Changed My Mind on Lee’s Red Shirt

[TNTwrestle]

I know there's some discussion of this on other threads, but I thought I'd bring this one back from the dead to see how everyone's feeling now. I know this is kind of trolling, which I never do, but I'm not an I-told-you-so kind of guy (usually). I already know how you feel, Nashville, but I wondered if anyone else has a different view, post-Midlands?

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

You hate to overreact over one match, and considering how close the finals were, Spencer very well may have won the thing if he'd gotten the review and/or call in the semis (probably would have majored Suriano), but I'm leaning toward leaving the shirt on.

If Warnerov had won in dominating fashion and Spencer hadn't struggled, it would have been tempting to just pull all of the shirts, plug in PDIII, and go for the whole enchilada this season. Looks like Cash is a potential high AA anyway, and Warnerov will benefit a lot from a year of gaining strength. Even if Spencer could give it a go the rest of the season, it seems pretty clear that he'll be stronger on that knee after more recovery time.

We still have some horses this year and very well could finish higher as a team this season than last year without any of the true freshman studs in the lineup, particularly if PDIII finds his way into the lineup, which I think will happen. So I think we keep the stallions in the barn, let them get stronger and 100% healthy, and turn them loose next year.

 

[Neo_Hawk]

I believe I posted on this thread earlier that if he's healthy and wants to go, he should go. One match does not change my mind.

I also got into it with a few people who were certain he would beat Suriano and is beating Clark in the room. Neither of those things mater to me until March and do not play a role in my opinion of pulling his shirt.

This weekend I saw one of the most dominant performances from a Freshman maybe I've ever seen. Everyone takes a hit now and then, this kid is the real deal. Proud he is a hawk.

 

[TNTwrestle]

I don't think Lee's match makes that big a difference either, and think he would win a rematch. His strategy cost him (not giving up one and cutting his losses) and a poor call cost him. I still think the knee is at too much risk now, but I'm not a doctor.
I was referring more to the 197 situation where so many people were saying Warne rwas so much better than Wilcke and had NC potential this year.
Overall, with a few bad matches, brain farts, bad calls, the team looked good this weekend, although, admittedly, the competition was lacking at some weights.
I'm more optimistic than dejected after the tournament.

 

[pumpdog20]

If Lee is healthy and wants to go, pull the shirt. RIght now, unless something changes drastically in recruiting, Iowa is going to be a step behind the national contenders for the foreseeable future. Brands is going to need to keep people engaged this year and Lee will do that. Without Lee, I'm not so sure, as there isn't a legit title contender without the hope of a injury to Zain and Nolf.

A comment that really stuck out to me came after Meredith beat Heil. I'll paraphrase, but he was talking about not needing to go to the big schools, and specifically mentioned Penn State, Ohio State, and Oklahoma State. IMO this shouldn't be taken lightly, but I'm sure some of you will come lecture.

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

If Lee is healthy and wants to go, pull the shirt. RIght now, unless something changes drastically in recruiting, Iowa is going to be a step behind the national contenders for the foreseeable future. Brands is going to need to keep people engaged this year and Lee will do that. Without Lee, I'm not so sure, as there isn't a legit title contender without the hope of a injury to Zain and Nolf.

A comment that really stuck out to me came after Meredith beat Heil. I'll paraphrase, but he was talking about not needing to go to the big schools, and specifically mentioned Penn State, Ohio State, and Oklahoma State. IMO this shouldn't be taken lightly, but I'm sure some of you will come lecture.

I don't think "engagement" will be any different whether Spencer goes this season or not. That said, I agree that it should be up to him and his family, foremost.

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

I don't think Lee's match makes that big a difference either, and think he would win a rematch. His strategy cost him (not giving up one and cutting his losses) and a poor call cost him. I still think the knee is at too much risk now, but I'm not a doctor.
I was referring more to the 197 situation where so many people were saying Warne rwas so much better than Wilcke and had NC potential this year.
Overall, with a few bad matches, brain farts, bad calls, the team looked good this weekend, although, admittedly, the competition was lacking at some weights.
I'm more optimistic than dejected after the tournament.

