Changed My Mind on Lee’s Red Shirt

[24 so far]

Gawd, who even needs Penn St, tOSU, and OK St fans on here to run us down and poor-mouth our chances? We've got our own fans doing it for them! It's one thing to be strategic, and one to be pragmatic, and one to be Iowa humble, and one to keep expectations to a dull roar while kids are working out the kinks early in a season....but it's a whole 'nother situation to naysay our kids come tournament time and basically say we don't believe in them as fans, or in their ability to outperform what the rest of the nation WHO ARE NOT HAWK FANS expect of them.

Whatever happened to believing in our coaches, and in iron sharpens iron, and in our kids' ability to put a fire in their belly in March and tear through a bracket? My gawd, I never heard such a bunch of negative nellies and debbie downers in all my born days. Try having a little faith in the three to four dozen men in that wrestling room, that they are going to do what it takes to bring back our Hawkeye pride and restore respect for doing it the Iowa way and Gable way.

Good news is, even you Debbie Downers are going to be overwhelmed by the evidence on the mat, as the mercury plummets and the snow starts to fall. We'll welcome you back into the faith with open arms and have a helluva good time together in March.

GO HAWKS

I'm all for people being optimistic, but there is a point where delusional enters the fray. (every year there are many projecting Big Ten Titles for the Football and Basketball teams, and we don't so much as sniff it - reality is a bitch sometimes).

Until Brands teams overperform at Nationals, there is little reason to believe they will. For me at least, you have to prove it, and as a team that hasn't happened in a long while. I am all for starting a trend the other way, preferably this year.

 

[Kwoodhawk]

Who needs to relax? Irony. Ignore me if my posts bother you.

Irony..Got it. Good suggestion.

I read everyone's post. No one on ignore.

I just like to read new, different ideas now and then rather than one idea over and over and over and..........

 

[slushhead]

How is next year relevant? Because he said he thinks Iowa has the potential to be better next year than this year. Which is why I was curious his projected points.

I disagree that we're better next year than this year as we lose Sorensen and PD3. Gain Cass and Brands who won't be in the lineup next season.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

Irony..Got it. Good suggestion.

I read everyone's post. No one on ignore.

I just like to read new, different ideas now and then rather than one idea over and over and over and..........

Then go read another thread?? This thread is about redshirts. That's the topic being discussed. Or go read another forum? Or ignore me?

And go reread the post of mine that you quoted. It's Warner vs. Wilcke. Not the idea of pulling shirts and going for a title this year.

 

[pablow]

I'm all for people being optimistic, but there is a point where delusional enters the fray. (every year there are many projecting Big Ten Titles for the Football and Basketball teams, and we don't so much as sniff it - reality is a bitch sometimes).

Until Brands teams overperform at Nationals, there is little reason to believe they will. For me at least, you have to prove it, and as a team that hasn't happened in a long while. I am all for starting a trend the other way, preferably this year.

I agree that our football and basketball fans are delusional. Our wrestling program has won 23 national titles in the last 45 years - I think we will win again and I don't think I'm dreaming. This is not going to be the year, but it's coming.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Gawd, who even needs Penn St, tOSU, and OK St fans on here to run us down and poor-mouth our chances? We've got our own fans doing it for them! It's one thing to be strategic, and one to be pragmatic, and one to be Iowa humble, and one to keep expectations to a dull roar while kids are working out the kinks early in a season....but it's a whole 'nother situation to naysay our kids come tournament time and basically say we don't believe in them as fans, or in their ability to outperform what the rest of the nation WHO ARE NOT HAWK FANS expect of them.

Whatever happened to believing in our coaches, and in iron sharpens iron, and in our kids' ability to put a fire in their belly in March and tear through a bracket? My gawd, I never heard such a bunch of negative nellies and debbie downers in all my born days. Try having a little faith in the three to four dozen men in that wrestling room, that they are going to do what it takes to bring back our Hawkeye pride and restore respect for doing it the Iowa way and Gable way.

