Cassar and Conel Done.

[MitchLL]

<<Can not sleep on Nevills he is good, I say he is a top 10 guy. Brooks is a serious upgrade for them. Rasheed Could be an high AA if he is at the top of his game , but at 197 maybe as low as r12 if he is not.>>

I dont see it with Nevills-- I think top ten is a huge strectch-- Cass beat him 13-0 in Free-- He might be top 10-20range-- but i would be suprised if he ends up top 10.

Yep... there's a reason PSU went after Kerk.

 

[pish69]

In a attempt to simply be cordial, what win can you name in Rasheed's entire career that screams, hell even hints, at his being a Finalist?

You can only beat who's across from you. You can't help scheduling and injuries. but you can see talent regardless.

I'll pose this back to you..would you bet against a healthy Rasheed in any matchup at 197 besides Moore?

Granted..if Rasheed not the same healthy Rasheed, this is all for naught..

 

[MSU158]

You can only beat who's across from you. You can't help scheduling and injuries. but you can see talent regardless.

I'll pose this back to you..would you bet against a healthy Rasheed in any matchup at 197 besides Moore?

Granted..if Rasheed not the same healthy Rasheed, this is all for naught..

On an individual match basis, I would probably not bet against Rasheed. But, I definitely would NOT bet on him either.

In fact, the better question for you is, would you take Rasheed against the field(excepting Moore)? I wouldn't. In fact, that IS a bet I would make.

My argument has never been that Rasheed COULDN'T beat everyone but Moore. It is that we don't have the data to say he SHOULD and WOULD. That is they key difference between your stance and mine.

 

[pish69]

Let me see how he looks this month and I'll get back to you on that bet..

 

[ss7]

You do realize that seeding ignores prior years for a reason, right? Guys get better, get worse, get injured, suffer from HEW, broke up with their girlfriend, have trouble academically, get older, mature and a whole bunch of other things.

Still, to try to be basic as possible. Michael Macchiavello was 11-14 and 8-8 in his 1st 2 seasons. In what right mind would you consider a win over those versions remotely the same as a win over him as a senior.

Finally, I NEVER said Rasheed sucks. I even clarified that I think he is good and later said I fully expect him to AA. I simply said he has not had ONE win that clearly calls him a title contender or even top 4 for that matter.

In a attempt to simply be cordial, what win can you name in Rasheed's entire career that screams, hell even hints, at his being a Finalist?

So, even though he has beaten 2 of the top 4 guys at the weight he's wrestling this year, he doesn't have a win that would indicate he's top 4 at the weight because the wins he against the top 4 guys at the weight don't count.

Do I have that about right?

 

[wasdt21]

why do you guys care what iowa fans think about shak?pretty lame

 

[MSU158]

So, even though he has beaten 2 of the top 4 guys at the weight he's wrestling this year, he doesn't have a win that would indicate he's top 4 at the weight because the wins he against the top 4 guys at the weight don't count.

Do I have that about right?

Context be damned???? Did you NOT read anything I typed, or selectively choose to ignore how I already answered this?

#2 Christian Brunner lost to Rasheed 2 years ago. He was 24-11 that season as a True Sophomore coming off a 24-17 freshman season. Are we saying that version of Christian Brunner is not considerably better as a Senior?

#4 Noah Adams was a redshirting freshman who went 19-15 his first season that counted. Are we saying he hasn't improved considerably, either?

Come on man. Do NOT be willfully obtuse........

 

[ss7]

Context be damned???? Did you NOT read anything I typed, or selectively choose to ignore how I already answered this?

#2 Christian Brunner lost to Rasheed 2 years ago. He was 24-11 that season as a True Sophomore coming off a 24-17 freshman season. Are we saying that version of Christian Brunner is not considerably better as a Senior?

#4 Noah Adams was a redshirting freshman who went 19-15 his first season that counted. Are we saying he hasn't improved considerably, either?

Come on man. Do NOT be willfully obtuse........

I'm not even sure what specifically you're looking for, but it doesn't seem to exist. Shak has wins, but they don't count.

As to Adams and Brunner, I don't know if they've improved considerably. Or at least so much that it would invalidate results from 2 seasons ago. Looking at their results from this season, I wouldn't say that have a lot of earth-shattering wins either.

Shak has been to the B1G finals two years in a row. He has wins against 2 of the current top 5 at 184 and 197.

