ACA death spiral beginning?

[NoleSoup4U]

Or you do one Lessig is proposing. That has more chance than going back to the Articles of Confederation...

I honestly haven't read anything about that, but I would be interested in doing so. I'll have to check it out. The bottom line really is that you're probably going to have to vote for people not in the main two parties, which...well, good luck with that. LOL!

 

[joelbc1]

So, I guess Clinton was responsible for Enron, Worldcom, and the bursting of the tech bubble, since that happened on his watch.

Enron was a criminal enterprise.....Worldcom????? "tech bubble" is more an affect of business, isn't it? It isn't like Bill appointed folks on boards to oversee these PRIVATE operations. Atleast his people in charge of the public sectors mentioned previously did not allow the rules to be interpreted where the masses of people and their savings were adversely affected for then profits of a few GREEDY BASTARDS. Who, for some reason have NEVER spent a day in jail.

 

[joelbc1]

I honestly haven't read anything about that, but I would be interested in doing so. I'll have to check it out. The bottom line really is that you're probably going to have to vote for people not in the main two parties, which...well, good luck with that. LOL!

We could always REMOVE all private $$$ from campaigns. Just further proof that money corrupts.

 

[HawkeyeHitman]

Why don't we just get rid of money all together. It seems to cause a lot of problems in the world.

 

[joelbc1]

Why don't we just get rid of money all together. It seems to cause a lot of problems in the world.

we would just find something else to covet.

 

[Vroom_C14]

I don't think the Democrats want anything short of a one payer government controlled system. When ObamaCare fails and you have 10 to 20 million people in limbo they will get it.

Yes because their VA system is stellar...

 

[86Hawkeye]

Greed leads to corruption...they go hand in hand

And greed applies to the government as well.

 

[Accipiter]

Almost every year I travel to Canada, and being a (now retired) MD I've always made it a point to talk to Canadians about their national health plan; every single person I've talked with... every single one... has been in favor of it and has thought the U.S. is crazy. I've had the same experience all over western Europe. We had a chance to do a proper health system in this country, but I'm afraid now there are too many powerful groups with too much money in our system, and they will make it impossible to have an honest, logical national health plan. Lay people have no idea just how much waste and fraud there is in our system; it is absolutely appalling. We are such suckers.

 

[ottumwan in tx]

So if the feds take it over they will spin it as a life cycle not a death spiral

 

[ottumwan in tx]

Almost every year I travel to Canada, and being a (now retired) MD I've always made it a point to talk to Canadians about their national health plan; every single person I've talked with... every single one... has been in favor of it and has thought the U.S. is crazy. I've had the same experience all over western Europe. We had a chance to do a proper health system in this country, but I'm afraid now there are too many powerful groups with too much money in our system, and they will make it impossible to have an honest, logical national health plan. Lay people have no idea just how much waste and fraud there is in our system; it is absolutely appalling. We are such suckers.

yes, we worked for 50 years to correct this and had the best system in the world, The ACA ruined it by design

 

[joelbc1]

And greed applies to the government as well.

Absolutely. But "greed in government" is more easily revealed and corrected than greed in the "private sector."

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Enron was a criminal enterprise.....Worldcom????? "tech bubble" is more an affect of business, isn't it? It isn't like Bill appointed folks on boards to oversee these PRIVATE operations. Atleast his people in charge of the public sectors mentioned previously did not allow the rules to be interpreted where the masses of people and their savings were adversely affected for then profits of a few GREEDY BASTARDS. Who, for some reason have NEVER spent a day in jail.

I just love the little reality you live in.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Absolutely. But "greed in government" is more easily revealed and corrected than greed in the "private sector."

That's complete bullshit. Corruption in the private sector leads to going out of business. That isn't so with government, or companies using the government to facilitate their corruption.

 

[joelbc1]

That's complete bullshit. Corruption in the private sector leads to going out of business. That isn't so with government, or companies using the government to facilitate their corruption.

