Another deadly Tesla crash....

Flie

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If the Tesla thought the exit to the rest stop was part of the highway and barreled through at 70 mph, failing to see the parked truck and slamming into it as what appears to have happened in the picture, then the self-driving technology is not ready for prime time.

If it was self driving. Was that confirmed?
 

dandh

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One of the challenges that will be tough to overcome in the near future is allowing self-driving features around human drivers. Human drivers are idiots and they do unpredictable things. If/when we get to all/most of the cars being autonomous, they can talk to each other in ways today’s drivers can’t. As it is, we put a very small percentage of autonomous vehicles (or partially autonomous) out on the road and when there’s an accident, we blame the robot car.

In this particular crash, we don’t even know for sure if the driver WAS using the partial self-driving control. We certainly don’t know why the driver didn’t interject along the way. Maybe it is a massive Tesla failure or maybe it was someone who flipped on the partial automation and took a nap. We’ll see.
Longer nap than they had planned, if that's the case. Maybe Tesla should re-label the auto-pilot feature "permanent nap mode".

That being said, I saw an equally horrific crash scene in Southern Minnesota a few years ago. Cars had been stopped awaiting road construction on I35 south, and a Dodge Ram had plowed into the rear of a stopped midsized car at full speed. It made v-shaped indentation all the way to the mid-point of the front seat. Both passengers in the car were killed, the pickup driver survived. He reportedly was doing stuff on his phone. Still makes me queasy to think about it.
 
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dandh

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Do you think humans have done the same thing:

A) Never
B) A few dozen times
C) Hundreds of times
D) Thousands of times
E) Tens of thousands of times

What should the acceptable number be?

NHTSA data shows Tesla as much safer per mile driven than other vehicles. Shouldn’t we get the less safe vehicles off the road first?
By that line of thinking, people should not worry if there are three horrific airline crashes by the end of the year. After all, it would still be safer than other modes of transport. But we generally expect a lot more in terms of safety when someone or something else is in charge.
 

BubsFinn

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Disagree. Humans suck at driving. Getting cars to be significantly better than humans is achievable, probably in the near future. They will still make mistakes, it that isn’t a dealbreaker.

Flying cars always was a silly idea, which is why we were never promised any such thing. It is just a fifty year running gag.
Humans may suck at driving, but they are still better than a computer at guessing what other drivers are going to do. A computer may know what the other driver is supposed to do, but it can't correct for the multitude of unexpected actions. Until every car on the road is autonomous and communicates with every other car on the road, there will always be problems.
What happened here is unclear. This kind of accident has certainly happened with regular cars often enough that we shouldn't jump to blaming the technology.
 

seminole97

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By that line of thinking, people should not worry if there are three horrific airline crashes by the end of the year. After all, it would still be safer than other modes of transport. But we generally expect a lot more in terms of safety when someone or something else is in charge.
My point is simply that perfection isn't the standard we can achieve before we adopt this tech.
It sure as hell wasn't in place when we adopted meatbag operators.

Imagine if Tesla's safety record looked like cars in the 1920s, or 1960s, instead of best in the field.
If we held regular cars and people to the standard some want to hold Tesla, we'd still be riding instead of driving.
 

Rifler

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Interesting how many of these Tesla incidents have involved run ins with white tractor trailers,.. Seems like a vision system flaw.
 
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dandh

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My point is simply that perfection isn't the standard we can achieve before we adopt this tech.
It sure as hell wasn't in place when we adopted meatbag operators.

Imagine if Tesla's safety record looked like cars in the 1920s, or 1960s, instead of best in the field.
If we held regular cars and people to the standard some want to hold Tesla, we'd still be riding instead of driving.
And I'm just pointing out that it needs to get better before people will feel comfortable with it. I welcome self-driving vehicles and have posted several times that I eagerly await that development. I really want to remain independent as long as possible, and self-driving cars will be a huge enabler of that in my twilight years.
 

artradley

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Humans may suck at driving, but they are still better than a computer at guessing what other drivers are going to do. A computer may know what the other driver is supposed to do, but it can't correct for the multitude of unexpected actions.

I disagree. The computer is always paying 100% attention, which immediately gives it a massive advantage over the average driver. And the strives that have been made in AI in recent years is astonishing.
 

seminole97

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And I'm just pointing out that it needs to get better before people will feel comfortable with it.
By what metric will you be more comfortable with it than meatbag operators?
‘Cause we may already be there…

To put it another way, I’m not sure I’ll live to see an AI that can out drive a race car driver, but I think we’ll see in practice they outperform the distracted operators we are seeking to replace.
 
