Changed My Mind on Lee’s Red Shirt

[jvclark]

For all those saying keep shirts and wait til next year - this year's team is better than next year's.

PSU only loses retherford and gains a bunch of studs.

The only guys we gain who aren't currently in the room are Cassioppi and Brands. No way either go as true freshman. We lose Sorensen and PD3.

Depending on how things are looking after Midlands in terms of performance, health, and the individual wrestlers preferences, there is a good reason to pull shirts and make a run this year.

How many years now have we been saying wait til next year? No one is slowing down in recruiting. Iowa got out recruited this year. (largely due to Teasdale backing out and effectively costing us 2 recruits - himself and Renteria as well swinging the recruiting back into PSUs favor).

I just don't get the insistence in every single thread that we need to hold shirts and wait til next year. Brands hasn't said that. The wrestlers haven't said that. In fact quite the contrary. They've hinted at going this year.

I think we need to stop worrying about PSU. What I mean by that is we need to assume they are going to be loaded until Cael leaves. Fair?? So they are almost always going to be a title favorite or at worst a title contender.

So until we are on par with those PSU expectations consistently, I think we need to plan for a 2-3 year run and roll the dice there

I didn't see Lee or warner yesterday, so from that aspect I have no comment. But freshmen are exactly that. Freshmen. They always have a few let downs early.

So as I have said many many times. Unless the kids and families dont want to redshirt(for personal, educational or professional purposes), i say we redshirt them as I just can't see us winning this year. Unless PSU and fOSU have a few major injuries and we wrestle above expectations.


GO HAWKS!!

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

I think we need to stop worrying about PSU. What I mean by that is we need to assume they are going to be loaded until Cael leaves. Fair?? So they are almost always going to be a title favorite or at worst a title contender.

So until we are on par with those PSU expectations consistently, I think we need to plan for a 2-3 year run and roll the dice there

I didn't see Lee or warner yesterday, so from that aspect I have no comment. But freshmen are exactly that. Freshmen. They always have a few let downs early.

So as I have said many many times. Unless the kids and families dont want to redshirt(for personal, educational or professional purposes), i say we redshirt them as I just can't see us winning this year. Unless PSU and fOSU have a few major injuries and we wrestle above expectations.


GO HAWKS!!

I'm not sure Spencer will ever have a letdown. This kid is not your typical freshman -- not by a long shot. Frankly, even if he has a letdown, it might mean that he wins by decision rather than bonus. Nobody is invincible, and he'll have challenges in guys like Tomasello and Suriano, but Spencer is a breed of his own. And you really should watch a couple of his matches from yesterday -- they're available in the "UNI Open" thread. Having followed Iowa wrestling for 40 years, I've never seen a freshman this good.

 

[artradley]

He does appear to take instruction very well.

Assuming the instructions are, "Take him down. Turn him. Pin him."

 

[jvclark]

I'm not sure Spencer will ever have a letdown. This kid is not your typical freshman -- not by a long shot. Frankly, even if he has a letdown, it might mean that he wins by decision rather than bonus. Nobody is invincible, and he'll have challenges in guys like Tomasello and Suriano, but Spencer is a breed of his own. And you really should watch a couple of his matches from yesterday -- they're available in the "UNI Open" thread. Having followed Iowa wrestling for 40 years, I've never seen a freshman this good.

Thanks for the heads up!! I will do so

Btw. I was kind of off kind grid til this morning and didn't even know if he and Warner won or lost. I was just basing my comments on a few of the early posts in this thread

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

So until we are on par with those PSU expectations consistently, I think we need to plan for a 2-3 year run and roll the dice there

I get your point but this year may be Iowa's best chance in the next few years. We're losing Sorensen and PD3 two high AAs. We gain Brands and Cassioppi next year. Both who will redshirt.

So next seasons team will be the same as this year's minus PD3 and Sorensen.

