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Carly Fiorina, Gaining in Polls, Moves to Secure Spot in 2nd G.O.P. Debate

cigaretteman

HB King
May 29, 2001
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Wants to change the rules in the middle of the game:

When Carly Fiorina found herself relegated to the so-called undercard stage for the first Republican primary debate this month, she seized the opportunity to stand out. Clad in a bright pink suit — the only woman in a sea of men — she delivered a forceful performance that catapulted her into the national spotlight and generated a bounce in public polls.

But Mrs. Fiorina, the former Hewlett-Packard executive, wants to be on the main stage at the second Republican debate next month. And she is waging a public war with both CNN, which is hosting the debate, and the Republican National Committee, which her campaign accused on Wednesday of “rigging the game” to keep her out of the prime-time event.

CNN, which released its debate criteria in May, is planning to use an average of public polls dating to mid-July to determine which 10 candidates will appear in the main debate.

Because that calculation would include many surveys that were done before the first debate, in which Mrs. Fiorina delivered a strong performance, it would not fully capture her gains in recent polls, some of which show her near the top of the Republican field.

Recognizing that Mrs. Fiorina may be excluded from the prime-time debate, costing her crucial exposure and dampening fund-raising efforts, her campaign has sought to turn the likely snub into a public relations victory, in an effort to win her sympathy and attract support from anti-establishment Republicans.

The dispute with CNN and the Republican National Committee, which awarded the debate to the network, allows Mrs. Fiorina to emphasize her outsider status, in a category with Donald J. Trump and the retired surgeon Ben Carson, both of whom are winning over voters in part because they are not career politicians.

Asked about her battle over the debate criteria at a packed event in Cushing, Iowa, on Wednesday night, Mrs. Fiorina pointedly criticized the network and the party.

“Let’s forget that I’m a woman,” Mrs. Fiorina, who is the only female Republican candidate, said when asked about the debate. “I’m in the top five in every state poll and the top 10 in national polls. So what does that say about CNN and the R.N.C.?”

She continued: “I’m going to keep doing what I’ve been doing, coming out here and talking to voters. As people get to know me, they support me. And you see that in the polls, and you’re going to continue to see that in the polls. I’ll let CNN and the R.N.C. decide how they look if I’m not on that stage.”

Both CNN and the Republican National Committee have said that since the rules for the debate were released months ago, all the candidates knew the ground rules, and it would be improper — and illegal — to change them now.

Mrs. Fiorina’s campaign nevertheless called on the Republican National Committee to push CNN to change its criteria.
“All candidates are aware of the law that the media organizations set the debate criteria, as the candidates asked,” said Sean Spicer, a spokesman for the committee. “CNN released its criteria over four months ago. All candidates were well aware of what it would take to get into the two segments that CNN is hosting.”

Some Republican strategists said that Mrs. Fiorina could emerge a winner even by losing a shot at the top-tier debate.

“Social media will light up in anger if she is consistently polling at 5 percent — consistently in the top 10 — and ends up being denied because of a technicality,” said Frank Luntz, a Republican political consultant and pollster. “Social media is running this election cycle, and it’s a voice that’s outside and powerful.”

On the other hand, Mrs. Fiorina might not have stood out so much in the first debate, in Cleveland, if she were on the stage with the top-polling candidates at an event that was dominated by Donald J. Trump. So there may be an advantage to her to continue to face the candidates trailing the field.

The networks themselves are grappling with how to deal with the large Republican field. Their criteria need to be fair, but can inadvertently end up excluding certain candidates, like Mrs. Fiorina, who could be good for ratings.

“I am sure Priebus would gladly trade Fiorina for Trump,” said John Feehery, a Republican strategist, referring to Reince Priebus, the Republican National Committee chairman. “CNN, of course, wants both because it maximizes the ratings.”

In retrospect, CNN’s criteria for inclusion in its debate seems intended to make it hard for a second-tier candidate to move up to the first tier — or for a top-tier individual to be excluded.

Unlike Fox News, which hosted the first debate and used the five most recent national polls to determine who made the cut, CNN is using an average of national polls released from July 16 to Sept. 10, conducted by 14 pollsters it identified as meeting its standards.

Of the polls that qualify, nine were conducted before the first debate and only two since then, according to the Fiorina campaign. In both of those postdebate polls, Mrs. Fiorina was at 5 percent, up from 1 percent or 2 percent in polls conducted before the first debate.