The finals at 197 will feature two wrestlers. I think we all agree that, more than likely one of them will be Kollin Moore. The other one could be any of a handful of guys, and I'd say Shak's results (when healthy) indicate he has better shot than most of them. I think this can be viewed as a statement on the lack of depth at the weight as much as anything related to the greatness of Shak's past results.

 

[Aleric1]

Shakur has beaten current highly ranked wrestlers in the past. I think the biggest question I have is with the injuries he has endured, has he advanced the same as them. If he has and is healthy, he’s going to be pretty good.

 

[SPOONER]

Shakur has beaten current highly ranked wrestlers in the past. I think the biggest question I have is with the injuries he has endured, has he advanced the same as them. If he has and is healthy, he’s going to be pretty good.

And the fact that most have been at 197 for some time and he's just decided to go there recently. His results vs. them were at 184.

 

[MSU158]

I'm not even sure what specifically you're looking for, but it doesn't seem to exist. Shak has wins, but they don't count.

As to Adams and Brunner, I don't know if they've improved considerably. Or at least so much that it would invalidate results from 2 seasons ago. Looking at their results from this season, I wouldn't say that have a lot of earth-shattering wins either.

Shak has been to the B1G finals two years in a row. He has wins against 2 of the current top 5 at 184 and 197.

The finals at 197 will feature two wrestlers. I think we all agree that, more than likely one of them will be Kollin Moore. The other one could be any of a handful of guys, and I'd say Shak's results (when healthy) indicate he has better shot than most of them. I think this can be viewed as a statement on the lack of depth at the weight as much as anything related to the greatness of Shak's past results.

So guys just magically go from 12-13 to 15-1 without improvement? A win over that 12-13 guy from 2 years ago means it is likely you would beat the 15-1 guy? How about beating a true freshman early in that season? He then goes from 19-15 to 21-0. Anyone with a brain wouldn't consider that later version nothing like the earlier one?

You do realize that Cyler Sanderson beat David Taylor something like 15-1 when Taylor was a TF. Would you then say that win holds similar value 2 years later?

Finally, they were NOT ranked that high when they lost FOR A REASON. They were losing A LOT to mediocre guys. This is DI wrestling. Weight classes DO NOT thin out to the degree that a .500 wrestler all of a sudden is top 5 without CONSIDERABLE improvement.........................

 

[ss7]

So guys just magically go from 12-13 to 15-1 without improvement? A win over that 12-13 guy from 2 years ago means it is likely you would beat the 15-1 guy? How about beating a true freshman early in that season? He then goes from 19-15 to 21-0. Anyone with a brain wouldn't consider that later version nothing like the earlier one?

You do realize that Cyler Sanderson beat David Taylor something like 15-1 when Taylor was a TF. Would you then say that win holds similar value 2 years later?

Finally, they were NOT ranked that high when they lost FOR A REASON. They were losing A LOT to mediocre guys. This is DI wrestling. Weight classes DO NOT thin out to the degree that a .500 wrestler all of a sudden is top 5 without CONSIDERABLE improvement.........................

If I'm being honest, I don't even know what we're discussing/arguing about anymore.

If you think Shak hasn't yet shown the ability (or even a hint of it) to beat the guys that he will need to beat to be wrestling on Saturday night, we're going to agree to disagree.

 

[JBJRFL]

He beat 6 guys currently ranked in top 20 just last year, I'm not going back 4 yrs. The dudes been hurt, if everyone here wants to dismiss that fact of why he may not have even better wins, I can't win that argument since he hasn't done it when it counts. It's up to him to do it. And that's the same with the Bull..it's obvious how talented he is, but to date has a 6th and 7th place finish.

Personally I think the Bull is top 2, I thought that last year as well. I'm not going to sit here and try to diminish the kids talent like some are trying to do with Rasheed.

People need to stop relying on BS and just open their eyes and watch matches instead of box scores.

A healthy Rasheed is awesome. A champion? Maybe not, but I'm not going to bet against the kid.

Bull--awesome, he's had two rough NCAA's but that doesn't change what my eye's see.

If people can take away the BS and really see what they're watching these boards would be a little more respectful instead of pissing matches

With all due respect, it appears that all of these are "pishing" matches.

 

[MSU158]

If I'm being honest, I don't even know what we're discussing/arguing about anymore.

If you think Shak hasn't yet shown the ability (or even a hint of it) to beat the guys that he will need to beat to be wrestling on Saturday night, we're going to agree to disagree.