Now let's look two seasons ahead. We lose Stoll but Cassioppi becomes a starter. Best case scenario, Cassioppi as a freshman is equivalent to Stoll as a senior. (I think Cassioppi will have the better career).

Who knows what Brands will turn out to be. High ceiling. Or may not make the lineup.

And then we'll have a new group of recruits, but if we aren't going to start Lee or Warner this year why would we assume we'll start any of the true freshman 2 years from now.

I think Lee is already a title contender this year so not many points to be gained by redshirting him and giving him another year of experience. I think Warner is high AA right now. I do feel like he has a lot of room for physical growth and maturity so he could benefit from a redshirt, but again from a team title perspective, I like our chances better this year with Sorensen and PD3 than a year or two from now.

Reality is, we got some great transfers this season with Lugo and PD3 but the recruiting class isn't what was needed. I'm really excited about Cassioppi but we needed one more blue chipper.

Do all of the people hoping for redshirts truly believe we have a better chance in 2018-2019 or 2019-2020 than we do this season?

From an individual perspective, redshirts might make sense this year. From a team perspective, they really don't. We need to place high and keep the momentum going for the program. We need a big recruiting class next year.

 

[MitchL]

I don't think Iowa can afford to be perceived as a program that is becoming fringe top 5. Without the bonus point machines... that could be the case, or maybe it already is.
Personally, I hope he goes this year.

 

[nitlion6]

Pull all shirts. Go all in. Personally I do not believe the Hawks have anywhere near what they need to make a run, but I would love to see the Hawks make their best run.

 

[crablegs1]

Any talk about redshirting because the team is not ready this year, is really just hoping the team is ready in 2022. Lee will be there in 2021 whether he redshirts this year or not.

PSU in 2022 will have
Teske
Teasdale
RBY
N Lee
Berge
J Lee
Manville
Beard
Nevills
*throw busiello And his verbal in as a backup.

Vs an Iowa with
Lee
Murin
Brands
Wilson
Warner
Cassiopi

This is the matchup that people are saving a year for? That looks like PSU by 40+ to me.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

Any talk about redshirting because the team is not ready this year, is really just hoping the team is ready in 2022. Lee will be there in 2021 whether he redshirts this year or not.

PSU in 2022 will have
Teske
Teasdale
RBY
N Lee
Berge
J Lee
Manville
Beard
Nevills
*throw busiello And his verbal in as a backup.

Vs an Iowa with
Lee
Murin
Brands
Wilson
Warner
Cassiopi

This is the matchup that people are saving a year for? That looks like PSU by 40+ to me.

Yep and Brooks is a PSU lean.

 

[crablegs1]

Yep and Brooks is a PSU lean.

Of course. So is McHenry, but I just used actual signings and people already there in that lineup.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

Pull all shirts. Go all in. Personally I do not believe the Hawks have anywhere near what they need to make a run, but I would love to see the Hawks make their best run.

Do you agree that Lee, Sorensen, and Kem are all favorites to make the finals? And Warner, PD3 have a realistic shot at the finals along with Marinelli as a high AA.

Then potential AA in Stoll.

Just don't get how you rule that team out.

The only lock for PSU is Retherford imo. Sorensen wrestled him tough once last year but I'd say it's like 99% to Retherford.

I think Kem pushes Nolf this season.

I don't see Joseph repeating. Hall is 50/50. Nickal is 70/30.

If PSU has a bad tourney and Iowa has a good tourney it's definitely winnable this season.

The big if is PSU having a bad tourney. Hasn't been the case past few years, but doesn't mean that will be the case forever.

Add in the very realistic injury potential. (ie Suriano last year).

Things could get very interesting.

Iowa's best chance at a title in the next 3 years is this season.

 

[nitlion6]

Of course. So is McHenry, but I just used actual signings and people already there in that lineup.

McHenry is probably a Cornell lean.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

Of course. So is McHenry, but I just used actual signings and people already there in that lineup.

Yep, but just solidifies your point that PSU isn't going anywhere. Waiting for a down year for other teams is a bad strategy. Have to go for it on a high year for your own team and see how things play out.

