To the talk about Fran’s behavior at the Cedar Falls game while he was recruiting Geerdes and watching Jack play.
Any Truth?
- Thread starter Hawkbaby
- Start date
Eliot was there and said he buzzed at a ref saying you suck. More then he's been doing all year for his college team.
Perhaps he should be getting on his 6’8 son for only having 2 rebounds in a high school basketball game rather than being on the refs.
Lol another Patrick
Why would he chastise his son for something he doesn't demand that his players do during their own games?
That would be quite hypocritical of him.
I'm so over the high school ref hate. Stfu or join.
that doesn't even sound real if he played the entire game and wasn't in foul trouble. Wow.
This is nothing new for Fran. He has done this for awhile watching his kids play.
While I'm generally with you that fan behavior is out of control bad at a lot of schools, officiating has been so inconsistent and awful the last three years in particular.
You get some of these crews with this "I'm better than you" mentality and are already talking down to kids and coaches from the start and then go on to be so inconsistent with hands on defense, bumping/ grabbing in the lane, block/ charge, etc...
Better yet, they will tell you exactly what they are looking for and then do the opposite during the game. It's maddening. As a coach, you just tell your kids they have to deal with it but it's hard for kids when they don't understand what a foul is or isn't going to be.
Back to the point at hand. ADs need to start kicking more fans out. One warning (unless it's a threat, using profanity, or really targeted) and then gone for multiple games.
As a long time HS official who's worked with a bunch of different officials this year - I understand where you are coming from as a coach and the frustration with the inconsistancy. Local officials groups are doing what they can - but I don't see quality vastly improving anytime soon, and there are a million reasons for that.
The vast majority of the games are assigned by conference commissioners who do little to no work in helping to recruit or develop new officials. That work is left to local officials associations, who do what they can - but they are often stuck plugging holes with the lower level games where the shortage is felt most sharply. As soon as a young official can walk and chew gum, they are often pushed into varsity games far too soon. Some sink, some swim.
For far too long the IHSAA and IGHSAU has limited state basketball opportunities to a select few who work the games year after year after year. There are many officials who have been more that capable of working state games over the years, but never got the opportunity. Some get frustrated and quit. Some get jaded and surly. Many in that category end up working a ton of regular season varsity games. The girls union is starting to get slightly better at rotating in newer guys, the boy's situation is a joke.
Local administrators are often far too afraid of parents and the power they hold to properly do their job to enforce good sportsmanship at games, leaving it to us to be the bad guys. I'm sure coaches feel the same about dealing with parent issues.
In a perfect world, repeat offenders like the McCaffery's and Mr. Joens would have been properly dealt with long ago. Those are just two high profile examples, but most schools probably have their own version of these parents who don't belong in a high school sports enviornment.
I cannot imagine being a referee at a high school game or a club game for that matter. Coaches, fans, etc would be just awful to deal with
Thanks for doing your job and for others out there who allow high school sports to happen. I am greatly appreciative of the guys and girls who genuinely do their best.
The good news with Joens is that he's pretty much banned everywhere anyway. He's your biggest fish to fry and City doesn't do much to tighten the reigns on anyone who is moderately successful at that school. Their principal sure loves to wield power over others and if your cheating to help City? Who cares, good work.
But to that point. This is where as educators we need to say enough is enough. We get blamed for everything under the sun and everything we do is wrong to certain sects of parents. They throw us through the mud in emails, to other parents and schools, our friends in town, everyone. Yet we are told to stay quiet and just "let them have the last word". Why? Why do we give up power to people who make false accusations because their kid is not good enough to take a spot? They just want to blame everyone else for their problems and nobody ever calls them out. The Karen's, litetally, are being emboldened by the schools.
To your main point, hallelujah to calling out the boys and girls organizations. For one of the sports I coach, I no longer think we will be using the assignor. He's vindictive towards refs who are young and asking for more opportunities and continues to put the crusty crews out there who can't keep up with play... but "they have so much experience." Ignore that they were terrible when I was playing and that they are even older and slower now. This assignor has made two officials who were getting better and better quit and neither was over 35. It is so frustrating...