Good news is, even you Debbie Downers are going to be overwhelmed by the evidence on the mat, as the mercury plummets and the snow starts to fall. We'll welcome you back into the faith with open arms and have a helluva good time together in March.

GO HAWKS

People want to believe. The problem is there isn't a lot of evidence that as a team there hasn't been a great deal of 'fire in the belly, tear through a bracket in March' evidence. P$U has that reputation now. Iowa needs to restablish that. To peak in March, have people wrestle to and above seed more consistently. The energy is there it just needs to be tapped.

 

[dicemen99]

Slush with the PSA of the day for the HR.

 

[augiehawk]

I'm not sure that this year and next year's chances aren't about the same. Next year we lose Sorensen and Downey (assuming he wrestles). We replace them with Lugo and Wilke at 84 and Warner at 97. Lugo will probably not match Sorensen but with Wilke at 84 and Warner at a cleared out 97, would that not come close to equaling the points we get from those two weights this year? Then add in Murin (with a year of development and strength) and it may be a wash.

I'm all for leaving it up to the wrestler. I think Lee could go right now but the difference between Warner and Wilke this year may not be that great. And Murin does not seem to be a major upgrade at 141.

Hoping we can get a transfer or something at 33 next year and then I like our lineup even better than this year.

 

[MSU158]

Gawd, who even needs Penn St, tOSU, and OK St fans on here to run us down and poor-mouth our chances? We've got our own fans doing it for them! It's one thing to be strategic, and one to be pragmatic, and one to be Iowa humble, and one to keep expectations to a dull roar while kids are working out the kinks early in a season....but it's a whole 'nother situation to naysay our kids come tournament time and basically say we don't believe in them as fans, or in their ability to outperform what the rest of the nation WHO ARE NOT HAWK FANS expect of them.

Whatever happened to believing in our coaches, and in iron sharpens iron, and in our kids' ability to put a fire in their belly in March and tear through a bracket? My gawd, I never heard such a bunch of negative nellies and debbie downers in all my born days. Try having a little faith in the three to four dozen men in that wrestling room, that they are going to do what it takes to bring back our Hawkeye for pride and restore respect for doing it the Iowa way and Gable way.

Good news is, even you Debbie Downers are going to be overwhelmed by the evidence on the mat, as the mercury plummets and the snow starts to fall. We'll welcome you back into the faith with open arms and have a helluva good time together in March.

GO HAWKS

I watch a TON of matches. In fact, I would say with full confidence that very few, if any, that post on here watch as much as I do, let alone more.

With that said, I am a HUGE fan of Marinelli. However, he has juggernauts like IMar, Joseph and Massa to navigate let alone a guy named Valencia that tossed him around the mat last year. He still has to deal with looking a bit undersized for the weight and, oh, there is also an injury he is contending with. My giving him 5th place points navigating that field is a testament to how much I like him.

As far as Nevills goes, after Snyder and Coon, he has PROVEN he can beat the remaining best at the weight. He has beaten both Hall and Kasper and right now has a very compelling argument for being considered a clear #3 at the weight. I held his points down a bit because I still think Hall or Kasper could take a match from him and if Dhesi finally appears he could be a great 2nd tier spoiler. Also, 285 doesn't go 13 or so deep like 165. In fact, after the top 6(Stoll being 6) it drops off considerably. No offense to Mike Hughes, but he isn't close that group and headlines the best of the rest.

 

[Rustys Dad]

Personally, I like to live in the now. No rear-view mirror ... and no trying to project the future, and no worrying about what others are doing ... I say Lee and Warner - unleash them both and let the chips fall where they may ...

 

[TNTwrestle]

Gawd, who even needs Penn St, tOSU, and OK St fans on here to run us down and poor-mouth our chances? We've got our own fans doing it for them! It's one thing to be strategic, and one to be pragmatic, and one to be Iowa humble, and one to keep expectations to a dull roar while kids are working out the kinks early in a season....but it's a whole 'nother situation to naysay our kids come tournament time and basically say we don't believe in them as fans, or in their ability to outperform what the rest of the nation WHO ARE NOT HAWK FANS expect of them.