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Also have to ask yourself how may autopilot saves have occurred as a result of the technology. I know it stopped me from getting hit by a semi truck in my right rear quarter panel doing 70 with my kids in the car. Guy got hit by a blast of wind that blew him into my lane while I was passing. He was in my blind spot and couldn't see him at all.

It will do things like accelerate forward when you're getting rear ended and then break after being hit so you don't rear end the car in front of you. It swerves way faster than you can react. Seriously watch the video. It wouldn't surprise me if this couple fell asleep or was drunk.

Does the car check to see who is behind you or to the side before swerving to avoid something that’s in front of you? Many of those maneuvers look very dangerous. Especially screeching to a halt at night to avoid a rabbit in the road.
 

dandh

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By what metric will you be more comfortable with it than meatbag operators?
‘Cause we may already be there…

To put it another way, I’m not sure I’ll live to see an AI that can out drive a race car driver, but I think we’ll see in practice they outperform the distracted operators we are seeking to replace.
Better than this article describes.

 
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Better than this article describes.

Well, that’s exactly how I imagine it. Not exactly a ringing endorsement. If you have to be ready at all times to counteract a software error, what is the point? That’s not relaxing at all. I’d save the $10k and just drive.
 

artradley

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Does the car check to see who is behind you or to the side before swerving to avoid something that’s in front of you? Many of those maneuvers look very dangerous. Especially screeching to a halt at night to avoid a rabbit in the road.

Absolutely it does - it is aware of everything going on around it 360-degrees. It has far, far more information about the surroundings than any human can possibly have.
 

seminole97

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Better than this article describes.

That was emotionally evocative stuff, especially about the kids. My take away was that the writer never suggested that autopilot had a problem noticing the pedestrians, and in fact spotted a bicyclist before the author and avoided creating an accident.
My girlfriend in college took a right turn not noticing a cyclist and he plowed into the side of her car.

Do you think we can find any pearl clutching NYC cab rides to read about while I wait to hear what metrics we are going to compare Tesla FSD to meatbags with?


The cab that barreled into a Manhattan building Monday and left six people injured had racked up 18 road violations since late 2019, including for speeding in school zones and running red lights, records show.

A woman who identified herself as the wife of Monday’s 60-year-old taxi driver, Khan Zahangir, told The Post on Tuesday that her husband is struggling after the afternoon mayhem on Broadway between 28th and 29th streets.

“He’s upset,” she said at the Queens home listed for the hack.
 

praguehawk

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Does the car check to see who is behind you or to the side before swerving to avoid something that’s in front of you? Many of those maneuvers look very dangerous. Especially screeching to a halt at night to avoid a rabbit in the road.
No it doesn't do that. You better email those folks at Tesla quick to add this to what they are working on. Who possibly would have thought you need 360 degree checks when driving! Thanks for helping to solve this problem!
 
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No it doesn't do that. You better email those folks at Tesla quick to add this to what they are working on. Who possibly would have thought you need 360 degree checks when driving! Thanks for helping to solve this problem!
I’m sensing your sarcasm.

But I’m asking a genuine question. Let’s say a deer runs out in front of you and you have a car behind and to your sides. Does the computer make a snap judgment to plow through the deer? Or does it default to some preset action?

I really don’t know and not sure how it would substitute for human engagement in this scenario.

Thoughts on this?
 

wcbtee

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teslacrash-crop.jpg


The US federal vehicle auto watchdog dispatched investigators to probe yet another Tesla crash — this time one along Interstate 75 in Florida that killed two people last week.

A Special Crash Investigations team was sent to probe the fatal collission Wednesday, where a 2015 model year Tesla hit the back of a semi-trailer at a rest area near Gainesville, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said Friday.

The agency would not divulge if the Tesla was using the company’s partially automated driving technology.

The vehicle was traveling on Interstate 75 about 2 p.m. Wednesday when, for an unknown reason, it careened into a rest area.

It then traveled into the parking lot and struck the back of a parked Walmart Freightliner tractor-trailer, according to a Florida Highway Patrol press release. The car rear-ended the tractor-trailer, a CBS affiliate reported.

