ACA death spiral beginning?

[aflachawk]

When it first started we heard about the death spiral that might hit ACA and make it too expensive. That has been dismissed as untrue by the Obama administration and the kool aid drinkers on the board here, because as every one knows the plan is now wildly successful. I feel we may start to see that become more of a reality soon. Problem 1) This year only about 10 million people will be participating in ACA(The administration predicted in excess of 20 million) Almost all the people in the plan are there because they cannot get insurance any where else. The people who are healthy(and are needed to keep the premiums down) are not signing up.Problem 2) The vaunted non profit heath coops that the Obama administration helped set up to compete with those damn insurance companies are dropping like flies(so far 10 of 23 have died and more on the way.) As those leave the scene there will be less competition and existing plans will have larger premiums, more compressed user networks and higher deductibles. There by making then unaffordable or unattractive to current users The secret is this what BHO aticipated all along because their answer will be universal coverage with a single payer I hope a Republican wins in 2016 but some of me hopes it does not because domestically and internationally this administration is leaving so many problems are going to explode there will not be a lot of good answers

 

[TexMichFan]

The end game may not be what you think it is.

 

[aflachawk]

The end game may not be what you think it is.

So give me your endgane

 

[TexMichFan]

So give me your endgane

I don't think the Democrats want anything short of a one payer government controlled system. When ObamaCare fails and you have 10 to 20 million people in limbo they will get it.

 

[moral_victory]

I don't think the Democrats want anything short of a one payer government controlled system. When ObamaCare fails and you have 10 to 20 million people in limbo they will get it.

I wish I had as much faith in the Democrats as you seem to.

 

[Hawk in SEC Country]

I don't think the Democrats want anything short of a one payer government controlled system. When ObamaCare fails and you have 10 to 20 million people in limbo they will get it.

So basically...they want VA level care for everyone.

As a vet and someone that uses the VA? F*** that.

 

[aflachawk]

I don't think the Democrats want anything short of a one payer government controlled system. When ObamaCare fails and you have 10 to 20 million people in limbo they will get it.

On that we fully agree.

 

[TexMichFan]

So basically...they want VA level care for everyone.

As a vet and someone that uses the VA? F*** that.

The political aspect of health care is about votes and not level of care.

We can only hope people will wake up to where this is headed and will demand a better solution.

 

[TexMichFan]

I wish I had as much faith in the Democrats as you seem to.

Not sure faith is the correct term when referring to Democrats, that sounds too religious.

 

[JRHawk2003]

I wish we would get a single payer....like the rest of the civilized world who spends less and has better outcomes and satisfaction. But alas we will get the ACA. Parts of it may change, but its not going to get scaled back wholesale. Most of the uninsured are in the red states of course.

 

[Lone Clone]

I don't think the Democrats want anything short of a one payer government controlled system. When ObamaCare fails and you have 10 to 20 million people in limbo they will get it.

I honestly think that was the plan all along.

 

[Panic1769]

I wish we would get a single payer....like the rest of the civilized world who spends less and has better outcomes and satisfaction. But alas we will get the ACA. Parts of it may change, but its not going to get scaled back wholesale. Most of the uninsured are in the red states of course.

Better outcomes and satisfaction? According to whom???

 

[JRHawk2003]

Lower infant mortality and longer life expectancy in most of those countries. Now, you can say that its possible there are other factors that influence those stats, and you would be right, but they spend a lot less as a % of GDP.

 

[NoleandDawg]

I wish we would get a single payer....like the rest of the civilized world who spends less and has better outcomes and satisfaction. But alas we will get the ACA. Parts of it may change, but its not going to get scaled back wholesale. Most of the uninsured are in the red states of course.

Sweet health care brought to you by the same people who've brought us the DMV and the Post Office. Where do I sign up?

 

[theiacowtipper]

Sweet health care brought to you by the same people who've brought us the DMV and the Post Office. Where do I sign up?

You know it's funny but I've never had a bad experience at either place. Granted, I don't go there often but I've always had great experiences. However, I've had lowly customer service with poor outcomes at many private businesses. I don't see how that fits into your narrative.

 

[JRHawk2003]

You can get your DL renewed now at a Kiosk in Iowa and Iowa is already testing a smart phone app for DL's....Of course I can't speak for FL.

Single payer would provide a base level of service, you could purchase supplements above and beyond that.

I don't think it will ever happen. Too many people making too much money off human misery...the American Way

 

[YellowSnow51]

I wish we would get a single payer....like the rest of the civilized world who spends less and has better outcomes and satisfaction. But alas we will get the ACA. Parts of it may change, but its not going to get scaled back wholesale. Most of the uninsured are in the red states of course.

The rest of the world has strict immigration policies and aren't interested in giving their treasuries away to anyone that steps over the border like the left in this country want. Single payer is hard when population is a constant variable. Can't have both.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

You know it's funny but I've never had a bad experience at either place. Granted, I don't go there often but I've always had great experiences. However, I've had lowly customer service with poor outcomes at many private businesses. I don't see how that fits into your narrative.

