Changed My Mind on Lee’s Red Shirt

[el dub]

I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but after today’s action, I think Lee should stay on the shelf this season.

His knee clearly needs time to heal. Did you see the size of that brace?

And he didn’t get out from the bottom position all day.

Come to think of it, his opportunity to go unscored upon for his college career was spoiled in Cedar Falls as well.

 

[Dagboi]

Yah, I guess I’m a Debbie Downer too, because I don’t think he can even last a full match. Has he ever even gotten to a 2nd period? I heard his gas tank runs completely dry half way through the 2nd. Better to leave him on the shelf for maybe two more years, then, so he can save up some gas in all that time not winning matches for the Hawks. He clearly isn’t ready to wrestle a full collegiate match. I’ll believe it when if I see it happen, and not a second earlier. I’m certainly not going to trust years of evidence, results, and first-hand testimony from some of the best minds in wrestling.

 

[LumbeeIndian]

And if the shirt is pulled and Lee comes up short at nationals, every single one of you will be pissed. Brands will become the whipping boy for Iowa missing out on having a 4 time undeafeated National Champion.... the only ones staying quiet will be those that have posted here in support of pulling the shirt. They’ll want to bitch but know they can’t...

That being said, put me in the camp that really really really wants him to go this year. Oh, and I’d like to see Warner go as well...

 

[Herkylian]

Keep it on him unless he decides himself, this is a year for individual accomplishments. Team race isn't in reach and we need firepower up and down the line, next year with Warner takes us closer but we need a fairly balanced lineup to get back on top.

 

[rossel 33]

I think Iowa could do pretty well if Lee and Warner have RS's pulled and Downey makes the team at 184. But even with that, and assuming everyone else stays healthy (e.g. Stoll), Iowa's chances at winning it all are still pretty slim.

This year - likely points in ncaa:

125 none
133 none
141 none
149 2nd or 3rd
157 2nd
165 4th or 5th
174 R 12
184 mid to high AA (with Downey) or none
197 R12
hwt 4th or 5th

I don't think this puts us anywhere near what PSU or tOSU will be scoring.

2018-19 Iowa could see

125 champ/ high AA
133 ?
141 Murin R12
149 Lugo high AA
157 Kemerer champ/high AA
165 Marinelli 3rd
174 Young? R12
184 ?
197 Warner champ/high AA
Hwt Stoll champ/high AA

So, my bias is to favor keeping the RS's on, but of course, I'd trust the judgement of Coach Brands and Spencer, along with the medical advice regarding how the knee is doing following his first competitive matches.

 

[Notsure75]

And if the shirt is pulled and Lee comes up short at nationals, every single one of you will be pissed. Brands will become the whipping boy for Iowa missing out on having a 4 time undeafeated National Champion.... the only ones staying quiet will be those that have posted here in support of pulling the shirt. They’ll want to bitch but know they can’t...

That being said, put me in the camp that really really really wants him to go this year. Oh, and I’d like to see Warner go as well...

After yesterday, Warner is on the HR shit list. He failed. He didn't live up to the know it alls expectations. He's to small, not strong enough, not much of a gas tank. You know, the normal excuses from the know it alls.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

After yesterday, Warner is on the HR shit list. He failed. He didn't live up to the know it alls expectations. He's to small, not strong enough, not much of a gas tank. You know, the normal excuses from the know it alls.

Stfu. One bad match as a freshman. Doesn't take away from his potential and who he's already beat this season. I have no doubt he could AA if not win nationals this season.

It's probably in his best interest to redshirt this year, but in the teams best interest for him to go.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

Keep it on him unless he decides himself, this is a year for individual accomplishments. Team race isn't in reach and we need firepower up and down the line, next year with Warner takes us closer but we need a fairly balanced lineup to get back on top.

Team race absolutely is in reach with Lee, PD3, and Marinelli in the lineup.

PSU and OSU are still the favorites but both already are dealing with significant injuries to former champs.

 

[hawkaholic1996]

I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but after today’s action, I think Lee should stay on the shelf this season.

His knee clearly needs time to heal. Did you see the size of that brace?

And he didn’t get out from the bottom position all day.