The driver and passenger, both from Lompoc, California, were pronounced dead at the scene. The two who died were a 66-year-old woman and a 67-year-old man, according to a local outlet.

seems to be a bit of trend, no?
 

hawkifann

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I’m sensing your sarcasm.

But I’m asking a genuine question. Let’s say a deer runs out in front of you and you have a car behind and to your sides. Does the computer make a snap judgment to plow through the deer? Or does it default to some preset action?

I really don’t know and not sure how it would substitute for human engagement in this scenario.

Thoughts on this?
One of the hardest problems to solve is how to prioritize and make the safest decision. As a human driver, if I'm surrounded by cars and a squirrel runs out in front of me, I'll hope it misses my wheels. If it's a person, I'll probably risk a sideswipe or rear end collision and do whatever it takes to avoid hitting the person. In other cases, I can plow through a plastic bag but may wreck my car if a similarly sized solid object falls out of a truck ahead of me.

This all requires a ton of processing and AI to recognize a wide range of objects and learn to make the best decision. This will be an ongoing running exercise.
 
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One of the hardest problems to solve is how to prioritize and make the safest decision. As a human driver, if I'm surrounded by cars and a squirrel runs out in front of me, I'll hope it misses my wheels. If it's a person, I'll probably risk a sideswipe or rear end collision and do whatever it takes to avoid hitting the person. In other cases, I can plow through a plastic bag but may wreck my car if a similarly sized solid object falls out of a truck ahead of me.

This all requires a ton of processing and AI to recognize a wide range of objects and learn to make the best decision. This will be an ongoing running exercise.
Thank you. That was my observation on the video and exactly my point/question.
 
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And as others have noted, humans don't always make good or consistent decisions and humans can also misidentify or completely miss objects. You might also make different choices than me even in the exact same scenario.
Yeah, but if I’m on the hook I want to be in control. Don’t want AI deciding for me, at least not yet.
 
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hawkifann

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Yeah, but if I’m on the hook I want to be in control. Don’t want AI deciding for me, at least not yet.
I get it. I'm not even trying to argue that the tech is ready. I don't know if it is and want to see studies. I'll just keep pointing out that we can't set the bar at perfect and humans, on the whole, are not as good as they think they are.
 
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Chewback

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One of the hardest problems to solve is how to prioritize and make the safest decision. As a human driver, if I'm surrounded by cars and a squirrel runs out in front of me, I'll hope it misses my wheels. If it's a person, I'll probably risk a sideswipe or rear end collision and do whatever it takes to avoid hitting the person. In other cases, I can plow through a plastic bag but may wreck my car if a similarly sized solid object falls out of a truck ahead of me.

This all requires a ton of processing and AI to recognize a wide range of objects and learn to make the best decision. This will be an ongoing running exercise.

One of the hardest problems to solve is how to prioritize and make the safest decision. As a human driver, if I'm surrounded by cars and a squirrel runs out in front of me, I'll hope it misses my wheels. If it's a person, I'll probably risk a sideswipe or rear end collision and do whatever it takes to avoid hitting the person. In other cases, I can plow through a plastic bag but may wreck my car if a similarly sized solid object falls out of a truck ahead of me.

This all requires a ton of processing and AI to recognize a wide range of objects and learn to make the best decision. This will be an ongoing running exercise.
When I was 13 my dad started teaching me to drive on the road. I'd already been driving for a few years but only in farm pastures and stuff.

Taught me a lot but the one thing her really hammered on was, "Never get off the road for an animal." Hit the brakes but drive through it. He'd known someone who swerved to avoid hitting some chickens, rolled his car and died. "Drive through them!" Humans are a different matter of course.
 

hawkifann

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When I was 13 my dad started teaching me to drive on the road. I'd already been driving for a few years but only in farm pastures and stuff.

Taught me a lot but the one thing her really hammered on was, "Never get off the road for an animal." Hit the brakes but drive through it. He'd known someone who swerved to avoid hitting some chickens, rolled his car and died. "Drive through them!" Humans are a different matter of course.
So are deer and other large animals.
 

seminole97

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So are deer and other large animals.
There is a stretch of two lane highway (285) that cuts through the Eglin AFB reservation. I recall reading about a truck that struck a deer and sent it through the windshield of an oncoming car.
It went out the back glass.
Driver of the oncoming car did not survive.
 

hawkifann

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There is a stretch of two lane highway (285) that cuts through the Eglin AFB reservation. I recall reading about a truck that struck a deer and sent it through the windshield of an oncoming car.
It went out the back glass.
Driver of the oncoming car did not survive.
That’s hideous.
 

funksouljon

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I’m sensing your sarcasm.