 

[TarpHawk]

Vodka, I don't know if you're starting to wear me down because (a) you make sense, (b) you're brainwashing me by repeating the same thing over and over, or (c) it's like Chinese water torture and I'll agree to anything to make it stop.

The most compelling point you (and others) have made is that the odds of winning a title aren't any better next year, and likely not 4-5 years from now either. I think that's true, unfortunately, based on who's in the stable and who's committed right now.

I still believe we take third this year if we pull everyone's shirts. But it would be third with 115 points. One could make a strong argument that we should do that even knowing we probably aren't going to score 130, which is what it will likely take to win this year. Recruiting and momentum are the main reasons.

For me, the definition of Chinese water torture is watching our current 125-141 lineup every dual meet. Reading post after post by you saying the same thing is the less painful form of torture, so I'm willing to agree with pulling the shirts at this point.

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

Vodka, I don't know if you're starting to wear me down because (a) you make sense, (b) you're brainwashing me by repeating the same thing over and over, or (c) it's like Chinese water torture and I'll agree to anything to make it stop.

The most compelling point you (and others) have made is that the odds of winning a title aren't any better next year, and likely not 4-5 years from now either. I think that's true, unfortunately, based on who's in the stable and who's committed right now.

I still believe we take third this year if we pull everyone's shirts. But it would be third with 115 points. One could make a strong argument that we should do that even knowing we probably aren't going to score 130, which is what it will likely take to win this year. Recruiting and momentum are the main reasons.

For me, the definition of Chinese water torture is watching our current 125-141 lineup every dual meet. Reading post after post by you saying the same thing is the less painful form of torture, so I'm willing to agree with pulling the shirts at this point.

That's some classic Tarp right there. Good stuff! And I have to say Vodka is wearing me down, too.

 

[Kwoodhawk]

Just starting to wonder if Vodka...............

Is Mr. Lee.................

 

[Flying_Tiger]

I think vodka is making a pretty good argument however tOSU is absolutely stacked with it's best team ever and Penn State has 5 returning champs. Even with the exceptional recruiting, what are the odds that they have that much fire power when Lee and Warner are RS seniors? Will they still be formidable, yes, but they may at least be beatable. This is just bad timing for you guys because most years I would agree that pulling the shirts makes a lot of sense.

The being said, personally I want to see Lee wrestle this year because that means I get to cheer for him at NCAAs since he one of only a few guys that can knock off Nato. It also means PSU will have one less year of dealing with him when the team race with Iowa might be closer.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

Vodka, I don't know if you're starting to wear me down because (a) you make sense, (b) you're brainwashing me by repeating the same thing over and over, or (c) it's like Chinese water torture and I'll agree to anything to make it stop.

The most compelling point you (and others) have made is that the odds of winning a title aren't any better next year, and likely not 4-5 years from now either. I think that's true, unfortunately, based on who's in the stable and who's committed right now.

I still believe we take third this year if we pull everyone's shirts. But it would be third with 115 points. One could make a strong argument that we should do that even knowing we probably aren't going to score 130, which is what it will likely take to win this year. Recruiting and momentum are the main reasons.

For me, the definition of Chinese water torture is watching our current 125-141 lineup every dual meet. Reading post after post by you saying the same thing is the less painful form of torture, so I'm willing to agree with pulling the shirts at this point.

You're absolutely right I've repeated myself too many times on this topic. I just keep seeing new posts insisting on redshirts which gets me going on this spiel all over again lol.

The interesting thing about wrestling is that the team's interests and individual wrestlers' interests don't always align. I think it makes sense for Warner to redshirt this year from an individual perspective, but not from a team perspective.

 

[crablegs1]

I think vodka is making a pretty good argument however tOSU is absolutely stacked with it's best team ever and Penn State has 5 returning champs. Even with the exceptional recruiting, what are the odds that they have that much fire power when Lee and Warner are RS seniors? Will they still be formidable, yes, but they may at least be beatable. This is just bad timing for you guys because most years I would agree that pulling the shirts makes a lot of sense.