Again, I am not sure you are fully reading, or comprehending, what I have written in this thread. I have clearly said that Rasheed is capable of beating anyone but Moore. However, capable=could, which is a LOT different than would or should.

To be as clear as I can, while even repeating myself, I believe Shak is a likely AA. However, he has yet to CLEARLY show that he is a likely finalist or top 4 for that matter.

 

[pish69]

I’ve never understood the Rasheed hype. What are his best wins? Venz last year and Miklus a few years ago?

why do you guys care what iowa fans think about shak?pretty lame

We don't care. He asked, I answered. Apparently my answer gave some controversy to some since Shakur hasn't wrestled yet this year and people took offense to past results

 

[pablow]

So guys just magically go from 12-13 to 15-1 without improvement? A win over that 12-13 guy from 2 years ago means it is likely you would beat the 15-1 guy? How about beating a true freshman early in that season? He then goes from 19-15 to 21-0. Anyone with a brain wouldn't consider that later version nothing like the earlier one?

You do realize that Cyler Sanderson beat David Taylor something like 15-1 when Taylor was a TF. Would you then say that win holds similar value 2 years later?

Finally, they were NOT ranked that high when they lost FOR A REASON. They were losing A LOT to mediocre guys. This is DI wrestling. Weight classes DO NOT thin out to the degree that a .500 wrestler all of a sudden is top 5 without CONSIDERABLE improvement.........................

The score was 9-7.

 

[MVPFAN]

Lol. I don’t think I ever mentioned a thing regarding the Bull. And another LOL at “when he beat them”. Like that matters what a guys ranked when he beats them. If someone beats Aaron Brooks right now, does it matter that he’s only ranked 25th?

the poster asked what good wins did Rasheed had. I gave him 8 off top of my head. You can do some more research if you wish

You are an idiot if you think beating a guy two years ago was ranked 20th equates to beating the #2 guy if that is what he is ranked now. If you can't see that you have issues.

 

[pish69]

You are an idiot if you think beating a guy two years ago was ranked 20th equates to beating the #2 guy if that is what he is ranked now. If you can't see that you have issues.

It was last year. Since Shakur hasn't wrestled this year, which result would you like me to post?

 

[MSU158]

The score was 9-7.

It appears we were both wrong, but in my defense I was guessing at the score, but remembered it was quite dominant in favor of Sanderson, which it still was:

157: 2008 All-American Cyler Sanderson (Heber City, Utah), ranked No. 5 at 157, met true freshman David Taylor (St. Paris, Ohio). Sanderson made his first seconds on a Rec Hall mat count with a sizzling four point move (takedown and two near fall points) right out of the gates against Taylor. Sanderson added a second takedown and two more near fall points to up his lead to 8-1 with 1:21 left in the period. A third takedown with :40 left gave Cyler a 10-3 lead after a Taylor escape. Leading 10-3, Sanderson chose down to start the second period. Taylor was able to ride Sanderson for nearly a minute before the All-American was able to escape to an 11-3 lead. Trailing 11-3 and needing back points, Taylor chose top to start the third period and nearly turned the senior for back points right off the opening whistle. But Sanderson was able to fight back to parallel and keep his eight-point lead. Taylor put together a very strong ride, maintaining control of Sanderson while trying to lock in on a cradle. But Sanderson was able to fight off every Taylor scoring effort and wind out the period. The strong ride out allowed Taylor to work up a 1:41 riding time edge and keep the bout to a regular decision. Still, Sanderson's sizzling start allowed the All-American to walk away with an 11-4 decision.

Edited to add: You were talking about the 2nd time they wrestled, in which Sanderson still won, but only furthered my overall point. Guys tend to improve during the course of their TF season and especially 2 years later.

 

[pablow]

It appears we were both wrong, but in my defense I was guessing at the score, but remembered it was quite dominant in favor of Sanderson, which it still was:

157: 2008 All-American Cyler Sanderson (Heber City, Utah), ranked No. 5 at 157, met true freshman David Taylor (St. Paris, Ohio). Sanderson made his first seconds on a Rec Hall mat count with a sizzling four point move (takedown and two near fall points) right out of the gates against Taylor. Sanderson added a second takedown and two more near fall points to up his lead to 8-1 with 1:21 left in the period. A third takedown with :40 left gave Cyler a 10-3 lead after a Taylor escape. Leading 10-3, Sanderson chose down to start the second period. Taylor was able to ride Sanderson for nearly a minute before the All-American was able to escape to an 11-3 lead. Trailing 11-3 and needing back points, Taylor chose top to start the third period and nearly turned the senior for back points right off the opening whistle. But Sanderson was able to fight back to parallel and keep his eight-point lead. Taylor put together a very strong ride, maintaining control of Sanderson while trying to lock in on a cradle. But Sanderson was able to fight off every Taylor scoring effort and wind out the period. The strong ride out allowed Taylor to work up a 1:41 riding time edge and keep the bout to a regular decision. Still, Sanderson's sizzling start allowed the All-American to walk away with an 11-4 decision.