Only when they are caught...and usually to get caught, many others have to suffer severe losses. Government processes, altho slow and painstaking, are usually pretty thorough and with proper OVERSIGHT effective. Cumbersome, yes...but effective.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

We could always REMOVE all private $$$ from campaigns. Just further proof that money corrupts.

What do you mean by "private money?" Are you talking about corporate donations, donations from private citizens, or people using their own money?

 

[joelbc1]

What do you mean by "private money?" Are you talking about corporate donations, donations from private citizens, or people using their own money?

For sure ALL PAC money......and a severe limit on "private funds"........I honestly believe we should adopt the Brit style of campaigning...get all the shit out of the way in 30 days.,

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Only when they are caught...and usually to get caught, many others have to suffer severe losses. Government processes, altho slow and painstaking, are usually pretty thorough and with proper OVERSIGHT effective. Cumbersome, yes...but effective.

How is the government ever going to have proper oversight when it's these same corporations that are making the laws. All you're doing is allowing these businesses to cement corrupt deals with our government.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

For sure ALL PAC money......and a severe limit on "private funds"........I honestly believe we should adopt the Brit style of campaigning...get all the shit out of the way in 30 days.,

So you don't really know who you're voting for? Pass.

 

[joelbc1]

How is the government ever going to have proper oversight when it's these same corporations that are making the laws. All you're doing is allowing these businesses to cement corrupt deals with our government.

You CAN change your government.........much more easily than you can change a corporation's reason for existence. That is the flaw in the SVC's "Citizen's United" ruling...it damn near gives carte blanche to corporate entities to work against the best wishes of the nation and its citizens. "we the people" just are NOT savvy enough to understand this.,

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Sure you can change your government, but you're not talking about changing the government. You're talking about changing out the people in the government. There is a difference.

Anyways, I'm off to class. be back in a few hours.

 

[aflachawk]

It is an easy answer. The answer is a "public option." The only way to make healthcare affordable is to start removing the profit from it.

One of the biggest lies ever told. Profit generally improves a product because it incentivizes continual improvement. Large government bureaucrocies do not have the same incentive and are more concerned with padding their own nest and protecting their turf. The classic government run medical system is the VA. They have had epic failures with thousands of vets dying while waiting for service. Single payer would take the decisions away from Dr and patients and put those medical decisions squarely in the hands of politicians.

 

[aflachawk]

Absolutely. But "greed in government" is more easily revealed and corrected than greed in the "private sector."

That certainly not true. See the VA system as proof. That still is not solved

 

[86Hawkeye]

Absolutely. But "greed in government" is more easily revealed and corrected than greed in the "private sector."

Not really.

At least corporations get independently audited. Who does independent audits of the Federal Reserve or the Federal Government?

I'm also talking about greed for political power (which is ultimately power to control resources - money).

Take Social Security for instance. Politicians have been raiding SS for decades to cover general expenses of government.

Can Corporations do that legally with employee pensions and get away with it? No.

 

[The Tradition]

It always amazes me how liberals hold an almost religious belief that the government can solve all our problems.

 

[JRHawk2003]

It always amazes me how conservatives see every issue in a simplistic black and white way and think in absolutes.

I look at things on a case by case basis. In this case, my criteria is that health care fails some of the micro economic test for markets; consumers have poor information and providers don't easily come in and out of the market. Markets do a good job with many things; beer, toilet paper, soft drinks, tortilla chips, etc etc etc. Health care isn't one of them so it requires some degree of market intervention.

 

[The Tradition]

GOVERNMENT is why these problems exist. If you had asked your doctor how much a procedure cost before Medicaid and Medicare came about, you would have gotten a straight answer. Today, the doctor has no idea how much anything costs and will have to refer you to his office manager.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

You can get your DL renewed now at a Kiosk in Iowa and Iowa is already testing a smart phone app for DL's....Of course I can't speak for FL.