Whatever happened to believing in our coaches, and in iron sharpens iron, and in our kids' ability to put a fire in their belly in March and tear through a bracket? My gawd, I never heard such a bunch of negative nellies and debbie downers in all my born days. Try having a little faith in the three to four dozen men in that wrestling room, that they are going to do what it takes to bring back our Hawkeye pride and restore respect for doing it the Iowa way and Gable way.

Good news is, even you Debbie Downers are going to be overwhelmed by the evidence on the mat, as the mercury plummets and the snow starts to fall. We'll welcome you back into the faith with open arms and have a helluva good time together in March.

GO HAWKS

Great pep talk! This is how I've always felt about the Hawks. Unfortunately, I haven't seen much of this the last 15 years or so. We've had a lot of late-season injuries that have hampered this, and had several years when we seemed to peak early and looked tired at the B1Gs and NCAAs and have not looked better at the end of the year. These things have made it difficult for most fans to share your unbridled optimism.

I have faith in our coaches and team. I believe they have figured it out, and I want you to be completely right. I am going to start right now saying nothing if I can't say something positive (not that I feel like I've said a lot negative). If people say negative things that I agree with, I'm going to bite my tongue and let it play out. I'm not going to be a Debbie Downer or Negative Nellie.

I really do want to believe we have some under-ranked guys, and some that will turn it on late in the year. but we'll have to wait and see. And maybe this will be the year that PSU doesn't get all the breaks in seedings, and all the favorable draws.

GO HAWKS, let's surprise everybody!

 

[MSU158]

I would like to ask an honest question hoping for an honest answer. How many of those saying they want the redshirts pulled are saying so based on "fan only" interests? Meaning, are you saying so because you want to watch them be the best they can be this year without truly caring how it effects how good they are years from now?

I understand that, as a fan, you want to see your team do as good as they can every season. But, I honestly am only giving my perspective on what I think is best for the team going forward. Iowa is poised to make a 4 year run and having those 4 years of eligibility for Lee and Warner is paramount for Iowa to have a chance to level the playing field with PSU going forward. Plus, the only need weight could be 133 for some time if Murin continues to develop at 141 and Nelson proves to be the guy at 174.

Starting next year you could have:
125:4 years of a monster
133: Major ?
141:4 years of a solid AA in Murin
149:2 years of a solid AA in Lugo
157:2 years of a Finalist/Champ in Kemerer
165:3 years of a solid AA in Marinelli
(174 and 184 are the only other weights than 133 where there could be some concern)
174:3 years of Young fighting to AA with the chance that Nelson steps in and contends for 4 years.
184:2 years of a solid AA, IF Wilcke proves he can manage the weight.
197:See 125
285:5 years of a solid AA with Stoll transitioning to Cass.

Honestly, I don't see a major need to go crazy recruiting with this lineup. However, I think the new mentality the Brands have shown along with the success this team will have will pay future dividends. Go all out to get a 133 and keep an eye open for 174-184. The future is bright, just have PATIENCE!

 

[TNTwrestle]

How are there still people making the claim that Wilcke = Warner.

Warner has already won the head to head. Warner dominated Miklus. Do you see Wilcke beating Miklus let alone dominate?

Everyone did a 180 after Warner's loss at UNI. One bad match. Let's wait and see how he does at Midlands. No reason to make the decision to pull or not pull shirt not. It's pretty obvious the coaches mindset is wait til Midlands as well.

Warner > Wilcke. I like Wilcke and think he can AA at 97 this season. I think Warner can high AA and even make the finals this season.

Vodka,

Up until yesterday I don't remember having a problem with any of your posts (I might have, I just don't remember). Like Kwood, I got sick of you trying to cram your OPINION down everyone's throats as undisputable fact yesterday. I'm sure I aggravated you as much as you did me yesterday, and you obviously aren't going to see my side any more than I'm going to see yours, so let's just call a truce. Let's agree to disagree and move on. I do implore you though to quit beating us over the head with your expertise. We all get how you feel, and telling us ten more times is not going to make us understand it better. I promise not to push my agenda either.