The being said, personally I want to see Lee wrestle this year because that means I get to cheer for him at NCAAs because he one of only a few guys that can knock off Nato. It also means PSU will have one less year of dealing with him when the team race with Iowa might be closer.

Who would have ever thought they could replace Taylor, Wright, Ruth? Fool me once shame on you...

 

[WDuck5217]

Lineups of Iowa and Penn State's teams this year if Iowa pulls the shirts. (Not sure how many points teams get at NCAAs per bonus and round so I'm just going to predict placement.) And let me say this is best case scenario for Iowa but not out of this world

125: Lee (Champ, bonus at least into Semis)
133: Laux (Qualifer, maybe a couple points)
141: Turk/Happle (Qualifer, maybe a couple points)
149: Sorensen (Finalist, bonus into quarters)
157: Kemerer (CHAMP, bonus into the Semis)
165: Marinelli (Mid to Hi AA, don't think he's too far off from Vincenzo, 3-6 range, some bonus)
174: Gunther (Win a couple matches, possibly round of 12, probably not much bonus but will grind out some wins)
184: Downey (Finalist/Champ, hasn't even wrestled here yet and who knows, but hey you gotta believe, couple bonus wins)
197: Wilcke (Low AA, 6th-8th place, probably not much bonus)
Warner (High AA, Finalist if he wrestles like he can, bonus to semis/quarters)
285: Stoll (Mid to High AA, 3rd-6th place, some big pins somewhere in the tourney)
So best case scenario we have 8 AA's, 5 finalists, and 3 champs. And remember that's probably best case, if things go right.

Probably not best case for Penn State
Penn State
125: Schnupp (non qualifier, unless they have another guy they probably won't qualify here)
133: Keener (qualifier, win a couple matches, maybe round of 12, not going to place)
141: Cortez (low AA, 6th to 8th, will get some bonus)
149: Retherford (champ, will bonus way to the finals, hopefully Sorensen doesn't get bonused)
157: Nolf (finalist/champ, bonus to semis or finals, Kemdawg gonna get the upset)
165: Vincenzo (finalist/high AA, 2nd-4th, don't see him beating IMar again, will get some bonus)
174: Hall (champ/high AA, could win this, but could also get 3rd, will get bonus)
184: Nickal (finalist/champ, would be a shock if not in the finals, will probably bonus his way there, Downey for the W tho)
197: Cassar (low AA, 6th-8th, haven't seen a lot of him so he could also be a top 6 guy, or maybe R12 so I'm going 6th-8th, not sure on bonus)
285: Nevills (high to mid AA, see somewhere from 3rd-5th, expecting more of a 4th/5th, hopefully Stoll can beat him)

So, I'm giving Penn State 8 AA's, 4 finalists (I think ether Vincenzo or Hall won't make it again, and two champs, with the Downey and Kemerer upset. Obviously I know this isn't best case scenario for Penn State and who knows they might go off again this NCAA's and kill my prediction. And bonus will factor in here as well, but hey I'm and optimist and a dreamer, and I think Iowa can definitely get a trophy and have a chance for a title. Go Hawks, let's get it done.

 

[nitlion6]

Do you agree that Lee, Sorensen, and Kem are all favorites to make the finals? And Warner, PD3 have a realistic shot at the finals along with Marinelli as a high AA.

Then potential AA in Stoll.

Just don't get how you rule that team out.

The only lock for PSU is Retherford imo. Sorensen wrestled him tough once last year but I'd say it's like 99% to Retherford.

I think Kem pushes Nolf this season.

I don't see Joseph repeating. Hall is 50/50. Nickal is 70/30.

If PSU has a bad tourney and Iowa has a good tourney it's definitely winnable this season.

The big if is PSU having a bad tourney. Hasn't been the case past few years, but doesn't mean that will be the case forever.