Because you can choose not to go back to the private businesses. You act like every single visit with a private business is going to be the best experience ever.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

You can get your DL renewed now at a Kiosk in Iowa and Iowa is already testing a smart phone app for DL's....Of course I can't speak for FL.

Single payer would provide a base level of service, you could purchase supplements above and beyond that.

I don't think it will ever happen. Too many people making too much money off human misery...the American Way

You can renew your license online here.

 

[joelbc1]

So give me your endgane

It is an easy answer. The answer is a "public option." The only way to make healthcare affordable is to start removing the profit from it.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

It is an easy answer. The answer is a "public option." The only way to make healthcare affordable is to start removing the profit from it.

If you remove any semblance of trying to make a profit, then you're just going to have a giant money vacuum that has no reason to be efficient. Not being efficient is waste. Waste causes higher costs.

 

[JRHawk2003]

The rest of the world has strict immigration policies and aren't interested in giving their treasuries away to anyone that steps over the border like the left in this country want. Single payer is hard when population is a constant variable. Can't have both.

Is that supposed to make sense?

 

[joelbc1]

If you remove any semblance of trying to make a profit, then you're just going to have a giant money vacuum that has no reason to be efficient. Not being efficient is waste. Waste causes higher costs.

LIke their isn't a huge amount of waste and greed in today's healthcare delivery system? Sorry, that is an old and stale argument that doesn't meet the standards any more. It is time for something else. We cannot afford what we have any more. Sad but true. Unless we say "Enough" our system of capitalism will allow us to go into bankruptcy and we will owe our collective souls to the collective company store.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Is that supposed to make sense?

What part don't you understand? He's stating that having a single payer is going to be tough to account for, price wise, when you have such a huge influx of people coming across the border. These countries with a single payer system, they generally aren't easy to immigrate to for this exact reason.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

LIke their isn't a huge amount of waste and greed in today's healthcare delivery system? Sorry, that is an old and stale argument that doesn't meet the standards any more. It is time for something else. We cannot afford what we have any more. Sad but true. Unless we say "Enough" our system of capitalism will allow us to go into bankruptcy and we will owe our collective souls to the collective company store.

Do you know why there is waste? Because these corporations are in bed with the government and know that the government will come in and bail them out if need be. When you remove the consequences for bad business practices, then you're going to get more bad business practices.

 

[joelbc1]

Do you know why there is waste? Because these corporations are in bed with the government and know that the government will come in and bail them out if need be. When you remove the consequences for bad business practices, then you're going to get more bad business practices.

That does NOT solve the problem. The problem is too much money. To kill a snake, you cut off its head. Corporations are whores for dollars. The only thing they understand...or will listen to, is to have their access to dollars removed. Fact.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

That does NOT solve the problem. The problem is too much money. To kill a snake, you cut off its head. Corporations are whores for dollars. The only thing they understand...or will listen to, is to have their access to dollars removed. Fact.

You act like greed is a bad thing. Greed is good, it's corruption that is bad. Go look at the housing crisis. That was your congressmen and your president selling you out to the banks, and they did it all for the poor people! LOL!

Do you think that's been the only bailout in this countries history? There have been multiple bailouts since 1913, and each time the people at the top get more rich and the people at the bottom end up jobless and in an economy being inflated by the bailout.

The bottom line is that you can't take risk out of the situation if you want less corruption. A company has a risk analysis of whether or not they can pursue an action. The risk is that they'll go out of business. This doesn't happen for government bureaucracy or corporations that have the backing of the government, because they can always go to the taxpayer to bail them out of their bad decisions, therefore there is no risk and they can act more reckless.

 

[JRHawk2003]

What part don't you understand? He's stating that having a single payer is going to be tough to account for, price wise, when you have such a huge influx of people coming across the border. These countries with a single payer system, they generally aren't easy to immigrate to for this exact reason.

Thats just basic nonsense. Those people are in the system now uninsured and still bringing in cost. In fact they show up at ER's and make the cost problem worse.

 

[joelbc1]

You act like greed is a bad thing. Greed is good, it's corruption that is bad. Go look at the housing crisis. That was your congressmen and your president selling you out to the banks, and they did it all for the poor people! LOL!

Do you think that's been the only bailout in this countries history? There have been multiple bailouts since 1913, and each time the people at the top get more rich and the people at the bottom end up jobless and in an economy being inflated by the bailout.

The bottom line is that you can't take risk out of the situation if you want less corruption. A company has a risk analysis of whether or not they can pursue an action. The risk is that they'll go out of business. This doesn't happen for government bureaucracy or corporations that have the backing of the government, because they can always go to the taxpayer to bail them out of their bad decisions, therefore there is no risk and they can act more reckless.

