Another deadly Tesla crash....

*hawksrock*

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Face it, you are just a luddite.



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funksouljon

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Bottom line: Computers crash. There's no way around that. It's what they do.

And if a computer is controlling your car and that computer crashes, then you and your car crash.

Not good.


No, computers compute. They do, in some cases, crash but, in cases of autopilot it isn't the computer, it is the software that likely has an issue. While it sounds the same, it isn't. No one is saying here or anywhere else that failures don't occur, however, it is the exception and not the rule. Thats a fiction you have created to support your incorrect knowledge. There are pretty clear instructions and guidance that a person always needs to be awake and aware of the situation as the fail safe. You have again created a false narrative.

I don't blame the hair dryer that electrifies the person in the shower. I blame the weakest link, the person for not using the technology correctly.

BTW, has it been established that this crash was caused by an attentive driver who failed to take over control when the car's full autopilot was activated?
 

Joes Place

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No, computers compute. They do, in some cases, crash but, in cases of autopilot it isn't the computer, it is the software that likely has an issue. While it sounds the same, it isn't. No one is saying here or anywhere else that failures don't occur, however, it is the exception and not the rule. Thats a fiction you have created to support your incorrect knowledge. There are pretty clear instructions and guidance that a person always needs to be awake and aware of the situation as the fail safe. You have again created a false narrative.

I don't blame the hair dryer that electrifies the person in the shower. I blame the weakest link, the person for not using the technology correctly.

BTW, has it been established that this crash was caused by an attentive driver who failed to take over control when the car's full autopilot was activated?

Last I'd checked, airlines weren't pushing "Beta autopilot" versions in their products.
And their software doesn't have to contend with anywhere near the level of stuff a ground/road based vehicle does...
 

The Tradition

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No, computers compute. They do, in some cases, crash but, in cases of autopilot it isn't the computer, it is the software that likely has an issue. While it sounds the same, it isn't. No one is saying here or anywhere else that failures don't occur, however, it is the exception and not the rule. Thats a fiction you have created to support your incorrect knowledge. There are pretty clear instructions and guidance that a person always needs to be awake and aware of the situation as the fail safe. You have again created a false narrative.

I don't blame the hair dryer that electrifies the person in the shower. I blame the weakest link, the person for not using the technology correctly.

BTW, has it been established that this crash was caused by an attentive driver who failed to take over control when the car's full autopilot was activated?

As for your last point, no.... the NHTSA hasn't completed their investigation yet.

As for your middle point, that's just stupid. If someone drove their Tesla into a lake, that would be your "hair dryer in the shower" example.

As for your first point: HOW MANY TIMES has the computer you're typing on RIGHT NOW done something that you didn't intend it to do? Or freeze up? Or otherwise fail to do what it's supposed to do in a timely fashion?

But we're going to let computers drive cars for some reason????
 

The Tradition

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And let's talk about computer programming, which is really just an intense version of "logic":

If the computer detects something that it hasn't been programmed to "see"... or detects two things happening that can't be resolved by the programmers' logic... then what happens?

Probably what happened in the OP.
 

seminole97

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As for your first point: HOW MANY TIMES has the computer you're typing on RIGHT NOW done something that you didn't intend it to do? Or freeze up? Or otherwise fail to do what it's supposed to do in a timely fashion?

But we're going to let computers drive cars for some reason????
Humans do that too, the issue before us is to establish metrics and study rates.

I’ll never forget riding with a friend who was 16 or 17. I’m in the passenger seat of this ‘88 Tempo and he takes a corner in a residential neighborhood after a rain too fast and the back end of this front wheel drive stepped out. Sonuvabitch throws his hands up in front of himself like a black and white scary movie poster. I recall so distinctly thinking, “bitch, I’m supposed to be the one riding! Get your hands on the wheel!”
We just slid to a stop in someone’s yard, but my faith in other drivers has never been restored. Y’all suck. I got the numbers to prove it.
 

The Tradition

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Humans do that too, the issue before us is to establish metrics and study rates.

I’ll never forget riding with a friend who was 16 or 17. I’m in the passenger seat of this ‘88 Tempo and he takes a corner in a residential neighborhood after a rain too fast and the back end of this front wheel drive stepped out. Sonuvabitch throws his hands up in front of himself like a black and white scary movie poster. I recall so distinctly thinking, “bitch, I’m supposed to be the one riding! Get your hands on the wheel!”
We just slid to a stop in someone’s yard, but my faith in other drivers has never been restored. Y’all suck. I got the numbers to prove it.