Add in the very realistic injury potential. (ie Suriano last year).

Things could get very interesting.

Iowa's best chance at a title in the next 3 years is this season.

If all shirts are pulled Spencer and Kemerer probably make finals. Sorenson obviously has the talent to make the finals, but I have yet to see him wrestle like a guy who is focused on a last run.

No I do not agree Warmer is a probable finalist, but he gets you points.

Before you count on anything from PD3, should you not wait until he is officially an Iowa student? If he gets enrolled and manages to not rub Tom's last nerve raw a never has been is more than a huge stretch to reach the finals when there are two returning champions at the weight, and neither looks like they are planning on giving an inch.

Marinelli will probably AA, but more likely 5 to 8 not top 4. The same as Sam.

I suppose it is possible Kemerer closes the gap (which was significant) between he and Nolf. I can tell you Nolf is improved and the gap most likely has widened, not narrowed.

As far as who has a good tournament and who falters a bit. There is a strong 7 year record indicating which team is more likely to have a strong tournament. However, let's say the Nits falter a bit and the Hawks step forward - the nature nuts are still standing in your way.

So as I said. I would like to see the Hawks go all in and give it their best shot, but I do not see you doing better than 3rd and outpacing the CowPokes for 3rd will be a challenge.

 

[CumberlandHawk]

Its amazing that they can take a State runner up and turn him into a monster in less than a year.

 

[nitlion6]

Its amazing that they can take a State runner up and turn him into a monster in less than a year.

The state is Pennsylvania.

 

[el dub]

We need to put our best team on the mat every year. Not just those we are predicted to win it all.

With only 9.9 scholarships, we can’t afford to have true talent riding the pine.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

Lineups of Iowa and Penn State's teams this year if Iowa pulls the shirts. (Not sure how many points teams get at NCAAs per bonus and round so I'm just going to predict placement.) And let me say this is best case scenario for Iowa but not out of this world

125: Lee (Champ, bonus at least into Semis)
133: Laux (Qualifer, maybe a couple points)
141: Turk/Happle (Qualifer, maybe a couple points)
149: Sorensen (Finalist, bonus into quarters)
157: Kemerer (CHAMP, bonus into the Semis)
165: Marinelli (Mid to Hi AA, don't think he's too far off from Vincenzo, 3-6 range, some bonus)
174: Gunther (Win a couple matches, possibly round of 12, probably not much bonus but will grind out some wins)
184: Downey (Finalist/Champ, hasn't even wrestled here yet and who knows, but hey you gotta believe, couple bonus wins)
197: Wilcke (Low AA, 6th-8th place, probably not much bonus)
Warner (High AA, Finalist if he wrestles like he can, bonus to semis/quarters)
285: Stoll (Mid to High AA, 3rd-6th place, some big pins somewhere in the tourney)
So best case scenario we have 8 AA's, 5 finalists, and 3 champs. And remember that's probably best case, if things go right.

Probably not best case for Penn State
Penn State
125: Schnupp (non qualifier, unless they have another guy they probably won't qualify here)
133: Keener (qualifier, win a couple matches, maybe round of 12, not going to place)
141: Cortez (low AA, 6th to 8th, will get some bonus)
149: Retherford (champ, will bonus way to the finals, hopefully Sorensen doesn't get bonused)
157: Nolf (finalist/champ, bonus to semis or finals, Kemdawg gonna get the upset)
165: Vincenzo (finalist/high AA, 2nd-4th, don't see him beating IMar again, will get some bonus)
174: Hall (champ/high AA, could win this, but could also get 3rd, will get bonus)
184: Nickal (finalist/champ, would be a shock if not in the finals, will probably bonus his way there, Downey for the W tho)
197: Cassar (low AA, 6th-8th, haven't seen a lot of him so he could also be a top 6 guy, or maybe R12 so I'm going 6th-8th, not sure on bonus)
285: Nevills (high to mid AA, see somewhere from 3rd-5th, expecting more of a 4th/5th, hopefully Stoll can beat him)

So, I'm giving Penn State 8 AA's, 4 finalists (I think ether Vincenzo or Hall won't make it again, and two champs, with the Downey and Kemerer upset. Obviously I know this isn't best case scenario for Penn State and who knows they might go off again this NCAA's and kill my prediction. And bonus will factor in here as well, but hey I'm and optimist and a dreamer, and I think Iowa can definitely get a trophy and have a chance for a title. Go Hawks, let's get it done.