Come to think of it, his opportunity to go unscored upon for his college career was spoiled in Cedar Falls as well.

He looked pretty Dominating to me. Didn't realize he was ever on bottom.Did i miss a match??

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

For all those saying keep shirts and wait til next year - this year's team is better than next year's.

PSU only loses retherford and gains a bunch of studs.

The only guys we gain who aren't currently in the room are Cassioppi and Brands. No way either go as true freshman. We lose Sorensen and PD3.

Depending on how things are looking after Midlands in terms of performance, health, and the individual wrestlers preferences, there is a good reason to pull shirts and make a run this year.

How many years now have we been saying wait til next year? No one is slowing down in recruiting. Iowa got out recruited this year. (largely due to Teasdale backing out and effectively costing us 2 recruits - himself and Renteria as well swinging the recruiting back into PSUs favor).

I just don't get the insistence in every single thread that we need to hold shirts and wait til next year. Brands hasn't said that. The wrestlers haven't said that. In fact quite the contrary. They've hinted at going this year.

 

[Flying_Tiger]

It's not about next year, it's about 4 years from now when there is a distinct possibility PSU and tOSU will not be as strong as they are this year (especially tOSU) and then you will still have Lee and Warner in the lineup. Aside from that, there are no moves that can be made this season that will result in a championship without major injuries to both favorites plus Iowa needs to stay healthy and have an exceptional NCAA. What are the odds all those things happening? You simply aren't being realistic.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

It's not about next year, it's about 4 years from now when there is a distinct possibility PSU and tOSU will not be as strong as they are this year (especially tOSU) and then you will still have Lee and Warner in the lineup. Aside from that, there are no moves that can be made this season that will result in a championship without major injuries to both favorites plus Iowa needs to stay healthy and have an exceptional NCAA. What are the odds all those things happening? You simply aren't being realistic.

Lmfao so now it's wait for 4 years from now. Give me a break.

And Iowa can win it this year even without injuries to PSU or OSU. Some of you are oblivious to how odds work. The favorite doesn't win everytime in sports. I assume you've all been watching sports long enough to see plenty of upsets. All it takes is a few upsets to turn the NCAA tournament on it's head.

Iowa is right there this year if they throw the best guys out there. I trust the coaching staff to make the decision.

Iowa could realistically have 5 finalists this season with 3 of them being expected to make the finala, yet they're being written off. Just does not make sense.

I think it's much more likely that PSU does not repeat with 5 champs than it is that they do repeat yet for some reason people are making PSUs projections based on the assumption that all 5 will repeat.

You say I'm not realistic? I didn't say Iowa is the likely winner this year. Just that they have a realistic shot. On the other hand people absolutely writing them off are the ones not being realistic and must not have been watching sports for very long.

 

[DonHawkeye]

Lee is a no brainer to wrestle this year. All things sound like he wants to go and we have a huge hole at 125 and he is instantly a title threat. Warner is not so cut and dry, even if we are pulling all the stops. Wilcke has made huge leaps from last year. He is one of the most athletic guys on the team. He can place very high. And Warner is the classic case of a super talented guy that could use a year in the room to tighten things up and next year be a title threat as a freshman. If Downey doesn't get in and we want to make a run this yes Warner at 197 and Wilkce at 184 makes sense, if that is even possible. If not he is redshirting and I am not even sure there is any talk of him not by anyone that matters.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

Wtf is up with this forum. A week ago everyone insisted Lee should redshirt bc of injury or too small. Then he completes at UNI open dominating a bunch of unranked guys (still very impressive performance) and everyone has suddenly changed their mind and is saying he should go this year.

Conversely, Warner starts the year fantastic and dominates the NUMBER 2 RANKED GUY Miklus (Who also just beat a top ranked guy), Warner has one bad match at UNI losing a very close match to a very good wrestler who he has already beat twice and people are saying Warner absolutely should redshirt.

Remember Hall last season? Numerous guys in NCAA history have taken bad losses early in the season and then still finished strong.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

Also the talk that Warner isn't an upgrade over Wilcke?!!? I love Wilcke and think he can AA this season.

However, Warner won the head to head and I don't see Wilcke beating Miklus let alone dominating him. Warner is absolutely an upgrade.