Let's let the coaches and athletes work this out, and hope they get it right. We'll never know who was right, or if they get it right, because once a decision is made, we won't see how the other way would have played out. I guess we'll get some kind of answer about Warner and Wilcke at Midlands. If Warner wins a close match, or Wilcke somehow wins, I'll feel justified. If Warner blows him out, I'll concede your superiorty of prediction.

Lets be friends. GO HAWKS!

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

I would like to ask an honest question hoping for an honest answer. How many of those saying they want the redshirts pulled are saying so based on "fan only" interests? Meaning, are you saying so because you want to watch them be the best they can be this year without truly caring how it effects how good they are years from now?

I understand that, as a fan, you want to see your team do as good as they can every season. But, I honestly am only giving my perspective on what I think is best for the team going forward. Iowa is poised to make a 4 year run and having those 4 years of eligibility for Lee and Warner is paramount for Iowa to have a chance to level the playing field with PSU going forward. Plus, the only need weight could be 133 for some time if Murin continues to develop at 141 and Nelson proves to be the guy at 174.

Starting next year you could have:
125:4 years of a monster
133: Major ?
141:4 years of a solid AA in Murin
149:2 years of a solid AA in Lugo
157:2 years of a Finalist/Champ in Kemerer
165:3 years of a solid AA in Marinelli
(174 and 184 are the only other weights than 133 where there could be some concern)
174:3 years of Young fighting to AA with the chance that Nelson steps in and contends for 4 years.
184:2 years of a solid AA, IF Wilcke proves he can manage the weight.
197:See 125
285:5 years of a solid AA with Stoll transitioning to Cass.

Honestly, I don't see a major need to go crazy recruiting with this lineup. However, I think the new mentality the Brands have shown along with the success this team will have will pay future dividends. Go all out to get a 133 and keep an eye open for 174-184. The future is bright, just have PATIENCE!

The reason I'm pro pull shirts (depending on how Warner/Lee do at Midlands) is because I see this season as more winnable than the following 2 seasons.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

Vodka,

Up until yesterday I don't remember having a problem with any of your posts (I might have, I just don't remember). Like Kwood, I got sick of you trying to cram your OPINION down everyone's throats as undisputable fact yesterday. I'm sure I aggravated you as much as you did me yesterday, and you obviously aren't going to see my side any more than I'm going to see yours, so let's just call a truce. Let's agree to disagree and move on. I do implore you though to quit beating us over the head with your expertise. We all get how you feel, and telling us ten more times is not going to make us understand it better. I promise not to push my agaenda either.

Let's let the coaches and athletes work this out, and hope they get it right. We'll never know who was right, or if they get it right, because once a decision is made, we won't see how the other way would have played out. I guess we'll get some kind of answer about Warner and Wilcke at Midlands. If Warner wins a close match, or Wilcke somehow wins, I'll feel justified. If Warner blows him out, I'll concede your superiorty of prediction.

Lets be friends. GO HAWKS!

Everything I say is strictly my opinion. Doesn't make it wrong or right. You're welcome to disagree.

No hostility. I'm not trying to force my opinion down anyone's throat. I'm just responding to posts. I'm not out there making threads trying to promote this idea.

And at the end of the day all of our opinions on shirt or no shirt mean fk all. It's just fun fan discussion. The coaches/athletes will make the decision.

No need for anyone to get offended/insulted.

 

[Dagboi]

I would like to ask an honest question hoping for an honest answer. How many of those saying they want the redshirts pulled are saying so based on "fan only" interests? Meaning, are you saying so because you want to watch them be the best they can be this year without truly caring how it effects how good they are years from now?

I understand that, as a fan, you want to see your team do as good as they can every season. But, I honestly am only giving my perspective on what I think is best for the team going forward. Iowa is poised to make a 4 year run and having those 4 years of eligibility for Lee and Warner is paramount for Iowa to have a chance to level the playing field with PSU going forward. Plus, the only need weight could be 133 for some time if Murin continues to develop at 141 and Nelson proves to be the guy at 174.