A New York Times analysis of polls that fit CNN’s criteria found that if the debate were held today, Mrs. Fiorina would not qualify for the main stage. Not only that, but if she were to maintain the same level of support she received in the two surveys conducted after the first debate, she would need 10 additional qualifying polls to be conducted before the next debate to eclipse Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey, who is the last candidate to be included based on his support in an average of qualifying polls.

The Fiorina campaign is arguing that CNN should give more weight to the polls conducted after the first debate, and it has called on the party to pressure the network to make the change.

Some polling experts say that CNN’s formula is misguided.

“I think they did not have a pollster at the table when they decided this,” said J. Ann Selzer, who conducts one Iowa poll. “I think it’s hard to defend, purely from a math perspective.”

Many Republican strategists lamented the fact that Mrs. Fiorina might not make the main debate, even as they said it would be wrong for CNN to change its selection criteria.

Using “more recent polls makes sense,” said Newt Gingrich, the former House speaker and a 2012 Republican presidential candidate. But, he added, “Rigging it to help or hurt one candidate does not.”

Katie Packer Gage, a partner at Burning Glass, a firm that advises Republicans on tailoring their messages to women, said that while Ms. Fiorina had gained a lot of attention and had “made a real impact” on the debate in the Republican Party, she should not receive any special treatment.

“It is unfortunate, but I don’t think the party or the network can change the rules for any one candidate,” Ms. Packer Gage said. “What about the Hispanic candidates? The African-American candidate? The Indian-American candidate? Should they all have different rules? The rules were made ahead of time, and everyone knows them.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/28/u...column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
 
Wants to change the rules in the middle of the game:

When Carly Fiorina found herself relegated to the so-called undercard stage for the first Republican primary debate this month, she seized the opportunity to stand out. Clad in a bright pink suit — the only woman in a sea of men — she delivered a forceful performance that catapulted her into the national spotlight and generated a bounce in public polls.

But Mrs. Fiorina, the former Hewlett-Packard executive, wants to be on the main stage at the second Republican debate next month. And she is waging a public war with both CNN, which is hosting the debate, and the Republican National Committee, which her campaign accused on Wednesday of “rigging the game” to keep her out of the prime-time event.

CNN, which released its debate criteria in May, is planning to use an average of public polls dating to mid-July to determine which 10 candidates will appear in the main debate.

Because that calculation would include many surveys that were done before the first debate, in which Mrs. Fiorina delivered a strong performance, it would not fully capture her gains in recent polls, some of which show her near the top of the Republican field.

Recognizing that Mrs. Fiorina may be excluded from the prime-time debate, costing her crucial exposure and dampening fund-raising efforts, her campaign has sought to turn the likely snub into a public relations victory, in an effort to win her sympathy and attract support from anti-establishment Republicans.

The dispute with CNN and the Republican National Committee, which awarded the debate to the network, allows Mrs. Fiorina to emphasize her outsider status, in a category with Donald J. Trump and the retired surgeon Ben Carson, both of whom are winning over voters in part because they are not career politicians.

Asked about her battle over the debate criteria at a packed event in Cushing, Iowa, on Wednesday night, Mrs. Fiorina pointedly criticized the network and the party.

“Let’s forget that I’m a woman,” Mrs. Fiorina, who is the only female Republican candidate, said when asked about the debate. “I’m in the top five in every state poll and the top 10 in national polls. So what does that say about CNN and the R.N.C.?”

She continued: “I’m going to keep doing what I’ve been doing, coming out here and talking to voters. As people get to know me, they support me. And you see that in the polls, and you’re going to continue to see that in the polls. I’ll let CNN and the R.N.C. decide how they look if I’m not on that stage.”

Both CNN and the Republican National Committee have said that since the rules for the debate were released months ago, all the candidates knew the ground rules, and it would be improper — and illegal — to change them now.

Mrs. Fiorina’s campaign nevertheless called on the Republican National Committee to push CNN to change its criteria.
“All candidates are aware of the law that the media organizations set the debate criteria, as the candidates asked,” said Sean Spicer, a spokesman for the committee. “CNN released its criteria over four months ago. All candidates were well aware of what it would take to get into the two segments that CNN is hosting.”

Some Republican strategists said that Mrs. Fiorina could emerge a winner even by losing a shot at the top-tier debate.