No way! I had an '88 Tempo! What an amazing piece of crap that car was.
 

seminole97

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No way! I had an '88 Tempo! What an amazing piece of crap that car was.
Then you can appreciate this story too.
Another time it is raining.
He has the window cracked because he’s smoking a cigarette like all the cool kids in high school.
Goes to throw it out the window, but the wind through the slit just blows it back in his lap, he’s fighting for it, eyes off the road, doesn’t realize truck in front of us is slowing for a car in front of it turning left.
Another distracted driver accident.
 

artradley

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And let's talk about computer programming, which is really just an intense version of "logic":

If the computer detects something that it hasn't been programmed to "see"... or detects two things happening that can't be resolved by the programmers' logic... then what happens?

Probably what happened in the OP.

So, of course, it is impossible that computers could guide rockets, satellites, or aircraft. Despite the fact that they have been doing it successfully for decades.

Your computer on your desktop has an OS designed to handle any of a million generic tasks that might be asked of it, holding software from dozens if not hundreds of different software vendors of various reliability. Occasionally these programs interfere with each other, or wreak havoc on each other in a myriad of unpredictable ways.

A car, or plane, or satellite has a computer designed to do one thing, with a stable and predictable software environment. It is in no way similar to a home computer environment. Which is why, despite your argument that it can’t possibly work, it already does so in a vast number of complex environments.

Computers with much less capacity than an 80’s era Nintendo guided ships to the moon.
 

Joes Place

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So, of course, it is impossible that computers could guide rockets, satellites, or aircraft. Despite the fact that they have been doing it successfully for decades.
Very little for them to "run into"

Really, a completely different problem, requiring completely different learning algorithms.
 
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artradley

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Last I'd checked, airlines weren't pushing "Beta autopilot" versions in their products.
And their software doesn't have to contend with anywhere near the level of stuff a ground/road based vehicle does...

That is a separate and legitimate question. But the discussion here, so far as I can tell, is the OP believes it is impossible that cars could ever be designed to drive themselves in a manner that is safer than humans. Many of us disagree.
 
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NorHawk16

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Absolutely it does - it is aware of everything going on around it 360-degrees. It has far, far more information about the surroundings than any human can possibly have.
Until it doesn't. I work on electronic equipment and the like everyday. Shits always breaking or software glitches constantly causing issues. You'll never ever catch me driving anything I don't have control of. EVER
 
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Hawk_4shur

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"The vehicle was traveling on Interstate 75 about 2 p.m. Wednesday when, for an unknown reason, it careened into a rest area."

Wait - it careened? Maybe they had to take a leak?
 

Flie

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As for your last point, no.... the NHTSA hasn't completed their investigation yet.

As for your middle point, that's just stupid. If someone drove their Tesla into a lake, that would be your "hair dryer in the shower" example.

As for your first point: HOW MANY TIMES has the computer you're typing on RIGHT NOW done something that you didn't intend it to do? Or freeze up? Or otherwise fail to do what it's supposed to do in a timely fashion?

But we're going to let computers drive cars for some reason????

Tell me you are clueless about technology without telling me. Computers that run life or death type processes or otherwise super mission critical tasks aren't running Windows or Mac OS. Most of them are embedded computers built to only perform very specific functions and are extremely reliable. A person is more likely to fail than these computers. Have you heard of any reports of a Tesla autopilot computer crashing? Not crashing the car, the autopilot computer crashing.

An overly simplistic comparison is your computer's BIOS vs the desktop OS. Has your BIOS ever crashed or just randomly done something unexpected? The only time I've seen a BIOS have issues is when somebody screwed it up trying to flash it to a new version and failed the update in midstream. Many of the purpose built function computers don't even have an OS. There are also real time operating systems that don't crash and are used in stuff like air traffic control, medical devices, spaceflight, robotics, military etc...

People fear what they don't understand.

Also, a Tesla falling into water won't electrocute the occupants. It's almost like the engineers thought through stuff like this.
 

artradley

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Tell me you are clueless about technology without telling me. Computers that run life or death type processes or otherwise super mission critical tasks aren't running Windows or Mac OS. Most of them are embedded computers built to only perform very specific functions and are extremely reliable. A person is more likely to fail than these computers. Have you heard of any reports of a Tesla autopilot computer crashing? Not crashing the car, the autopilot computer crashing.

An overly simplistic comparison is your computer's BIOS vs the desktop OS. Has your BIOS ever crashed or just randomly done something unexpected? The only time I've seen a BIOS have issues is when somebody screwed it up trying to flash it to a new version and failed the update in midstream. Many of the purpose built function computers don't even have an OS. There are also real time operating systems that don't crash and are used in stuff like air traffic control, medical devices, spaceflight, robotics, military etc...

People fear what they don't understand.

Also, a Tesla falling into water won't electrocute the occupants. It's almost like the engineers thought through stuff like this.

That's what I tried to explain in an earlier post, but you did a better job of it. Thanks.
 