 

[Nashville_Hawkeye]

Stfu. One bad match as a freshman. Doesn't take away from his potential and who he's already beat this season. I have no doubt he could AA if not win nationals this season.

It's probably in his best interest to redshirt this year, but in the teams best interest for him to go.

I concur with the STFU comments...spot on!!

 

[Nashville_Hawkeye]

Also the talk that Warner isn't an upgrade over Wilcke?!!? I love Wilcke and think he can AA this season.

However, Warner won the head to head and I don't see Wilcke beating Miklus let alone dominating him. Warner is absolutely an upgrade.

I'm with you...absolutely no doubt about Warner being a significant upgrade. As for Wilcke, I will not be sold on him until he faces a couple quality competitors that he doesn't see in the wrestling room every day. Looked better against Rutgers than he did against Illinois, but still didn't look that impressive. And though I like the kid, I have him closer to 20-25 in the rankings vice the 10-11 most of the sites have him. I hope I'm wrong!!!

 

[Nashville_Hawkeye]

It's not about next year, it's about 4 years from now when there is a distinct possibility PSU and tOSU will not be as strong as they are this year (especially tOSU) and then you will still have Lee and Warner in the lineup. Aside from that, there are no moves that can be made this season that will result in a championship without major injuries to both favorites plus Iowa needs to stay healthy and have an exceptional NCAA. What are the odds all those things happening? You simply aren't being realistic.

You're kidding, right? Look at Flo's recruiting information...based on those rankings and the studs that are going to schools not named Iowa (PSU has 5 in the top 22 for 2018; we have 2 in the top 80), in four years, we'll still be in trouble, unless we do some serious recruiting in 19 and 20. That said, I want us to put our best team on the mat, if all the fellas are physically ready to go. I don't want Warner or Lee to wrestle if they're not physically ready, but if they're not injured, I say let's get them in there if it looks like they have the goods at the Midlands. Someone in this discussion (don't think it was you) mentioned Lee's knee brace, but I actually thought he looked more comfortable in his than Marinelli did. Neither of them look 100% to me, but neither did Cory Clark last year when he won it all...

 

[Nashville_Hawkeye]

I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but after today’s action, I think Lee should stay on the shelf this season.

His knee clearly needs time to heal. Did you see the size of that brace?

And he didn’t get out from the bottom position all day.

Come to think of it, his opportunity to go unscored upon for his college career was spoiled in Cedar Falls as well.

I think he looked as comfortable as Marinellli did against Richie Lewis...and they both seemed to have the same big ass knee brace on. I was impressed at how well Marinelli was handling a top 10 opponent with that contraption on his leg. And how about Cory Clark last year...he didn't look all that comfortable in any of the matches he won en route to becoming the champ. If the coaches and the individual wrestlers say they're physically ready, then I'm going to take their word for it.

 

[MVPFAN]

Team race absolutely is in reach with Lee, PD3, and Marinelli in the lineup.

PSU and OSU are still the favorites but both already are dealing with significant injuries to former champs.

Tomasello is fine and they said Joseph out because they don't need to use him, they said he could go if he he had too. I agree with the points Rossell listed and I'm not sure pulling shirts will do it. It would take absolute best case scenario from everyone and that rarely happens.

 

[Novakht]

1. He is like a caged lion.. if he is ready to go and wants to go...it tough to say no.He thrives on competition.

2. I see a lot of comments about what can happen in 4 yrs... If he wrestles this year, the redshirt isn't wasted..just delayed. Lee has also earned an Olympic redshirt should he choose to use it.

3. Someone mentioned he hadn't wrestled from bottom..if you go to a practice you will see that he is very,very tough to ride.

4. The knee brace.. even if he redshirts he would likely wear it next yr.He wrestles every day with it..he is used to it.

I'm not sure what will be decided, but if he runs through Midlands, going to be hard to keep him out of lineup.

I can support either decision! Fun discussion

 

[AFHawk86]

Warm the Warner, but Free the Lee!