Nice analysis. That's about spot on the scenario I've been seeing as the possiblity for Iowa to win it this year.

Obviously not the most likely outcome, but definitely a realistic outcome if everyone has a perfect tournament.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

If all shirts are pulled Spencer and Kemerer probably make finals. Sorenson obviously has the talent to make the finals, but I have yet to see him wrestle like a guy who is focused on a last run.

No I do not agree Warmer is a probable finalist, but he gets you points.

Before you count on anything from PD3, should you not wait until he is officially an Iowa student? If he gets enrolled and manages to not rub Tom's last nerve raw a never has been is more than a huge stretch to reach the finals when there are two returning champions at the weight, and neither looks like they are planning on giving an inch.

Marinelli will probably AA, but more likely 5 to 8 not top 4. The same as Sam.

I suppose it is possible Kemerer closes the gap (which was significant) between he and Nolf. I can tell you Nolf is improved and the gap most likely has widened, not narrowed.

As far as who has a good tournament and who falters a bit. There is a strong 7 year record indicating which team is more likely to have a strong tournament. However, let's say the Nits falter a bit and the Hawks step forward - the nature nuts are still standing in your way.

So as I said. I would like to see the Hawks go all in and give it their best shot, but I do not see you doing better than 3rd and outpacing the CowPokes for 3rd will be a challenge.

Reread I didn't ask if you agree that Warner is probable to make the finals. I said do you agree he has a realistic shot at making the finals?

There's a big difference. If we're talking probabilities, obviously everything favors PSU and OSU over Iowa. If we're talking realistic chances then Iowa can't be ruled out.

I would be surprised if Nolf furthered the gap on Kem. Kem put on a lot of size in the off season. He was undersized last year and should have been a 49 if not for Sorensen being there.

Downey graduates in a week. All signs point to him being on the team very soon. Not sure why we'd assume otherwise unless info comes out with that being the case.

 

[nitlion6]

Reread I didn't ask if you agree that Warner is probable to make the finals. I said do you agree he has a realistic shot at making the finals?

There's a big difference. If we're talking probabilities, obviously everything favors PSU and OSU over Iowa. If we're talking realistic chances than Iowa can't be ruled out.

I would be surprised if Nolf furthered the gap on Kem. Kem put on a lot of size in the off season. He was undersized last year and should have been a 49 if not for Sorensen being there.

Downey graduates in a week. All signs point to him being on the team very soon. Not sure why we'd assume otherwise unless info comes out with that being the case.

No. I do not believe Warner has a realistic chance at making the finals. I believe if he has a solid tournament he places and garners you guys some solid points.

With that said, perfect storms happen. Myles Martin 2 years ago is the perfect example.

Nolf and Kemerer. We will see.

PD3. History is a reasonable reason to wait until you see him in the room to believe. That still doesn't change his pedigree compared to Bo and Myles. He is not going to be the straw who stirs the drink. If he stays out of trouble, finds out determined effort generally leads to more successes than does being the class clown and finishes 5th, 6th or 7th for the Hawks then the PD3 experiment will be viewed by Tom as a huge success.

As far as chances. If the Hawks were just a step or two behind just the Nits with nobody between the two then adding a couple studs would be significant.

Right now the Hawks are more than a couple steps behind and minimally there are 2 teams currently between the Hawks and Nits. Tp get done what you wish to see happen would require a huge step forwatd over 3 teams who right now are better and would require all three to falter.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

No. I do not believe Warner has a realistic chance at making the finals. I believe if he has a solid tournament he places and garners you guys some solid points.