When I started nearly 30 years ago at age 20 I was one of the youngest in the room in an officials meeting. Today, I'm still one of the younger officials in an officials meeting. That should tell you something.
I get wanting to "get rid of" the old crusty guys. But frankly we need them. The state needs to do a better job of re-engaging with those veterans and make them feel valued and appreciated. There is no incentive to get better when you don't think you are being treated fairly or you don't think you will ever have an opportunity to be rewarded for your work.
I get wanting to "get rid of" the old crusty guys. But frankly we need them. The state needs to do a better job of re-engaging with those veterans and make them feel valued and appreciated. There is no incentive to get better when you don't think you are being treated fairly or you don't think you will ever have an opportunity to be rewarded for your work.
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It's not the ref's job to remove fans. That falls on game management. At the high school level that is often the athletic director.
I actually think it’s way worse at club games. At least in High school the admin are there as well as a few police as needed, at least in KS. No oversight in club ball which of course then leads to the many brawls you’ve seen over the years.
Try being a school down in 1A where refs don't want to come anyway, then you get the utter trash refs who don't even know what they are calling half the time, or even better the refs that think everybody is there to just watch them and try to make a "play" out of every call....It is getting to the point that the best games are the ones you walk into the gym and don't recognize any of the refs.....
I have done enough reffing in my life to know how bad fans can get, but when the refs are clueless and not calling things consistently on both ends of the floor they bring on enough of the crap they get
I agree with everything you’ve posted.
It’s the same here in Colorado.
I officiated for 18 years before I blew my knee playing basketball a few years ago.
I believe the no. 1 way to get better officiating in high school is to have strong AD’s & a police presence at every sporting event.
Kick the shitty parents out of the gyms permanently if they won’t stop making a scene.
The parents & coaches run off so many young officials.
They drive them to quit just as they’re starting to get good or before they even have a chance to get there.
Better sportsmanship by spectators will lead to officials getting better at their jobs.
Funny how that works, if the parents will be more respectable the refs will get better. When the refs get better, there won’t be as much for the parents to complain about.
Pretty simple actually.
That’s facts.
This is the dumbest response ever. Look what I underlined - you accuse others of cheating to help city and then ask why we give power to people who make false accusations. I think you are the Karen. And you are completely full of $hit about cheating to help City.
if you berate or bitch about a HS official you are a ****ing embarrassment. There is no arguement otherwise. GFY.
The state has a big problem with basketball officiating! I don’t know what the fix is but there are guys out there that have no business officiating high school games…
So just a random second hand account lol. I could see him doing this previous years, but not recently.
the problem is nobody wants to be subjected to abuse for games that mean absolutly nothing in the grand scheme of life. nobody gives a **** except the people in that 3-4 year bubble. 99.9 percent of the rest of the population won't know, remember, or GAF what happened. And the kids playing wont either when they enter the real world.
Schools are terrified of parents. It didn't used to be that way, but now they seem to get to do whatever they want (in school and extracurricular activities, both) with no regard to staff. Really makes you feel valued and appreciated.
I’m an official so I know a little bit about what we go through. In my experience if you do your job with your partners it takes most of the chatter out of the equation.
100% agreed. Youth sports are a cluster of bad sports and me me me type attitudes. In all sports. Hoops, football, baseball, etc. I’m glad my kids are through high school sports and in to college athletics.
99% of parents use it as social hour running their kids to tournaments, in every sport, every weekend of the year. There’s no off season anymore for kids to get stronger/faster and become a better athlete, because mom and dad are running all over the Midwest to get little Timmy to another tournament. The adults ruined it when they saw the $$$ grab in youth sports and the parents fell for it.
Absolutely. Youth sports is a money grab and nothing more.
AAU basketball used to be for the elite player. Now, anyone can pay the $$, join a club, and then get all the "swag" and walk around pretending to be something they are not.