 

[Chuck C]

I'm with you...absolutely no doubt about Warner being a significant upgrade. As for Wilcke, I will not be sold on him until he faces a couple quality competitors that he doesn't see in the wrestling room every day. Looked better against Rutgers than he did against Illinois, but still didn't look that impressive. And though I like the kid, I have him closer to 20-25 in the rankings vice the 10-11 most of the sites have him. I hope I'm wrong!!!

You have Wilke ranked closer to the 20-25 range? You realize he made it to the RD of 12 last year as a freshman, effectively up a weight. One win away from being an AA.

 

[texhawkeye]

Spencer Lee (and his family) were smart enough to attend Iowa, and they'll make a smart decision on the redshirt (w/ TNT's guidance), also.

 

[texas twister]

I hope both RS. Want to get the max out of these guys unlike Ferentz pulling Stanley's shirt to throw just one meaningful pass.

 

[hawkssox1]

And if the shirt is pulled and Lee comes up short at nationals, every single one of you will be pissed. Brands will become the whipping boy for Iowa missing out on having a 4 time undeafeated National Champion.... the only ones staying quiet will be those that have posted here in support of pulling the shirt. They’ll want to bitch but know they can’t...

That being said, put me in the camp that really really really wants him to go this year. Oh, and I’d like to see Warner go as well...

Warner is definitely not ready if you watched yesterday you would know that and Lee need's more time to heal his knee its not about what you want its what's best for the wrestlers.

 

[lookleft goright]

I thought the reason you redshirt a guy is because he isn't ready to compete at the D1 level. If Lee is ready and able to compete for high honors, then their is no reason to redshirt him. Saving him for the future may seem like a good idea, but who knows what the future will hold? It is like the song, "if you want to hear God laugh, tell him your plans".

 

[crablegs1]

Warner is definitely not ready if you watched yesterday you would know that and Lee need's more time to heal his knee its not about what you want its what's best for the wrestlers.

It does not need more time to heal. It is healed. If it needed more time, then he would not have wrestled yesterday. I don’t have inside knowledge, but you don’t wrestle live competition if you’re not fully healed.

I’m with Vodka. Let them both wrestle this year. They’re ready and we have no idea what kind of team we’ll have in 2022. Or what PSU, TOSu, OSU will have either. That is way to far out to be saving them for then.

I also side with FT that even with them it is unrealistic to think Iowa could win nationals. But, with Lee, PD3, and Warner I think they have a punchers chance.

 

[WatWest00]

I don’t think anybody’s opinion of Warner changed because of the loss yesterday. He absolutely could finish top 3 and would AA this year. I just happen to believe that Wilcke will absolutely AA this year, as well.

At the wrestle-off I was impressed with the strength gains Wilcke made since last year. I told my buddies that I wasn’t sure he could even make 184 if he had to THIS year. He was noticeably bigger than Warner. And he had the edge in quickness, IMO. His gains have been the most drastic on the team.

I think these 2 are so close to being in the same class this year that it wouldn’t hurt to redshirt Warner and put him in a position to be unstoppable next year. He has made extreme gains from just this summer in creating his own shots, but there is still work to be done in this area to challenge somebody like Moore. I just don’t see that the Warner upgrade is as significant as others believe for THIS year. I think next year is a different story when his strength advantage will be what truly sets him apart from everyone else.

 

[texas twister]

It does not need more time to heal. It is healed. If it needed more time, then he would not have wrestled yesterday. I don’t have inside knowledge, but you don’t wrestle live competition if you’re not fully healed. - crablegs

Happens all the time. Cory did it last year, Lee finished last season injured, DSJ finished up not healed his sophomore year, and McD did it his last year too. The desire to be on the mat contributing/competing causes unwise decisions sometimes. Word is that Stoll tried to come back too early last year.

 

[west2east]

Everyone needs to relax you can't decide what to do with Lee after 1 competition the staff has a plan to wait until 2nd semester.
As far as Warner the loss yesterday doesn't change much last year Hall lost to Brucki and still won a title

 

[MVPFAN]

Warner is definitely not ready if you watched yesterday you would know that and Lee need's more time to heal his knee its not about what you want its what's best for the wrestlers.

They would love to see us drop their shirts so a year gets used when it does not matter to them.

 

[24 so far]

For all those saying keep shirts and wait til next year - this year's team is better than next year's.