Then who do you see as realistic finalists at 197? Would you say #2 ranked Miklus is a realistic finalist?

And who exactly do you see beating Sorensen before the finals? He's the clear #2

 

[TNTwrestle]

Vodka is not wearing me down at all. The decision on Lee should be health, and what he/his family want. Sure, he beat up some nobodys yesterday, and I know he can beat a lot of somebodys. But Nato and that guy from Rutgers are going to stress that knee much more than anyone he saw yesterday. You can tell me he's healed until you're blue in the face, but I know the statistics and have a lot of expeience with ACLs myself and from friends and acquaintances, and I know 9 months is risky. If the shirt gets pulled and something happens in January, you'll all be crying in your beer and asking why they wasted him.
Warner had one big win over a flaky guy who has lost to unranked wrestlers before and you all annoint him a finalist. He beat Wilcke by one point in the wrestle-offs. He has had a few one-point matches with D3 or NAIA guys. He needs a year to develop, then could likely be a finalist. Wilcke was R12 last year and is bigger, stronger, and more experienced this year. Warner is, at best, 1-2 places higher at NCAAs IMHO. It would be a total waste unless Wilcke gets hurt.
Everyone keeps talking like PD3 is a lock to make the team and keep his nose clean for three months. I believe people can (and sometimes do) change, but the odds, if you're a betting man, are slim. I have faith TnT can make a difference in his life, but looking at his past, I'm not sure enough difference. I REALLY hope I'm wrong about this, but I'm skeptical at best.
I'm sorry I'm sounding like a broken record (much like Mr Vodka) and sounding negative, but I want what is best for the wrestlers and the team, and I'm not sure what most people are saying should happen fits that bill.

 

[TNTwrestle]

Then who do you see as realistic finalists at 197? Would you say #2 ranked Miklus is a realistic finalist?

And who exactly do you see beating Sorensen before the finals? He's the clear #2

No, I don't see Miklus as a finalist. Way too inconsistent. But I don't see Warner as a finalist THIS YEAR either.

 

[Dagboi]

Lmfao so now it's wait for 4 years from now. Give me a break.

And Iowa can win it this year even without injuries to PSU or OSU. Some of you are oblivious to how odds work. The favorite doesn't win everytime in sports. I assume you've all been watching sports long enough to see plenty of upsets. All it takes is a few upsets to turn the NCAA tournament on it's head.

Iowa is right there this year if they throw the best guys out there. I trust the coaching staff to make the decision.

Iowa could realistically have 5 finalists this season with 3 of them being expected to make the finala, yet they're being written off. Just does not make sense.

I think it's much more likely that PSU does not repeat with 5 champs than it is that they do repeat yet for some reason people are making PSUs projections based on the assumption that all 5 will repeat.

You say I'm not realistic? I didn't say Iowa is the likely winner this year. Just that they have a realistic shot. On the other hand people absolutely writing them off are the ones not being realistic and must not have been watching sports for very long.

Vodka gets it. Go Hawks, buddy.

 

[nitlion6]

Then who do you see as realistic finalists at 197? Would you say #2 ranked Miklus is a realistic finalist?

And who exactly do you see beating Sorensen before the finals? He's the clear #2

Yes I know Warner beat Miklus, but if we were placing bets right now I easily take the field. If specific I would take Moore, Miklus, Haught, Weigel way before I net on true freshman Warner.

As far as Sorenson. He got a pin today, but I am still waiting to see him wrestle with a focused sense of urgency. Without that sense of urgency he can be upset by anybody. I don't imagine you foresaw Cruz wrestling Lizak in the 125 finals last year. You let a determined lesser skilled kid hang around bad stuff happens.

I get you are a passionate Hawk fan, but you are presenting a perfect storm scenario which requires the Hawks to hit everything while 3 other teams collectively falter at significant level, and then you ask if it is realistic.