Yeah -- as for Warnerov, no reason at all to pull the shirt. Extremely bright future, however!

 

[Dagboi]

Keep Warner’s shirt on this season, pull Spencer’s and let him loose on the competition.

Very excited by what I saw up and down the roster this past weekend.

 

[Czech Hawk]

I’ve been a redshirt Warner the whole way. If results for Wilcke and Warner were flipped for midlands and Lee was going... I would go along with it. It was like I thought, they are so close that Warner could do better at big 10’s or he may not. Give him his shirt and cash has clearly earned the spot. As for Lee - depending the knee. How did it feel after? That is the question. If 100 percent then it’s his call. Anything less, don’t risk it. How many of us would be crushed if what happened with Stoll would happen to Lee.

 

[texas twister]

Let Lee get healthier, bigger, and stronger. I am patient (sometimes). He'll be better starting next year. He is small for the weight class.

 

[JohnnyHandsome]

You hate to overreact over one match, and considering how close the finals were, Spencer very well may have won the thing if he'd gotten the review and/or call in the semis (probably would have majored Suriano), but I'm leaning toward leaving the shirt on.

If Warnerov had won in dominating fashion and Spencer hadn't struggled, it would have been tempting to just pull all of the shirts, plug in PDIII, and go for the whole enchilada this season. Looks like Cash is a potential high AA anyway, and Warnerov will benefit a lot from a year of gaining strength. Even if Spencer could give it a go the rest of the season, it seems pretty clear that he'll be stronger on that knee after more recovery time.

We still have some horses this year and very well could finish higher as a team this season than last year without any of the true freshman studs in the lineup, particularly if PDIII finds his way into the lineup, which I think will happen. So I think we keep the stallions in the barn, let them get stronger and 100% healthy, and turn them loose next year.

Hilarious!!

So Spencer loses to Bresser, who loses to Suriano, therefore Spencer would major Suriano?

Lee looked great at UNI, claiming his knee was good as new, He went on to Midlands walloping Russell with a 2nd per TF, a quality wrestler. No knee problems there. But after Lee's loss to Bresser, "it seems pretty clear that he'll be stronger on that knee after more recovery time. " lol

 

[TNTwrestle]

I'm thinking we have a fresh new candidate for the ignore button from what I've seen so far...

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

Hilarious!!

So Spencer loses to Bresser, who loses to Suriano, therefore Spencer would major Suriano?

Lee looked great at UNI, claiming his knee was good as new, He went on to Midlands walloping Russell with a 2nd per TF, a quality wrestler. No knee problems there. But after Lee's loss to Bresser, "it seems pretty clear that he'll be stronger on that knee after more recovery time. " lol

Hook, line, and sinker.

 

[pablow]

Hook, line, and sinker.

He's a 3rd rate troll. He's not in Tog's league. An amateur giving real trolls a bad name.

 

[grapplefann]

That being said, put me in the camp that really really really wants him to go this year. Oh, and I’d like to see Warner go as well...

That's 'cause you're not a Hawkeye fan. Fans want what's best for the individual and for their team. I'd like to see Rethererford become a Franciscan monk right now, but it ain't gonna happen.

 

[texas twister]

Hook, line, and sinker.

You are a great poster, big time supporter of Iowa wrestling, and a source of good information; however, if that was a "hook, line, and sinker" job, you got me too. Johnnyhandsome called it out and made a good observation. Try being a little more obvious of your traps in the future so that you don't pull me in too. I still think Lee wrestling Suriano would be a toss up right now. A year from now when Lee is bigger and healthier - I'd take Lee all day long.

 

[Dagboi]

Not sure what the hilarious part is. If Nick finishes 3rd that is 13.5 without any bonus. Marinelli with a good tournament probably finishes 5th which is 11 without bonus.

