid signal definition? What point are you trying to make?

My response was to define "wave", not valid signal.

Any wave not meeting the valid signal definition falls under Article 3, the invalid signal definition. As you point out, a valid signal cannot be on the x-axis. e.g. lateral.

I don't like to get into extracted arguments but I'd wonder how you argue the fair catch SIGNAL is not a SIGNAL. I quoted the rule from the NCAA rule book. The officials said he did called for a fair catch. I suppose you have evidence to support your position, and if so, please provide it. The rule was intended to provide a visible signal vertical for players and officials, ultimately to prevent injuries.

Article 3? Don't to try to bullshit. No need to reply.

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

Come on. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

He waved his left arm back and forth.

This has been debunked. Sorry this is simply not true.

 

[Chuck C]

IMO, this view from field level, which the replay booth did not have access to, shows CDJ pointing with his left hand, and running and his left hand bouncing around. To me, the Minnesota players, the Minnesota sideline, and the two refs right there staring at him, nobody construed that as a fair catch signal or an attempt to deceive.

Try sprinting laterally to your left with your arm out, I guarantee it’s going to bounce around, which lends credence to CDJ saying he was trying to balance himself.

 

[ft254]

IMO, this view from field level, which the replay booth did not have access to, shows CDJ pointing with his left hand, and running and his left hand bouncing around. To me, the Minnesota players, the Minnesota sideline, and the two refs right there staring at him, nobody construed that as a fair catch signal or an attempt to deceive.

Try sprinting laterally to your left with your arm out, I guarantee it’s going to bounce around, which lends credence to CDJ saying he was trying to balance himself.

View embedded media

Doesn't matter. One hand over your head waved multiple times constitutes a fair catch signal. Nothing else does.

NCAA Rule Book

ARTICLE 2.

A valid signal is a signal given by a player of Team B who has obviously signaled his intention by extending one hand only clearly above his head and waving that hand from side to side of his body more than once.

 

[Chuck C]

This is hilarious. No shit Sherlock. So who cares what the people playing the game at ground level are seeing, let’s go with the omniscient view in the sky.

Big Ten coordinator of officiating Bill Carollo said:

“If you look at a ground video of it, you might say this doesn’t look like much of a wave,” Carollo said. “But if you look at the high (camera view) over the top, he’s actually waving."

Big Ten, NCAA explain why punt return by Iowa football's Cooper DeJean was overturned

The Big Ten and NCAA answered questions for nearly 30 minutes about the Cooper DeJean touchdown that was wiped out vs. Minnesota.

www.hawkcentral.com

Also, the Big Ten just reversed a targeting call against an Iowa player in the game, that the same replay official reviewed on his own and made. The replay official is an idiot.

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

Doesn't matter. One hand over your head waved multiple times constitutes a fair catch signal. Nothing else does.

NCAA Rule Book

ARTICLE 2.

A valid signal is a signal given by a player of Team B who has obviously signaled his intention by extending one hand only clearly above his head and waving that hand from side to side of his body more than once.

You are both correct. He clearly did not call for a fair catch AND he clearly, by video evidence confrming this fact without any doubt whatseover, DID NOT WAVE, meaning, there was no grounds to state he made an invalid fair catch signal either.

Everything he did was perfectly legal. The Replay official cooked up an infraction and wiped the score. He made a mistake. I just wish they would own it instead of double and tripling down like they have.

YO IDIOTS, we have the video.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

This has been debunked. Sorry this is simply not true.

No offense but you can't "debunk" something people can see with their own eyes.

 

[ft254]

This is hilarious. No shit Sherlock. So who cares what the people playing the game at ground level are seeing, let’s go with the omniscient view in the sky.

Big Ten coordinator of officiating Bill Carollo said:

“If you look at a ground video of it, you might say this doesn’t look like much of a wave,” Carollo said. “But if you look at the high (camera view) over the top, he’s actually waving."

Big Ten, NCAA explain why punt return by Iowa football's Cooper DeJean was overturned

The Big Ten and NCAA answered questions for nearly 30 minutes about the Cooper DeJean touchdown that was wiped out vs. Minnesota.

www.hawkcentral.com

Also, the Big Ten just reversed a targeting call against an Iowa player in the game, that the same replay official reviewed on his own and made. The replay official is an idiot.

Bullshit. The vertical view is the worst. The horizontal perspective is the perspective the players and officials have and the angles the signal is intended for.

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

No offense but you can't "debunk" something people can see with their own eyes.

Correct, you, me, anyone can see he was pointing the entire time, and never waving, at any time.

Just the facts.

 

[HawkInDC]

Doesn't matter. One hand over your head waved multiple times constitutes a fair catch signal. Nothing else does.

NCAA Rule Book

ARTICLE 2.

A valid signal is a signal given by a player of Team B who has obviously signaled his intention by extending one hand only clearly above his head and waving that hand from side to side of his body more than once.

Read the entirety of section 8. ALL of it is required to interpret the rule. You can't just ignore the stuff you don't like. Section 8 defines two kinds of fair catches, good ones and bad ones. The bad ones are still fair catches according the entirety of the rule.

Back to my original post...humans are flawed at reasoning when emotions are involved. The basic facts and conditions for the argument that oppose your POV are ignored.

We are doomed as as species.

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

Bullshit. The vertical view is the worst. The horizontal perspective is the perspective the players and officials have and the angles the signal is intended for.

Yes. It was a moronic comment to try and justify the Replay officials mistake.

He shouldn’t have said it and should apologize for saying it.

 

[HawkInDC]

Correct, you, me, anyone can see he was pointing the entire time, and never waving, at any time.

Just the facts.

Nope.

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

Read the entirety of section 8. ALL of it is required to interpret the rule. You can't just ignore the stuff you don't like. Section 8 defines two kinds of fair catches, good ones and bad ones. The bad ones are still fair catches according the entirety of the rule.

Back to my original post...humans are flawed at reasoning when emotions are involved. The basic facts and conditions for the argument that oppose your POV are ignored.

We are doomed as as species.

Kind of like people who won’t admit he was pointing the entire time?

Can you admit that at least?

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

Nope.

Click this link. Hit pause. Go through frame by frame. Never waves, not once.

Just the facts.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Correct, you, me, anyone can see he was pointing the entire time, and never waving, at any time.

Just the facts.

More LOL...every single Hawkeye was calling it a wave in the first thread. I posted a whole list of them. Now that the rules are definitively against you, suddenly it wasn't a wave at all. 😆

As the old saying goes, you're entitled to your own opinion but facts are facts. He was waving his left arm and no "debunking" changes that.

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

Nope.

Can you also admit the field official was 10 yards away, was in great position, and completely disagrees with you?

Can you admit that or no?

 

[HawkInDC]

Kind of like people who won’t admit he was pointing the entire time?

Can you admit that at least?

He was pointing with his right arm, yes. It does not matter though.

Did his left arm repeat a similar motion three times?

Repeated motion is literally the definition of wave and no where in the rules does it describe what position the hand must be in while it is waving. All these counterpoints are moot.