“Social media will light up in anger if she is consistently polling at 5 percent — consistently in the top 10 — and ends up being denied because of a technicality,” said Frank Luntz, a Republican political consultant and pollster. “Social media is running this election cycle, and it’s a voice that’s outside and powerful.”

On the other hand, Mrs. Fiorina might not have stood out so much in the first debate, in Cleveland, if she were on the stage with the top-polling candidates at an event that was dominated by Donald J. Trump. So there may be an advantage to her to continue to face the candidates trailing the field.

The networks themselves are grappling with how to deal with the large Republican field. Their criteria need to be fair, but can inadvertently end up excluding certain candidates, like Mrs. Fiorina, who could be good for ratings.

“I am sure Priebus would gladly trade Fiorina for Trump,” said John Feehery, a Republican strategist, referring to Reince Priebus, the Republican National Committee chairman. “CNN, of course, wants both because it maximizes the ratings.”

In retrospect, CNN’s criteria for inclusion in its debate seems intended to make it hard for a second-tier candidate to move up to the first tier — or for a top-tier individual to be excluded.

Unlike Fox News, which hosted the first debate and used the five most recent national polls to determine who made the cut, CNN is using an average of national polls released from July 16 to Sept. 10, conducted by 14 pollsters it identified as meeting its standards.

Of the polls that qualify, nine were conducted before the first debate and only two since then, according to the Fiorina campaign. In both of those postdebate polls, Mrs. Fiorina was at 5 percent, up from 1 percent or 2 percent in polls conducted before the first debate.

A New York Times analysis of polls that fit CNN’s criteria found that if the debate were held today, Mrs. Fiorina would not qualify for the main stage. Not only that, but if she were to maintain the same level of support she received in the two surveys conducted after the first debate, she would need 10 additional qualifying polls to be conducted before the next debate to eclipse Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey, who is the last candidate to be included based on his support in an average of qualifying polls.

The Fiorina campaign is arguing that CNN should give more weight to the polls conducted after the first debate, and it has called on the party to pressure the network to make the change.

Some polling experts say that CNN’s formula is misguided.

“I think they did not have a pollster at the table when they decided this,” said J. Ann Selzer, who conducts one Iowa poll. “I think it’s hard to defend, purely from a math perspective.”

Many Republican strategists lamented the fact that Mrs. Fiorina might not make the main debate, even as they said it would be wrong for CNN to change its selection criteria.

Using “more recent polls makes sense,” said Newt Gingrich, the former House speaker and a 2012 Republican presidential candidate. But, he added, “Rigging it to help or hurt one candidate does not.”

Katie Packer Gage, a partner at Burning Glass, a firm that advises Republicans on tailoring their messages to women, said that while Ms. Fiorina had gained a lot of attention and had “made a real impact” on the debate in the Republican Party, she should not receive any special treatment.

“It is unfortunate, but I don’t think the party or the network can change the rules for any one candidate,” Ms. Packer Gage said. “What about the Hispanic candidates? The African-American candidate? The Indian-American candidate? Should they all have different rules? The rules were made ahead of time, and everyone knows them.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/28/u...column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
I believe her complaint has a lot of merit. No poll done before the last debate should be used. They are based on what was and not what is. She is not as you suggest the rules be changed in the middle of the steam rather asking those polls be based on reality
 
I was never a strong student, but if she is in the Top 5 of every state poll, how can she only be in the Top 10 nationally?

As an aside, the lady quoted in the last paragraph makes no sense at all - this has nothing to do with ethnicity or gender. And I don't follow how CNN changing the rules for inclusion at their own debate would be "illegal"?
 
I believe her complaint has a lot of merit. No poll done before the last debate should be used. They are based on what was and not what is. She is not as you suggest the rules be changed in the middle of the steam rather asking those polls be based on reality
Agreed. Things obviously have changed. This whole debate thing has become a mess.
 
One of the things I learned after the last debates is that I am one of the few who actually watched the matinee debate.

I thought Carly did well. Not as great as Fox trumpeted her performance to be, but pretty good. It was basically a "Hi, I'm Carly Fiorina, I'm smart, I'm competent" messager. Over and over. No actual ideas for governance, but that was the message she needed to get across and she did a good job of it.

I strongly agree that placement in the adult debate should depend on polls since the first debate.

I'd like to know who's dropping out of the evening debate to make room for her. And who else from the matinee debate might be moving up?
 