Starting next year you could have:
125:4 years of a monster
133: Major ?
141:4 years of a solid AA in Murin
149:2 years of a solid AA in Lugo
157:2 years of a Finalist/Champ in Kemerer
165:3 years of a solid AA in Marinelli
(174 and 184 are the only other weights than 133 where there could be some concern)
174:3 years of Young fighting to AA with the chance that Nelson steps in and contends for 4 years.
184:2 years of a solid AA, IF Wilcke proves he can manage the weight.
197:See 125
285:5 years of a solid AA with Stoll transitioning to Cass.

Honestly, I don't see a major need to go crazy recruiting with this lineup. However, I think the new mentality the Brands have shown along with the success this team will have will pay future dividends. Go all out to get a 133 and keep an eye open for 174-184. The future is bright, just have PATIENCE!

Spencer wants to wrestle. The worst thing for his development right now would be a year away from competitive wrestling at an elite level. He has shown for five years running that he can roll with anyone you put in front of him. He should be the favorite to win the title any year he is on the mat. He will be the favorite to win this year if he goes. A lock.

He also has his sights set higher, on an Olympic career and on a lasting freestyle career. Wrestling this year gets him farther down the road toward those goals, and more quickly. I think that is the primary factor driving his desire to wrestle this year. He prefers freestyle to folkstyle, as he's said on several occasions. Who are we to tell him that his long-term, elite career goals should take a back seat to Hawkeye team goals in 2022, especially when it's highly debatable (see: every thread we've started on the topic) that the two are even in conflict. I and some others here believe that our Hawkeye team goals and Spencer's individual goals are perfectly aligned: bust heads for the next four years in the NCAA's and become the face of the Hawkeye Wrestling Club on the international stage for another 10-15 years after that.

Spencer's is the only shirt I feel strongly about. The rest, I just haven't seen enough evidence either way to feel confident making a call yet. More to the point, who gives a damn what I think? It's Spencer's, Larry's, Tom and Terry's call, and I believe they are as smart as anyone about stuff like this. That's why he will wrestle this year. Can't wait.

 

[Inspiteofourselves]

I'll throw in my two cents:

If Lee and his family want him to wrestle let him wrestle. Why? bc he could quite possibly need this shirt later and it would be a shame if he couldnt wrestle a post season bc he doesnt have a shirt. Also lets not forget Daton Fix is red shirting this year. I'm not saying Lee can't beat him but he will be his toughest opponent through out their careers. Im a big advocate for wrestling freshman if and only if the wrestler and family are on board. I honestly think if Sorensen wrestles as a true freshman he has a national title.

As for Warner, my opinion is to keep his shirt on unless PD3 dont come to town. Sure Warner can beat Wilcke and most likely place higher but I dont think its worth a whole year of losing one or the other when we can use both for all 4 years.

 

[1stplacehawk]

Until Brands teams overperform at Nationals, there is little reason to believe they will. For me at least, you have to prove it, and as a team that hasn't happened in a long while. I am all for starting a trend the other way, preferably this year.

The team wrestled quite well at nationals last year. Most points we've scored since our last title, and that was without Stoll yet again.

 

[MSU158]

Spencer wants to wrestle. The worst thing for his development right now would be a year away from competitive wrestling at an elite level. He has shown for five years running that he can roll with anyone you put in front of him. He should be the favorite to win the title any year he is on the mat. He will be the favorite to win this year if he goes. A lock.

He also has his sights set higher, on an Olympic career and on a lasting freestyle career. Wrestling this year gets him farther down the road toward those goals, and more quickly. I think that is the primary factor driving his desire to wrestle this year. Who are we to tell him that his long-term, elite career goals should take a back seat to Hawkeye team goals in 2022, especially when it's highly debatable (see: every thread we've started on the topic) that the two are even in conflict. I and some others here believe that our Hawkeye team goals and Spencer's individual goals are perfectly aligned: bust heads for the next four years in the NCAA's and become the face of the Hawkeye Wrestling Club on the international stage for another 10-15 years after that.