But I’m asking a genuine question. Let’s say a deer runs out in front of you and you have a car behind and to your sides. Does the computer make a snap judgment to plow through the deer? Or does it default to some preset action?

I really don’t know and not sure how it would substitute for human engagement in this scenario.

Thoughts on this?



Yeah, but if I’m on the hook I want to be in control. Don’t want AI deciding for me, at least not yet.


This is a modern spin on the Trolly Problem, which has been debated for 50+ years now. Funny it was also in I, Robot and IMO was one of the (IMO, but they did discuss) under stressed points of conflict in the story.

Computer is 100% going to be more aware of all the factors. The final decision of the "best" outcome will always be judged after the fact with time and a clear head. We will reply in a emotional fashion while an agreed upon code base will likely make a decision that is "better" with clear programming. That isn't 100% yet.
 
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The Tradition

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I disagree. The computer is always paying 100% attention, which immediately gives it a massive advantage over the average driver. And the strives that have been made in AI in recent years is astonishing.

Computers have malfunctions all the damn time. The computer I'm typing on right now is pretty speedy 95 percent of the time.

But sometimes, it has some sort of issue where it's not responding to my commands for whatever technical reason.

That's NOT paying 100% attention.
 

globalhawk

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Computers have malfunctions all the damn time. The computer I'm typing on right now is pretty speedy 95 percent of the time.

But sometimes, it has some sort of issue where it's not responding to my commands for whatever technical reason.

That's NOT paying 100% attention.
Tesla probably doesn't use refurbished computers.
 

FSUTribe76

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I guess it partially didn't notice it was advancing on a parked truck at a high rate of speed.

Did you RTFA? It’s a 7-8 year old Tesla not a new model. Even if it was proven it was not the elderly driver’s fault but a computer error….who cares whether or not an 8 year old computer is still up to snuff?
 

artradley

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Computers have malfunctions all the damn time. The computer I'm typing on right now is pretty speedy 95 percent of the time.

But sometimes, it has some sort of issue where it's not responding to my commands for whatever technical reason.

That's NOT paying 100% attention.

I don’t think cars are going to be using Windows as their OS.

You realize that computers with an immeasurably smaller capacity than the average desktop successfully have guided rockers to the moon and other planets, don’t your? Your inability to grasp how this could work does not change the chances of it working.
 

The Tradition

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Did you RTFA? It’s a 7-8 year old Tesla not a new model. Even if it was proven it was not the elderly driver’s fault but a computer error….who cares whether or not an 8 year old computer is still up to snuff?

Aren't they getting software updates and patches all the time?

And if the hardware can't handle that, should they be allowed on the road????
 

*hawksrock*

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OK I'll derail this thread, lol, sort of. Walmart and tesla will both be named in lawsuits by the estate/estates of the deceased persons families.
Surely the Walmart truck was illegally parked!!!!
 
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Chewback

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So are deer and other large animal

I don’t think cars are going to be using Windows as their OS.

You realize that computers with an immeasurably smaller capacity than the average desktop successfully have guided rockers to the moon and other planets, don’t your? Your inability to grasp how this could work does not change the chances of it working.
Hey, have you ever met a computer programmer? Do you want him driving your car for you? I thought not.
 
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funksouljon

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Hey, have you ever met a computer programmer? Do you want him driving your car for you? I thought not.


Except, at least a half dozen of people all working together to develop, check, test, redevelop code, retest, then stress test then regression it's integration with other interfaces isn't the same thing as having a chauffeur. Your analogy really exposes how little you know about computer software and why you think it is scary. Very similar to Ash and his boom stick leaving the village in awe.

Have you ever flown on a plane, you know who coded the software?


And this discounts the hours and hours of requirements validations with subject matter experts.
 

The Tradition

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Except, at least a half dozen of people all working together to develop, check, test, redevelop code, retest, then stress test then regression it's integration with other interfaces isn't the same thing as having a chauffeur. Your analogy really exposes how little you know about computer software and why you think it is scary. Very similar to Ash and his boom stick leaving the village in awe.

Have you ever flown on a plane, you know who coded the software?

And what happens when China hacks your airplane or your Tesla?

I'm honestly considering only driving "classic" cars for the rest of my life that are not connected to the internet in any way, shape or fashion.
 

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