"Greedy bastards" is what got us into the housing mess. Greed and money have no morals. The attitude of today's entrepeneur is "**** you. I'm taking mine." The rise of corporatism and its morality has slowly eroded American morality. I guess nole, you and I will never see eye to eye on this. I have my life pretty much behind me and this is my observation. I have been guilty of it to, to a certain extent. What I witnessed under Junior's administration was illogical and damn near criminal. People buying houses I couldn't afford and they were on "temporary" jobs, yet the banks and mortgage houses backed the loans? Jeeebus Keeeerist, 25 years ago when I bough my place, my bride and I had to make an appointment, meet a mortgage banker, fill out forms, credit reports, answer questions, sign quick claims and all kinds of crap to but a $96k house! 15 years ago fols were calling the banks ands getting deals over the damn telephone! And it was all GREED for government insured guaranteed loans, which the banking and mortgage houses had bundled and sold to "we the people" as "solid" investments on Wall Street.
It is friggin' GREED that got us here, plain and simple. More greed is not the answer. It is time we buck up and pay the piper. But "we the people" find that uncomfortable.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

You realize that Clinton signed that bill into law right? I'm no defender of "W", but that policy was set in motion before he was ever elected. It's just that the bubble popped while he was in office.

That being said, greed isn't what got us into the mess. Corruption is what got us into this mess. Greed in itself can't hurt anyone without either directly breaking the law, or getting congress to help you break the law. Either way, that's corruption, not greed.

 

[joelbc1]

You realize that Clinton signed that bill into law right? I'm no defender of "W", but that policy was set in motion before he was ever elected. It's just that the bubble popped while he was in office.

That being said, greed isn't what got us into the mess. Corruption is what got us into this mess. Greed in itself can't hurt anyone without either directly breaking the law, or getting congress to help you break the law. Either way, that's corruption, not greed.

I care not who signed what. I do know that under Junior's watch and the GOPs direction for less regulation and their lack of oversight, what happened. What got the country into problems was not the law...it was the lack of oversight by Congress and the government agencies involved.

 

[JRHawk2003]

Greed leads to corruption...they go hand in hand

 

[NoleSoup4U]

I care not who signed what. I do know that under Junior's watch and the GOPs direction for less regulation and their lack of oversight, what happened. What got the country into problems was not the law...it was the lack of oversight by Congress and the government agencies involved.

I don't doubt it. So, why would you trust the government to fix this problem, when they clearly have no interest in fixing it? Regulations aren't used to reign in big corporations anyways, they're generally used as a club to bludgeon smaller companies. A good example of this would be how micro-breweries have to use larger corporations to distribute their beer, therefore making sure that gigantic breweries like AB still get a cut from the little guy. That's the kind of "regulations" that these assholes are passing. They wouldn't do anything to hurt their biggest donors.

 

[HawkeyeHitman]

It always the other person that is greedy. Democrats are never greedy.

 

[joelbc1]

I don't doubt it. So, why would you trust the government to fix this problem, when they clearly have no interest in fixing it? Regulations aren't used to reign in big corporations anyways, they're generally used as a club to bludgeon smaller companies. A good example of this would be how micro-breweries have to use larger corporations to distribute their beer, therefore making sure that gigantic breweries like AB still get a cut from the little guy. That's the kind of "regulations" that these assholes are passing. They wouldn't do anything to hurt their biggest donors.

Yore preaching to the choir here. The ONLY answer is to reduce their access to the MONEY. The tax code MUST be revised. "Trickle down" does not work. It's a code word for "greed and corruption." Tax the bastards! That is the only thing they understand.

 

[JRHawk2003]

People of all stripes are greedy, and have moments of greed. I suspect all of us are guilty of it at one point or another. Some take it to a whole different level. I doubt many of them are political except when they can use politics for some advantage

 

[joelbc1]

It always the other person that is greedy. Democrats are never greedy.

Where did I say that? The fact of the matter is this mess occurred while the GOP was firmly in control of Congress and the federal regulatory agencies. Not the Dems. Sure Dems are greedy...they are just smarter about how it is handled.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Greed leads to corruption...they go hand in hand

Greed can lead to corruption, but it doesn't have to. If I'm greedy, but I work hard and save my money, then I am greedy, but I'm not hurting anyone. However, if I'm greedy and I steal from someone, then I'm corrupt, and if caught I'll go to jail. Now, if I bribe a cop to help me steal, then I can steal and, more than likely, keep myself out of jail. I'm using the government to help me legally steal from other people. That's basically what these giant corporations are doing.

So, how do you stop it? You can't stop it by putting pressure on your congressman because he doesn't really care about you. He cares about being reelected and the guy bribing him gives him the best chance of that.

The only way to stop him, is to not give the government person the power to protect the crook. You can do this with smaller government or by giving more rights back to the states. It's harder to bribe people in 50 different states than it is one federal government.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Where did I say that? The fact of the matter is this mess occurred while the GOP was firmly in control of Congress and the federal regulatory agencies. Not the Dems. Sure Dems are greedy...they are just smarter about how it is handled.

So, I guess Clinton was responsible for Enron, Worldcom, and the bursting of the tech bubble, since that happened on his watch.

 

[JRHawk2003]

Or you do one Lessig is proposing. That has more chance than going back to the Articles of Confederation...