Edited to add: You were talking about the 2nd time they wrestled, in which Sanderson still won, but only furthered my overall point. Guys tend to improve during the course of their TF season and especially 2 years later.

No. You posted Sanderson beat DT 15-1 when DT was a true freshman (2009-2010). That is incorrect. That score was 9-7.

 

[rcamp67]

On an individual match basis, I would probably not bet against Rasheed. But, I definitely would NOT bet on him either.

In fact, the better question for you is, would you take Rasheed against the field(excepting Moore)? I wouldn't. In fact, that IS a bet I would make.

My argument has never been that Rasheed COULDN'T beat everyone but Moore. It is that we don't have the data to say he SHOULD and WOULD. That is they key difference between your stance and mine.

Don’t use data and actual results. Use your eyes

 

[TarpHawk]

This is fun but starting to get old.

 

[MVPFAN]

It was last year. Since Shakur hasn't wrestled this year, which result would you like me to post?

I'm not referencing a specific match, I'm telling you the concept of beating a wrestler in the past who was mediocre at the time and not ranked especially high does not equate to future results. I'm not saying he is not capable of beating them in current time, just that the past result does not equal a current one. If he had beaten Brunner last month it holds a lot more water that if he beat him 2 years ago. I had a HS kid who lost 3 times to another kid at 103 one year, the kid who beat him won state. The next year at 112 my guy beat the other kid 3x and ended up winning state. My guy got a lot better in that year. For all I know Rasheed might win 197 but a win over a current top 5 guy in a previous season when he was ranked 20 is not very meaningful data to predict from.

 

[MSU158]

No. You posted Sanderson beat DT 15-1 when DT was a true freshman (2009-2010). That is incorrect. That score was 9-7.

Actually, I said "something like" 15-1. I then literally found and posted match notes to the actual PSU wrestleoffs where the score was actually 11-4. Is that not factually correct? Was that NOT when DT was a true freshman?

 

[MSU158]

This is fun but starting to get old.

I will cede full control to you then. Once/if you order the cease and decist, I will fully comply, even if it means leaving the last word to a PSU poster who's post will most likely be factually incorrect!

 

[pablow]

Actually, I said "something like" 15-1. I then literally found and posted match notes to the actual PSU wrestleoffs where the score was actually 11-4. Is that not factually correct? Was that NOT when DT was a true freshman?

Wrestle-off match - I give up.

 

[js8793]

I beat Brayton Lee at a club practice 8 years ago when he was still in junior high. This is clear evidence that I am a title contender at 149 this year. Just have to make the weight now.

 

[MSU158]

Wrestle-off match - I give up.

They are on the same team, I would think you would understand the likelihood of the match being a wrestle-off. Also, its not like it was held in the wrestling room and reffed by the coaches. It was held in Rec Hall with DI reffing.

Either way it happened when Taylor was redshirting so ANY of the losses don't count. But, it was still a match that I wouldn't say Taylor didn't care if he lost.......

 

[Inspiteofourselves]

Anyone want to bet $100 that Rasheed does not place top 6 this year at nationals?

 

[hoythawk]

Do you realize how FULLY DENSE that response was? In several cases, you don't think 2 years matters? They are ranked at that spot for a reason AT THAT TIME. We aren't talking about blue chip recruits that don't have enough matches in to be properly ranked.

Let's try to educate the uneducatable:

1.)Hunter Bolen was redshirting after going a whopping 12-13 and 0-2 at NCAA's the year before. That win means next to nothing WHEN IT HAPPENED. Ask Cael if a loss while redshirting counts......