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Here’s the thing. I would love to have a self-driving car. Jump in, punch in a destination and the car does the rest. I can close my eyes and rest, read, work, watch a show, whatever. That is full self-driving. That would be awesome.

Anything that requires me to monitor the road, keep my hands on the wheel or be ready to react is not (IMO) full self-driving and isn’t that much different than driving now.
 
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Urohawk

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Does the car check to see who is behind you or to the side before swerving to avoid something that’s in front of you? Many of those maneuvers look very dangerous. Especially screeching to a halt at night to avoid a rabbit in the road.
It's got cameras on both sides and actively identifying objects. For example it know when I have a truck next to me versus a car, pedestrian versus bicycle, etc. It won't swerve you if there is an object next door. The car also learns and uploads information on your daily route, etc.
 

Rifler

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Here’s the thing. I would love to have a self-driving car. Jump in, punch in a destination and the car does the rest. I can close my eyes and rest, read, work, watch a show, whatever. That is full self-driving. That would be awesome.

Anything that requires me to monitor the road, keep my hands on the wheel or be ready to react is not (IMO) full self-driving and isn’t that much different than driving now.

In my mind it's even more dangerous, since most drivers would be lulled into complacency...
 
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Except, at least a half dozen of people all working together to develop, check, test, redevelop code, retest, then stress test then regression it's integration with other interfaces isn't the same thing as having a chauffeur. Your analogy really exposes how little you know about computer software and why you think it is scary. Very similar to Ash and his boom stick leaving the village in awe.

Have you ever flown on a plane, you know who coded the software?


And this discounts the hours and hours of requirements validations with subject matter experts.

That’s an ass whippin’ right there. 😂 Excellent post @funksouljon
 

Bank of Hawk

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One of the things that concerns me is privacy. We already give up way to much with smart phones, now corporations will have real time access to where we are going; will my Tesla take over, drive me to a McDonalds without my permission because my iPhone says I’m hungry? What if I want to pick up a hooker or score some blow in privacy? Will that even be possible in your own car in the future?
 
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One of the things that concerns me is privacy. We already give up way to much with smart phones, now corporations will have real time access to where we are going; will my Tesla take over, drive me to a McDonalds without my permission because my iPhone says I’m hungry? What if I want to pick up a hooker or score some blow in privacy? Will that even be possible in your own car in the future?
And cost. BMW has introduced a subscription model for certain features. Heated seats? $200 per year. Etc. A software-based vehicle just makes it easier to tack on extra cost.

I’ve read that the FSD Beta option costs like $10k and yet even if you buy it you may not have access to it, and if you do have it you can get booted off and no longer have access.

In other words, drivers pay Tesla for the (maybe) privilege of being in the beta test for FSD, but you can lose access permanently if you have five disengagements, meaning you took your eyes off the road for too long, or didn’t hold the steering wheel for 60 seconds, or drive above a certain speed.

No wonder Musk is the richest man in the world!
 
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And cost. BMW has introduced a subscription model for certain features. Heated seats? $200 per year. Etc. A software-based vehicle just makes it easier to tack on extra cost.

I’ve read that the FSD Beta option costs like $10k and yet even if you buy it you may not have access to it, and if you do have it you can get booted off and no longer have access.

In other words, drivers pay Tesla for the (maybe) privilege of being in the beta test for FSD, but you can lose access permanently if you have five disengagements, meaning you took your eyes off the road for too long, or didn’t hold the steering wheel for 60 seconds, or drive above a certain speed.

No wonder Musk is the richest man in the world!

What other driver features make up “FSD” software?

There are 6 that are included that have nothing to do with the ‘FSD Beta’ (autosteer on city streets) program.
 

EagleHawk

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OK I'll derail this thread, lol, sort of. Walmart and tesla will both be named in lawsuits by the estate/estates of the deceased persons families.
Surely the Walmart truck was illegally parked!!!

Walmart probably didn't have a strong enough 'bumper' under the trailer.

 

Joes Place

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Tell me you are clueless about technology without telling me. Computers that run life or death type processes or otherwise super mission critical tasks aren't running Windows or Mac OS. Most of them are embedded computers built to only perform very specific functions and are extremely reliable. A person is more likely to fail than these computers. Have you heard of any reports of a Tesla autopilot computer crashing? Not crashing the car, the autopilot computer crashing.

An overly simplistic comparison is your computer's BIOS vs the desktop OS. Has your BIOS ever crashed or just randomly done something unexpected? The only time I've seen a BIOS have issues is when somebody screwed it up trying to flash it to a new version and failed the update in midstream. Many of the purpose built function computers don't even have an OS. There are also real time operating systems that don't crash and are used in stuff like air traffic control, medical devices, spaceflight, robotics, military etc...

People fear what they don't understand.