It seems one of you has a pretty decent understanding of what you are discussing.

Refresh my memory—is it normal for your “clear #3” (MSU’s words) to lose to an unranked 8-seed at a weakly attended tournament? As I said, he’s done NOTHING to show that he is capable of a top-3 finish. Stop handing guys a crown just because they wear that ugly-ass navy singlet.

Get ready for Nevills to get his ass handed to him by Sammy Stroll 3 times this year.....

 

[mpfeiler]

I would leave Lee's red-shirt on.

 

[MSU158]

Refresh my memory—is it normal for your “clear #3” (MSU’s words) to lose to an unranked 8-seed at a weakly attended tournament? As I said, he’s done NOTHING to show that he is capable of a top-3 finish. Stop handing guys a crown just because they wear that ugly-ass navy singlet.

Get ready for Nevills to get his ass handed to him by Sammy Stroll 3 times this year.....

Up to that point, he was the clear #3 beating Hall at the All Star and Kasper at the Keystone, and 1 loss doesn't destroy that. Sorenson lost to Lugo last year didn't he? Did that loss all of a sudden mean he wasn't the clear #2 or best of the rest(Retherford being the benchmark)?

Now, Stoll definitely has improved his stock by staying healthy and beating Hall, albeit in a unique fashion. Still, that was his first win over a top 25 opponent this season. Do I think he can beat Nevills? Absolutely. But, Nevills had earned being #3 and I wouldn't discredit him solely off of 1 loss.

Also, your done NOTHING comment is 100% without merit. He beat the guy that took 3rd last year in Hall and beat the guy who took 6th in Kasper. The guys that took 2nd and 4th graduated. Oh, and he took 5th last year. If that isn't enough to show he is capable of a 3rd place finish I don't know what is. Is he supposed to have beaten Snyder or Coon as well???

 

[TNTwrestle]

Up to that point, he was the clear #3 beating Hall at the All Star and Kasper at the Keystone, and 1 loss doesn't destroy that. Sorenson lost to Lugo last year didn't he? Did that loss all of a sudden mean he wasn't the clear #2 or best of the rest(Retherford being the benchmark)?

Now, Stoll definitely has improved his stock by staying healthy and beating Hall, albeit in a unique fashion. Still, that was his first win over a top 25 opponent this season. Do I think he can beat Nevills? Absolutely. But, Nevills had earned being #3 and I wouldn't discredit him solely off of 1 loss.

Also, your done NOTHING comment is 100% without merit. He beat the guy that took 3rd last year in Hall and beat the guy who took 6th in Kasper. The guys that took 2nd and 4th graduated. Oh, and he took 5th last year. If that isn't enough to show he is capable of a 3rd place finish I don't know what is. Is he supposed to have beaten Snyder or Coon as well???

Not arguing with what you said in general, but want to correct two statements;

Sorensen's loss to Lugo did,in fact, make him less than the clear #2 to the people that counted, the NCAA seeding committee. And that cost him 2nd place by putting him in Retherford's half of the bracket.

This is a minor one. Stoll beat Gunning earlier, no matter how controversially (or maybe incorrectly) and Gunning has been Top 25 all year. BTW, Stoll would kill him now, since his confidence in his knee has improved.

 

[andegre]

IMO...

If Lee's brace is strictly for preventative reasons, I'd still remove the shirt.

If it's because it's not 100% (and more time off/rehab will allow him to get to 100%), then he shouldn't be wrestling and needs to keep the shirt on.

I don't know which boat that brace falls into, but I'm hoping it falls under the preventative side, so I hope the shirt gets pulled.

 

[MSU158]

Not arguing with what you said in general, but want to correct two statements;

Sorensen's loss to Lugo did,in fact, make him less than the clear #2 to the people that counted, the NCAA seeding committee. And that cost him 2nd place by putting him in Retherford's half of the bracket.