I will be making an appointment at the DMV to get my renewal next month...an appointment! Beats the hell out of "take a number". If you want to see atrocious customer service, go to the largest private employer - by far - in the country.

 

[JRHawk2003]

Really? So if we had no government in this market everyone would get healthcare and there would be no burden of cost on society?

 

[The Tradition]

Really? So if we had no government in this market everyone would get healthcare and there would be no burden of cost on society?

Even before the wonderful ACA the government had its fingers all up in heathcare's vay-jay-jay. There's no way to know what healthcare in this country would look like without all the government's mandates.

 

[JRHawk2003]

Sure there is. Look at the 19th Century...snake oil salesmen...con men....mixed in with real docs.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

It always amazes me how liberals hold an almost religious belief that the government can solve all our problems.

It's the same sort of collectivism that gave us religion, so you shouldn't be too surprised. It's people latching on to each other, under some tenant, because they are too scared to walk the road alone.

 

[86Hawkeye]

We could always REMOVE all private $$$ from campaigns. Just further proof that money corrupts.

Perfect. Then the government can tell us all who to vote for.

 

[Perivolaki]

Lower infant mortality and longer life expectancy in most of those countries. Now, you can say that its possible there are other factors that influence those stats, and you would be right, but they spend a lot less as a % of GDP.

Maybe one of the factors is that when they can't get treated in their own country they come to the good ole US of A to receive treatment.

My wife used to work for Mayo and she would have a line of people from all these countries with single payer systems. She'd ask them why they came to Mayo and they would tell her they couldn't get treatment in their own country. Either they couldn't get treated or they could get treated but would have to wait an inordinate amount of time to receive the treatment they needed.

She didn't see to many satisfied customers using the single payer system.

 

[ottumwan in tx]

Maybe one of the factors is that when they can't get treated in their own country they come to the good ole US of A to receive treatment.

My wife used to work for Mayo and she would have a line of people from all these countries with single payer systems. She'd ask them why they came to Mayo and they would tell her they couldn't get treatment in their own country. Either they couldn't get treated or they could get treated but would have to wait an inordinate amount of time to receive the treatment they needed.

She didn't see to many satisfied customers using the single payer system.

the liberals say this is a lie

 

[Herkmeister]

QUIT ACTING LIKE YOUR GOVERNMENT CARES ABOUT YOU AND WHAT YOU THINK!!

THEY DO NOT GIVE A F%CK AND THEY LIE TO US ALL.

 

[Herkmeister]

The insurance industry sold their souls. This is about money. Obama does not care about you unless you're poor, black, and a white cop shot you.

 

[ottumwan in tx]

QUIT ACTING LIKE YOUR GOVERNMENT CARES ABOUT YOU AND WHAT YOU THINK!!

THEY DO NOT GIVE A F%CK AND THEY LIE TO US ALL.

but please don't call Hillary a liar, she just "stated things incorrectly".

 

[ottumwan in tx]

The insurance industry sold their souls. This is about money. Obama does not care about you unless you're poor, black, and a white cop shot you.

except they all lost their butts and are now bankrupt, due to the ACA, so what really happened is this: they were losing their butts since the 90's.... they found a way out, a "bail out". they want the feds to bail them out, ala GM and aig.

 

[Herkmeister]

except they all lost their butts and are now bankrupt, due to the ACA, so what really happened is this: they were losing their butts since the 90's.... they found a way out, a "bail out". they want the feds to bail them out, ala GM and aig.

Having spent decades in the insurance industry I would challenge your statement. And the complexity of regulations was the government. The problem appeared to be complex because politicians convinced you they were complex. It was those idiots who made it complex.

 

[aflachawk]

Only when they are caught...and usually to get caught, many others have to suffer severe losses. Government processes, altho slow and painstaking, are usually pretty thorough and with proper OVERSIGHT effective. Cumbersome, yes...but effective.

Effective oversight??? Another joke. Every piece of oversight the Republicans have done has been panned by you and every dem on here.