I am just telling you no it is not realistic. But that's OK. Fans do not necessarily have to be realistic. At some point every baseball season I believe the Pirates will somehow manage to get to the World Series.

 

[rossel 33]

It does not need more time to heal. It is healed. If it needed more time, then he would not have wrestled yesterday. I don’t have inside knowledge, but you don’t wrestle live competition if you’re not fully healed.

and thank you Dr crablegs for your informed medical decision

 

[rossel 33]

The state is Pennsylvania.

and the coaches are the Brands bros

 

[squibs]

We need to put our best team on the mat every year. Not just those we are predicted to win it all.

With only 9.9 scholarships, we can’t afford to have true talent riding the pine.

 

[squibs]

Predicting 1,2,3,4 years down the road is a fool's game. That assumes our situation will be assured and other teams will stand still. They won't. None of us has the algorithm that will set us up for a sure title.

As El Dub said...put your best 10 guys on the mat. If they're not healthy, they will know it, team doctors will know it, TnT will know it. Other than that, turn em loose.

 

[Dagboi]

I think vodka is making a pretty good argument however tOSU is absolutely stacked with it's best team ever and Penn State has 5 returning champs. Even with the exceptional recruiting, what are the odds that they have that much fire power when Lee and Warner are RS seniors? Will they still be formidable, yes, but they may at least be beatable. This is just bad timing for you guys because most years I would agree that pulling the shirts makes a lot of sense.

The being said, personally I want to see Lee wrestle this year because that means I get to cheer for him at NCAAs since he one of only a few guys that can knock off Nato. It also means PSU will have one less year of dealing with him when the team race with Iowa might be closer.

Yes, that means that your "stacked teams" will be cannibalizing each other for points and knocking each other out of contention. Throw in a solid OKSt team, a few Arizona gamers, an up and coming Nebraska stable, plus your rando studs from other teams (suriano, Yianni, massa, licek, micic, coon, etc) and suddenly the points needed to take it all is getting lower and lower, potentially.

Five potential finalists and 8 potential AA's for the Hawks (don't sleep on Gunther and Wilcke when the tough get going) and we are absolutely right there in the mix. Enough with the Negative Nellies and Debbie Downers, already.

 

[Mike_a_TetonValley]

125 Lee possible in the finals (Top 3 for Sure)
133 Sure would like to see Murin make the cut/Laux hopefully Rd of 12
141 Happle
149 Sorensen (finals)
157 Kememer (finals)
165 Marinelli (All American for sure)
174 Gunther (could place)
184 Downey in the finals (top 3 for sure)
197 Wilke All American for sure/ Warner possibly a top 4 placer
Hwt Stoll Top 4 for sure

Lee has to wrestle if healthy enough. Go Hawks!!!

 

[grapplefann]

Predicting 1,2,3,4 years down the road is a fool's game. That assumes our situation will be assured and other teams will stand still. They won't. None of us has the algorithm that will set us up for a sure title.

As El Dub said...put your best 10 guys on the mat. If they're not healthy, they will know it, team doctors will know it, TnT will know it. Other than that, turn em loose.

You convinced me. Waiting for that future title opportunity with a team that has as many holes as the Hawks have will only guarantee mediocrity this year and maybe next.

 

[minnhawkeye]

Long ways to go..Time to fix a few things yet..I do believe Happel will get 141 when all is said and done..He needs more work with Rutt If Lee goes then start Stick with Rutt and maybe next year he could man 133.
If Lee feels he is healed and his parents agree then I say let him go...Warner needs some work and I don't believe he would get that much more than Wilke this year.
Really Penn State could maybe even win with the studs they have on jv and Beard going to gray shirt. With what they have coming in won't be any better in3-4 years..So I just feel if
the Lee's feel Spencer is ok let him go. Will have a hole at 133 but Happel could win a couple. Put our best team on the mat...Time to show if a freshman is ready and healthy and wants to free him up..Hate all this typing talking face to face easier cause all I do when typing is well kinda messed up