This is a minor one. Stoll beat Gunning earlier, no matter how controversially (or maybe incorrectly) and Gunning has been Top 25 all year. BTW, Stoll would kill him now, since his confidence in his knee has improved.

I get what you mean, but I wasn't talking about seeding. The loss cost him a seed and inevitably making the finals, but I doubt many actually thought he wasn't the #2 in the weight, or at the very least the 3 when considering Collica had a very good year coming in. The point was really that 1 loss doesn't negate strong wins and proven results at NCAA's.

My rankings may be a tad off as I simply used wrestlestat which has gunning at a pedestrian 9-4 with no real wins of note and ranked #33.

 

[ohio2375]

me personally I am a believer in if you have any chance at a team national title you push all your chips in and go for it(god somehow I feel this screws tomasello but I hope not).The idea of "wait till next year" is just deferred despair to me. I have learned this as a browns fan. The question I haven't seen on your board that I would like to hear opinions on is who at what weight between 184/197 would maximize your point total? Meaning would you score more leaving Downey at 97 and moving wilcke to 84 or vice versa. Cause if the answer is wilcke at 84 I don't see why he wouldn't move down now so it clears up the 97 issue next year.

 

[pablow]

me personally I am a believer in if you have any chance at a team national title you push all your chips in and go for it(god somehow I feel this screws tomasello but I hope not).The idea of "wait till next year" is just deferred despair to me. I have learned this as a browns fan. The question I haven't seen on your board that I would like to hear opinions on is who at what weight between 184/197 would maximize your point total? Meaning would you score more leaving Downey at 97 and moving wilcke to 84 or vice versa. Cause if the answer is wilcke at 84 I don't see why he wouldn't move down now so it clears up the 97 issue next year.

I don't know. Tell your Browns to trade down a bit and draft Roquan Smith - he's the real deal.

 

[ohio2375]

I don't know. Tell your Browns to trade down a bit and draft Roquan Smith - he's the real deal.

A drunk monkey throwing darts at a list of names can draft better than the browns.

 

[hawkeyeuser]

I'd let Lee wrestle this year. The knee has to be 100%. They would not risk any action if that was not the case. The brace has to be a preventative measure.

He is a title contender now. Not a long shot, a good bet to win it all. Don't wait figuring he has 4 good years left. You have to do what is best for each individual. That IMO is letting Lee wrestle now. He is ready.



Warner on the other hand needs a year. Build up his core strength and gas tank. He ran out of both against Wilke and then had nothing left for Brunner. Brunner. I can't wait to see Wilke at 184 and Warner at 197 next year.

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

me personally I am a believer in if you have any chance at a team national title you push all your chips in and go for it(god somehow I feel this screws tomasello but I hope not).The idea of "wait till next year" is just deferred despair to me. I have learned this as a browns fan. The question I haven't seen on your board that I would like to hear opinions on is who at what weight between 184/197 would maximize your point total? Meaning would you score more leaving Downey at 97 and moving wilcke to 84 or vice versa. Cause if the answer is wilcke at 84 I don't see why he wouldn't move down now so it clears up the 97 issue next year.

I think Cash is too big to make the cut now. Pat has the better shot at making the cut. So I see Pat at 184 and Cash at 197.

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

125: Lee
133: Laux/Glynn
141: Happel/Turk
149: Sorensen
157: Kemerer
165: Marinelli
174: Gunther/Young
184: Downey
197: Wilcke
285: Stoll

That's a pretty salty lineup, folks.

 

[Gobblin]

The decision always has been, and remains up to the Lee family... I've said from the jump that as soon as the knee is ready to roll, he will be also. None of that has changed because of the match with Bresser. I still fully expect Lee to come off his redshirt this season.

 

[Multi-Hawk]

The decision always has been, and remains up to the Lee family... I've said from the jump that as soon as the knee is ready to roll, he will be also. None of that has changed because of the match with Bresser. I still fully expect Lee to come off his redshirt this season.