PSU only loses retherford and gains a bunch of studs.

The only guys we gain who aren't currently in the room are Cassioppi and Brands. No way either go as true freshman. We lose Sorensen and PD3.

Depending on how things are looking after Midlands in terms of performance, health, and the individual wrestlers preferences, there is a good reason to pull shirts and make a run this year.

How many years now have we been saying wait til next year? No one is slowing down in recruiting. Iowa got out recruited this year. (largely due to Teasdale backing out and effectively costing us 2 recruits - himself and Renteria as well swinging the recruiting back into PSUs favor).

I just don't get the insistence in every single thread that we need to hold shirts and wait til next year. Brands hasn't said that. The wrestlers haven't said that. In fact quite the contrary. They've hinted at going this year.

7 years, I think that's the answer to how long we've been saying wait till next year. Or 8 now perhaps. Do I win a t-shirt or anything?

 

[crablegs1]

It does not need more time to heal. It is healed. If it needed more time, then he would not have wrestled yesterday. I don’t have inside knowledge, but you don’t wrestle live competition if you’re not fully healed. - crablegs

Happens all the time. Cory did it last year, Lee finished last season injured, DSJ finished up not healed his sophomore year, and McD did it his last year too. The desire to be on the mat contributing/competing causes unwise decisions sometimes. Word is that Stoll tried to come back too early last year.

You must understand the difference between all of those situations and the current situation Lee is in right?

 

[el dub]

LOL I can’t believe some of you folks took my op seriously.

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

After yesterday, Warner is on the HR shit list. He failed. He didn't live up to the know it alls expectations. He's to small, not strong enough, not much of a gas tank. You know, the normal excuses from the know it alls.

I'm not sure a post could be further from the truth. Unless I'm missing some sarcasm.

 

[grapplefann]

It's not about next year, it's about 4 years from now when there is a distinct possibility PSU and tOSU will not be as strong as they are this year (especially tOSU) and then you will still have Lee and Warner in the lineup. Aside from that, there are no moves that can be made this season that will result in a championship without major injuries to both favorites plus Iowa needs to stay healthy and have an exceptional NCAA. What are the odds all those things happening? You simply aren't being realistic.

Yeah, like Carl will forget how to recruit and Ohio will run out of talent? Don't think so. PSU and tOSU will be strong EVERY year until one of them commits some sort of great error, also unlikely, or another team rises up.
That said I'm mixed on redshirts. Mostly I want what serves each athlete the best. If it's best for Lee or Warner to go, then they should go. If for best for them to to wait, then wait.

 

[artradley]

After yesterday, Warner is on the HR shit list. He failed. He didn't live up to the know it alls expectations. He's to small, not strong enough, not much of a gas tank. You know, the normal excuses from the know it alls.

Stfu. One bad match as a freshman. Doesn't take away from his potential and who he's already beat this season. I have no doubt he could AA if not win nationals this season.

It's probably in his best interest to redshirt this year, but in the teams best interest for him to go.

He does have great potential, and I don't think anybody argues otherwise. But those who penciled him in as a top-4 guy this year based on one match were premature.

IMO any kid who wants to go their freshman season, if they can win the spot, ought to be allowed to do so.

But as a fan, strictly from a strategic point of view, I'm hoping he and Lee choose to RS to give us one more year in the future of those two guys in the lineup.

I know you're an advocate of the notion that if we pull the shirts we could win NCAA's thus year, but it just seems like a massive long shot.

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

Redshirt or not, please allow me to just note the shocking level of development that Spencer has experienced in his short time in the Iowa room. It's mind-blowing how much this kid has developed under the Iowa staff. Hats off to Tom, Terry, and the crew for developing this kid beyond our wildest expectations. Hopefully he continues to develop at this pace under their guidance throughout his career.

 

[24 so far]

Redshirt or not, please allow me to just note the shocking level of development that Spencer has experienced in his short time in the Iowa room. It's mind-blowing how much this kid has developed under the Iowa staff. Hats off to Tom, Terry, and the crew for developing this kid beyond our wildest expectations. Hopefully he continues to develop at this pace under their guidance throughout his career.

He does appear to take instruction very well.