This is Carly's chart from the linked site. It may be based more on her positions in the 2010 Senate race than recent statement.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Carly_Fiorina.htm

s030_070.gif


Some will notice that, shape notwithstanding, this is NOT the same chart we see on some libertarian sites.
 
Interesting. Common sense says she has to be in, but criteria widely published May 20 being changed to help a single candidate seems offensive and unfair. Too bad nobody objected in May when the criteria were released and something could have been done-but in the old whose ox is being gored analysis, none of them knew what change would help whom.

Here is the part of the criteria at issue: (others are kinda odd, at least 1 paid staffer and at least 2 visits in first 4 states are a couple)

6. The first 10 candidates – ranked from highest to lowest in polling order from an average of all qualifying polls released between July 16 and September 10 who satisfy the criteria requirements outlined in this document will be invited to participate in “Segment B” of the September 16, 2015 Republican Presidential Primary Debate. In the event of a tie for 10th place, the tiebreaker will be an average of all qualifying polls released between August 26 and September 10. The second tiebreaker will be an average of all qualifying polling conducted in Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada released between July 16 and September 10. .......
Polling data will only be considered for live interviewer national polls sponsored by the following sources to determine eligibility for the September 16, 2015 Republican Presidential Primary Debate: ABC/The Washington Post, Bloomberg, CBS/The New York Times, CNN, FOX, Gallup, Marist, McClatchy, Monmouth University, NBC/The Wall Street Journal, Pew, Quinnipiac, USA Today, Time.

Note that they use recent polling for first tiebreaker, so they at least considered timing. It may have been considered by RNC/CNN and they decided a rolling average approach was most representative. Perhaps CNN's motive was to minimize importance of FOX debate, that could explain their favoring the rolling average choice.

And where does the math stand, is the cake baked or are there plenty of ingredients left to add? That is, how many polls do each of the ten release and how many polls are remaining to be released? Is that information available? And did RNC/CNN know in May exactly how many would be released and exactly when? Might shed some light on RNC or CNN's motive or thought process.
 
I was never a strong student, but if she is in the Top 5 of every state poll, how can she only be in the Top 10 nationally?

This is actually a huge issue. Fiorina is top 5 in the early contest states of Iowa and NH where candidates had been spending time actually meeting with voters. But the networks are cutting the clout these states had out from under them by using national polls to determine these debates. This trend will make it much harder for little known or under funded candidates to gain traction and essentially nationalize the primary season.
 
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I agree with everyone who says taking polls pre-debate into account is crazy, too much changes too quickly. I hope Rand Paul is one who drops out, he offered nothing to the first debate, and every time he talked all I could see was a feisty leprechaun.

I say give Carly a chance against the leaders and see what she does. She can probably understand the world from Trump's perspective better than anyone, and thus is in the best position to rattle his cage.

Carly vs. Hillary could be very interesting. She takes the female advantage away from Hillary, hasn't irritated women, isn't a career politician, and her name is easier for the Latino's to say than Hillary's (Fio-deena vs. Clean-tone).
 
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I can't believe she's even a candidate. A sales exec who was hired as CEO of one of the leading technology companies in the world. Taking the helm in 99 during the tech boom, she did nothing but cut the stock value in half and tens of thousands of people lost their job. Now I will give her somewhat of a pass because the tech bubble burst why she was CEO, but its pretty popular belief that some of her decisions made a bad situation worse.
 
So . . . when Jeb is caught in a sex orgy with underage Thai ladyboys and tanks in the latest polls, he still gets to be in the main debate?

I wonder if there are any provisions for dumping a tanking candidate (even if he is tanking for less colorful reasons)? You would think so, but who knows?
 
I don't remember Trump attacking Jeb's links to Lehman in the first debate. Or attacking him for approving massive state pension fund investments in Enron as Enron was being blasted in the press.

I hope we get to see that. You know Jeb will be prepared, but it could be a good tussle.
 