When my son was playing the circuit when in HS - we traveled 6 hours to play in a big tourney (MO) - we see in the draw we are playing a team from Florida. Figured they would be a tough opponent traveling all that way. HA - they were the worst group of misfits I've ever seen - they lost every game by 50+
But I'm guessing that the coach is using this as a way to make a living - hence the money grab
When my son was playing the circuit when in HS - we traveled 6 hours to play in a big tourney (MO) - we see in the draw we are playing a team from Florida. Figured they would be a tough opponent traveling all that way. HA - they were the worst group of misfits I've ever seen - they lost every game by 50+
But I'm guessing that the coach is using this as a way to make a living - hence the money grab
I heard he yelled you fu**ing suck.
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CSB, our middle school had just started up school ball the year before in Kansas City. They decided since it was just starting out to have basically no cut, so we had 5-6 teams. I coached what was called the B1 team. Obviously the 10 best kids went to the A1 team, next group of 10 was A2. So not 1 kid on my team had ever played any real type of organized game. I had a pretty good little athlete at pt guard who was a football player who had never played bball before, but was super quick and coachable. Last game of the season and we were shooting free throws on the other end. I called him over to tell him what defense to run and he walked off the court by 1 step to talk to me and the ref gave him a T. Probably the right call but again, it was the B1 game. Made a little comment to the ref that maybe he could give the kid a break and he absolutely went off an T'd me up as well. He then came over to me at halftime and proceeded to tell me that if I ever showed him up like that again he would see me in the parking lot. And then stood glaring at me like Fran in the MIchigan St game. Funniest thing I've ever seen. I noticed he was doing the high school game of the number 1 team and the number 3 team in Kansas Friday night. Could not believe it. Total clown show.
I'm not trying to excuse what is obviously poor behavior, but let me offer a possible perspective.
Rarely are you just doing a B game, this might be one of two, three or more junior high games you're doing in a row. Locally, by the time we get to the B game (after C and A games), patience is running thin, you've been hearing crap from coaches and fans for a couple of hours, and the quailty of play is not good - but athletic enough to foul, usually a lot. It can be a frustrating level to officiate (and I'm sure frustrating to coach at times).
You mentioned that the official was later officiating a high level varsity game. It could be that he just works a lot at all levels, or perhaps he was helping out on a night when they couldn't find enough junior high refs. When I work "down" a level or two, it takes a lot of effort to not get defensive when players/coaches/fans question your ability.
Would it be better that these games were just cancelled, rather than working them with officials that are either not ready, or so overworked and frustrated that it leads to trouble? Perhaps. I'm not sure what would best serve the game or the athetes sometimes.
We all have bad days. Again, it doesn't excuse the behavior. Just worth considering.
I'm sure the guy did/does a lot of games. If I'm remembering correctly, it was a weeknight game, maybe 4pm or so and the A games were in 1 gym and the B games in another. So this was his first game of the day/early evening. He basically told me he didn't care what level it was and to never question him. If he would have came over and said sorry my man, I've got to call it on him, I understand he probably didn't know what he was doing but rules are rules I probably would have laughed it off and used it as a coaching moment. Then it would have been no big deal. And I wasn't going to let a guy act that way to me. Maybe he was having a bad day, I get it but it was totally unprofessional. The middle school AD of the other team had to come over at halftime and talk to him.
My nephew was an All state catcher and played DI baseball. He umpired high school baseball but got worked over by the fans so much he quit and will never go back.
He knew the game like few do but still hated the fans. Guessing a college catcher would know the strike zone but according to the fans he didn’t.
In Iowa they are so desperate only 1 ump even needs to be “official” to have a game. Otherwise a lot of games would be cancelled.
I agree. Admin and police need to be present and make it loud and clear it’s zero tolerance.
He knew the game like few do but still hated the fans. Guessing a college catcher would know the strike zone but according to the fans he didn’t.
In Iowa they are so desperate only 1 ump even needs to be “official” to have a game. Otherwise a lot of games would be cancelled.
I agree. Admin and police need to be present and make it loud and clear it’s zero tolerance.
I'm a former AD. I kicked out "fans" from both teams who couldn't behave. That is is why I am now a former AD. The community didn't like it.
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