2.)Going all the way back to 2018 Holschlag went a whopping 23-12 the year Rasheed beat him. He came into that match with losses to Jeric Kasunic of American(1-2 at NCAA's that season with a win over Dustin Conti Do you know who Conti is without looking him up?), Nathan Traxler(19-12 that season, going 2-2 at NCAA's and losing to Wilcke to get eliminated) and Scottie Boykin(0-2 at NCAA's that season). This is probably his best career win. Not that impressive once you look at the facts WHEN IT HAPPENED.

3.)Wilcke has been a perennial top 12ish type guy. Is that really an "elite" win?

4.)Colbray just lost to a seriously undersized Brands. But, to stick with the WHEN IT HAPPENED theme, Colbray had just lost to Danny Bush(can you tell me what school he wrestled for without looking it up?) at the Lindenwood Open.

5.)Brunner Back in 2018, he beat Brunner(24-11 going 1-2 at NCAA's beating a 21-15 Tanner Orndorff). He wasn't exactly a world beat WHEN IT HAPPENED.

6.)Norfleet was apparently injured in the match they wrestled in December and didn't wrestle the rest of the season. He was 12-13 the season before. Not exactly an "elite" win WHEN IT HAPPENED.

7.) Adams He beat Noah Adams when he was a redshirting freshman. Need we ask Cael about that type of a loss again? He would go a whopping 19-15 the next season, his 1st season that counted. Not exactly an "elite" win WHEN IT HAPPENED.

8.)Venz(whom you did not list but I assume you used to make your 8 number, even though you only listed 7) A 6-5 win over Venz at B1G's can be argued as his one "elite" win. However Venz would only get the 9 seed and did not even AA that season losing in the R12. Is that really an "elite" win WHEN IT HAPPENED?

EDITED TO ADD: 9.)Miklus should be considered his 1 "elite" win. Now, I think Miklus may have had a trend in "checking out" at the end of his last 3 NCAA's as he lost his placement match each time. But, it should still be considered an elite win.

Simply put, none of the wrestlers listed are currently at the level they were then. On top of that, Rasheed was not at his best when he last wrestled and hasn't wrestled this season. You can't count wins of up to 2 years ago, considering those wrestlers at their highest current rank, while considering Rasheed at his highest capabilities now. Is it not possible he isn't as good now as he was then?

This will go up as some of the best ownage of the year.
The reason pish and co. can't follow what you say is because most of their guys come into the program dominating. They don't understand that most programs have to develop their guys to compete. The fact a guy can be bad as a freshman and tough as a senior is hard to understand for fans who are used to watching blue chippers at each weight.

 

[hoythawk]

The lack of iq shown by pish and ss has me wondering where PSU fans would be ranked for wrestling IQ.
Iowa fans are number 1 by a wide margin. I would put Michigan State fans around 30. Judging by this thread, PSU fans would slot in about 80th with hopes of passing Slippery Rock in another 10 years.

 

[PD4thespawn]

psu will win at 141, 165, 174, 185 and 197 at this years national tournament.

 

[wasdt21]

just proved hoyt's last post

 

[hoythawk]

psu will win at 141, 165, 174, 185 and 197 at this years national tournament.

Is the Easter Bunny coming out of gray shirt for the new 185 class?

 

[Nashville_Hawkeye]

So, the Mark Hall that Alex Meyer beat is the same guy as today?

LOL! That's one of the best examples I've seen!! Well done!

 

[Nashville_Hawkeye]

This is fun but starting to get old.

Yep! I'm ready to see how everyone looks this weekend.

 

[pumpdog20]

psu will win at at this years national tournament.

FIFY

 

[fufighters]

Shak may be good and he may not..the truth is we dont know..3 months ago Connel was the 2nd coming and now ehhh. Shak has demonstrated in the past he can beat guys but that doesn't mean after major knee surgery he will , especially going up a weight and maybe wrestling with a large brace similar to Marinelli.
His body may be cleared but is his mind ready? Knowing with each match one wrong twist of a surgically repaired knee and it could end his career forever and that every guy he wrestles is going to go after that leg.

 

[chuck285]

psu will win at 141, 165, 174, 185 and 197 at this years national tournament.

You must be trolling for comments...If not let's meet somewhere and bet $500 on this. I don't have lots of money but I'd love to take advantage of an idiot

 

[24 so far]

I will cede full control to you then. Once/if you order the cease and decist, I will fully comply, even if it means leaving the last word to a PSU poster who's post will most likely be factually incorrect!

The best part of this thread for me is, I have no idea who these PSU "posters" are you are responding to, and haven't seen a one of their comments. I call that winning.