I can't believe she's even a candidate. A sales exec who was hired as CEO of one of the leading technology companies in the world. Taking the helm in 99 during the tech boom, she did nothing but cut the stock value in half and tens of thousands of people lost their job. Now I will give her somewhat of a pass because the tech bubble burst why she was CEO, but its pretty popular belief that some of her decisions made a bad situation worse.
If elected, expect more of the same...that is, wars, for the benefit of the Elite. She is closely allied with the CIA and NSA. What I find disturbing about her is her comment if she were elected. Her 1st call would be to Netanyahu. Great! An appeaser to AIPAC and the warvangelicals. I'm sure she would like to see more Americans surveilled by the warfare-welfare state.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/417938/ceo-and-cia-jim-geraghty
 
I can't believe she's even a candidate. A sales exec who was hired as CEO of one of the leading technology companies in the world. Taking the helm in 99 during the tech boom, she did nothing but cut the stock value in half and tens of thousands of people lost their job. Now I will give her somewhat of a pass because the tech bubble burst why she was CEO, but its pretty popular belief that some of her decisions made a bad situation worse.
Her job at HP was not to maintain employment levels, it was to make money for the company’s investors. Stock prices rise and fall. The tech bubble started collapsing in 2000. A great many technology investors saw their stock values drop. A great many more saw their stock values completely evaporate. HP survived. Not only did they survive, they gained position in the market. Fiorina helped HP survive the recession and come out stronger on the other side.
 
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If elected, expect more of the same...that is, wars, for the benefit of the Elite. She is closely allied with the CIA and NSA. What I find disturbing about her is her comment if she were elected. Her 1st call would be to Netanyahu. Great! An appeaser to AIPAC and the warvangelicals. I'm sure she would like to see more Americans surveilled by the warfare-welfare state.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/417938/ceo-and-cia-jim-geraghty
Props for "warvangelicals." I like it! :D
 
Fiorina is in the race to get a cabinet seat, or to position herself for a future Senate run. And, I'll puke the next time I hear her mention that she started out as a secretary in a 13 person real estate firm. It'll be a sympathy puke for all you righties that get bunged up inside when Hillary Clinton mentions her humble beginnings.
 
Her job at HP was not to maintain employment levels, it was to make money for the company’s investors. Stock prices rise and fall. The tech bubble started collapsing in 2000. A great many technology investors saw their stock values drop. A great many more saw their stock values completely evaporate. HP survived. Not only did they survive, they gained position in the market. Fiorina helped HP survive the recession and come out stronger on the other side.

That's your opinion. Unfortunately for Fiorina the board members didn't see it the way you did. Look up her purchasing of Compaq to see just how well she made money for investors. And while you're looking that up, how she was giving herself big bonuses while HP laid people off. She was on the speaking trail while the company was in a tailspin (I can think of a certain President who has taken a beating for that).
 
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I think her stance is correct. It's not like preseason polls are used to help select bowl teams at the end of the year. Current trends should be the deciding factor.
 
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Some here are saying "dem's da rules" and it would be unfair to change the rules a this point.

Others are saying "yeah, but they're dumb rules" that do a disservice to the voters and the legit contenders.

Is anybody arguing that the rules actually make sense - that it makes sense to dilute or underweight the most recent poll results?
 
So . . . when Jeb is caught in a sex orgy with underage Thai ladyboys and tanks in the latest polls, he still gets to be in the main debate?

I wonder if there are any provisions for dumping a tanking candidate (even if he is tanking for less colorful reasons)? You would think so, but who knows?


I would LOVE to see this happen. Can't stand that guy.
 
This is nuts. Why even have the first debate?

I'm not a fan of Carly and can't imagine giving her my vote but without that stage there is no chance.

And this goes so far beyond her. It's the reason none of these candidates are willing to be interesting. If they drop in the polls they're kicked to the side - it makes more sense to just hang on and wait for others to screw up (which they will because they're idiots)
 
Her job at HP was not to maintain employment levels, it was to make money for the company’s investors. Stock prices rise and fall. The tech bubble started collapsing in 2000. A great many technology investors saw their stock values drop. A great many more saw their stock values completely evaporate. HP survived. Not only did they survive, they gained position in the market. Fiorina helped HP survive the recession and come out stronger on the other side.

HP was not a victim of the tech bubble, at least not any more than the rest of the market. Fiorina just did a poor job of managing the company and pretty much ran it off the rails via the Compaq acquisition. Sure they survived, but it wasn't as a result of the savvy decisions she made during her tenure. She was pretty much a disaster, and that is a widely acknowledged fact among anyone who followed the tech industry at the time.

None of that means she would or would not make a fine leader of the Free World, but the whole "she/he has done well in business so they would do well in the business of running this country" narrative just doesn't apply to her - nor does it to Mr. Trump.
 
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