Also, a Tesla falling into water won't electrocute the occupants. It's almost like the engineers thought through stuff like this.
The thing it, BIOS and other "critical systems" are not release to the "general public" in Beta versions to be operated under "critical systems conditions".

They are "limited release", and done so in a controlled manner to thoroughly evaluate them BEFORE they are platformed to the masses.

That does not appear to be how Tesla's software is being rolled out...
 
Feb 9, 2013
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The thing it, BIOS and other "critical systems" are not release to the "general public" in Beta versions to be operated under "critical systems conditions".

They are "limited release", and done so in a controlled manner to thoroughly evaluate them BEFORE they are platformed to the masses.

That does not appear to be how Tesla's software is being rolled out...
From what I can tell, it actually is. Certain owners have the FSD Beta enabled but have to adhere to certain driving criteria. The article I read was by a guy who got booted from the FSD group because he or his wife didn’t comply fully.

Sounds like the Beta testing is how Tesla is learning and continually improving the driving software through real world driving. Almost like a clinical trial, I suppose.
 
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No idea. Just relaying what I read. I look forward to wide adoption of the technology some day.

Here you go

FSD Suite fully activated:
Navigate on Autopilot
Auto Lane Change
Autopark
Summon
Smart Summon
Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control

Not currently activated in FSD suite:
“Autosteer on city streets”
^this is the “FSD Beta” program that everyone commonly associates with autonomous driving.
 
Feb 9, 2013
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Here you go

FSD Suite fully activated:
Navigate on Autopilot
Auto Lane Change
Autopark
Summon
Smart Summon
Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control

Not currently activated in FSD suite:
“Autosteer on city streets”
^this is the “FSD Beta” program that everyone commonly associates with autonomous driving.
Are you saying the Beta is not being used? I’m reading all sorts of articles reviewing it (by drivers with it activated). Basically the testers for Tesla.
 
Dec 31, 2014
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Are you saying the Beta is not being used? I’m reading all sorts of articles reviewing it (by drivers with it activated). Basically the testers for Tesla.

No, rather that Autosteer on city streets is not automatically activated when someone purchases “FSD”

What some refer to as “FSD” or “FSD Beta” is actually the software called ‘Autosteer on city streets’ which is the beta program that approximately 60,000 Tesla owners have been participating in. One needs to exhibit exceptionally safe driving and confirm that they will monitor the system at all times and be ready to take over at any time.

The point is that there are over one million Teslas on American roads and 940,000 of them are not operating on “FSD” or “FSD beta” or autonomous driving.

Any time you see a Tesla in an accident it is much safer to assume the driver was operating the vehicle, not FSD Beta autosteer on city streets.
 
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hawkifann

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In my mind it's even more dangerous, since most drivers would be lulled into complacency...
The ideal scenario is every car is automated and doing its thing, communicating with the cars around it. What’s now a turn signal to show you’re going left could be your car letting the cars around you know that it’s going left in 1.6 miles. So many things become orderly and predictable. Our big challenge is the period of time when the autonomous vehicles are emerging while the road is still full of meatbag idiots.

Not every human driver sucks, but a large percentage do.
 

funksouljon

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The ideal scenario is every car is automated and doing its thing, communicating with the cars around it. What’s now a turn signal to show you’re going left could be your car letting the cars around you know that it’s going left in 1.6 miles. So many things become orderly and predictable. Our big challenge is the period of time when the autonomous vehicles are emerging while the road is still full of meatbag idiots.

Not every human driver sucks, but a large percentage do.


Expanding on that, standardization of the decision process and software so that they all communicate across manufacturers seamlessly will be a challenge. Ford has a more "aggressive" tolerance with when to change lanes, the Chevy cars will always slow and allow the other in front etc etc. But vehicles talking to each other while a mile apart seems very futuristic but isn't that far down the road.

While I love driving, and will never give it up completely, I do look forward to having everyone in an automated self driving car. Everyone THINKS they are better than average.
 

The Tradition

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Expanding on that, standardization of the decision process and software so that they all communicate across manufacturers seamlessly will be a challenge. Ford has a more "aggressive" tolerance with when to change lanes, the Chevy cars will always slow and allow the other in front etc etc. But vehicles talking to each other while a mile apart seems very futuristic but isn't that far down the road.

While I love driving, and will never give it up completely, I do look forward to having everyone in an automated self driving car. Everyone THINKS they are better than average.

The fun will come when human drivers become politically incorrect.

Hopefully I'll be dead by then.
 

The Tradition

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By ‘politically incorrect’, do you mean demonstrably more dangerous to themselves and others on the roadways?

No, just the political winds blowing that way.

I can imagine news stories that say, "A major crash occurred on the freeway today, sparked by a human driver who disrupted the algorithm."
 

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