You're not alone

 

[Mattski]

The reason I'm pro pull shirts (depending on how Warner/Lee do at Midlands) is because I see this season as more winnable than the following 2 seasons.

For Lee and Warner or for the team? Bc our staff has ultimately stated the decisions are made based on what's best for the athlete not necessarily the team.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

For Lee and Warner or for the team? Bc our staff has ultimately stated the decisions are made based on what's best for the athlete not necessarily the team.

Team of course. I've stated before, the weird thing about college wrestling is the thing that's best for the team and the thing that's best for each individual athlete don't always align since it's an individual accolade and team accolade sport. I think Warner could AA this year. I think with a year of growth in size and experience he'll be title contender. Either way, I'm fully ok with him redshirting after seeing how Midlands played out. Cash is looking great this year and Warner took some losses. Made that decision easy. And for Lee, I trust the coaches, and Lee's family to make that decision. I'm not worried about that loss to Bresser. Lee will beat him next time. I do agree with the people who said Lee needs to learn to wrestle more strategically in tight matches. He's so used to dominating everyone. Fix and Suriano both beat Bresser in a very close match. Lee will learn and do the same next time.

 

[TarpHawk]

Well I could have given a synopsis on the entire team, but the point was your big guns need to perform if you're going to win NCAA Titles, and ours didn't. That was the topic of discussion earlier in this thread. You can celebrate Cash Wilckes surprising run to Rd 12 all you want, but that isn't winning NCAA Titles if others aren't doing similar things (i.e. overperforming). Whether they wrestle back for 3rd or not is irrelevant, the big points aren't earned in the consolation bracket.

Here's another fact. We finished 49.5 points back from the National Team Champions.

#1 Gilman was undefeated and a runaway freight train favorite and loses in the Semi's to #4 seed Darian Cruz, a guy not even mentioned to win it THIS year by many, and currently ranked 4th as a Defending Champion.

Sorensen is 4th as a freshman, 2nd as a sophomore and only on paper is he a #5 seed. He gets tossed every which way but loose and then gets stuck, in a match where he's proven he can hang and possibly win if he shows up. He didn't.

#2 seed Kemerer gets stuck by the #7 seed in the quarterfinals.

Here's what Penn States big guns did.

#1 Retherford = Champion
#1 Nolf = Champion
#3 Joseph = Champion
#5 Hall = Champion
#2 Nickal = Champion

Now you see how this works when you "overperform? You win NCAA Team Titles. That was the topic. That's what my commentary was about, and I clearly stated these guys are great Hawkeyes, but they didn't "overperform" at last years NCAA's. The team that beat us by 49.5 points did.

That's the point. Get it yet?

Well, when you say it all fancy like that...

 

[24 so far]

Well, when you say it all fancy like that...

I call'em like I see'em Tarp. Some may like it, some may not. Either works for me.

 

[Dagboi]

I don't know. Tell your Browns to trade down a bit and draft Roquan Smith - he's the real deal.

Pablow shoutin' out my Dawgs! I love it! By far the best player on our team, and when you can say that with Nick Chubb and Sony Michel in the running, you know you have a special talent. This kid will hit the ground running in the NFL.

 

[Neo_Hawk]

Pablow shoutin' out my Dawgs! I love it! By far the best player on our team, and when you can say that with Nick Chubb and Sony Michel in the running, you know you have a special talent. This kid will hit the ground running in the NFL.

I hate be reminded that I am a Browns fan when such a positive announcement like Free The Lee is happening, leave it to fellow Browns fans for bring me back down to earth.

Although a direct comparison can be drawn here. Based on some peoples logic, we should red shirt Lee this year, even though he is ready to roll, so we can win it all in 2023. Which is what the Browns have been doing for the past 20 years. So let's trade our #1 and #4 picks this year for more picks next year, by the time 2023 rolls around, we should have the top 15 picks!

Not working for Cleveland and won't work for Iowa, I am glad to see TNT not making the mistake by the lake mistake.