Spencer's is the only shirt I feel strongly about. The rest, I just haven't seen enough evidence either way to feel confident making a call yet. More to the point, who gives a damn what I think? It's Spencer's, Larry's, Tom and Terry's call, and I believe they are as smart as anyone about stuff like this. That's why he will wrestle this year. Can't wait.

Now that part I get. If Spencer really wants to go and there is no convincing him otherwise, than I can see letting him wrestle. Now, that doesn't mean I would want him to, and in my opinion, it hurts the team. But, it is still an individual sport and a happy Lee is a good thing.

Still, all I can say is, "SPENCER DON'T DO IT!!!"

 

[Dagboi]

The team wrestled quite well at nationals last year. Most points we've scored since our last title, and that was without Stoll yet again.

Agreed. And let's not forget how close Gilman and Kemerer were to even more, even though they didn't quite make it to the finals after getting the yips in the semis.

EDITED: Sorry, quarters for Kemerer......still too painful to believe.

 

[MSU158]

Spencer wants to wrestle. The worst thing for his development right now would be a year away from competitive wrestling at an elite level. He has shown for five years running that he can roll with anyone you put in front of him. He should be the favorite to win the title any year he is on the mat. He will be the favorite to win this year if he goes. A lock.

He also has his sights set higher, on an Olympic career and on a lasting freestyle career. Wrestling this year gets him farther down the road toward those goals, and more quickly. I think that is the primary factor driving his desire to wrestle this year. He prefers freestyle to folkstyle, as he's said on several occasions. Who are we to tell him that his long-term, elite career goals should take a back seat to Hawkeye team goals in 2022, especially when it's highly debatable (see: every thread we've started on the topic) that the two are even in conflict. I and some others here believe that our Hawkeye team goals and Spencer's individual goals are perfectly aligned: bust heads for the next four years in the NCAA's and become the face of the Hawkeye Wrestling Club on the international stage for another 10-15 years after that.

Spencer's is the only shirt I feel strongly about. The rest, I just haven't seen enough evidence either way to feel confident making a call yet. More to the point, who gives a damn what I think? It's Spencer's, Larry's, Tom and Terry's call, and I believe they are as smart as anyone about stuff like this. That's why he will wrestle this year. Can't wait.

However, the bolded part I adamantly disagree with. He has the best room of lightweights to practice with, has Terry to mentor, and can still compete in Midlands and inevitably any Freestyle events of his choice. For a vast majority of DI wrestlers, so much of their development simply comes from adapting to the DI student-athlete lifestyle. Not wrestling in the B1G or NCAA's isn't going to hold him back in the LEAST bit!

 

[Dagboi]

Everything I say is strictly my opinion. Doesn't make it wrong or right. You're welcome to disagree.

No hostility. I'm not trying to force my opinion down anyone's throat. I'm just responding to posts. I'm not out there making threads trying to promote this idea.

And at the end of the day all of our opinions on shirt or no shirt mean fk all. It's just fun fan discussion. The coaches/athletes will make the decision.

No need for anyone to get offended/insulted.

Vodka, I find your posts enlightening and helpful. You always contribute something useful, even if just a nice dose of humor or candor. You can't please everyone.

Keep up the good work!

(PS: You also have the best damned avatar in the history of avatars......jealous!)

 

[Dagboi]

However, the bolded part I adamantly disagree with. He has the best room of lightweights to practice with, has Terry to mentor, and can still compete in Midlands and inevitably any Freestyle events of his choice. For a vast majority of DI wrestlers, so much of their development simply comes from adapting to the DI student-athlete lifestyle. Not wrestling in the B1G or NCAA's isn't going to hold him back in the LEAST bit!

Not the same. He needs to test his mettle in brackets, and hard brackets. I'm not underestimating the development gold he has in the room with Terry/Tom/Gilman/McDonough/Clark/Dennis/Delgado, etc....I'm saying that a major part of his development will come from the mental side of competition, and the best place for that learning is in live, trying-to-rip-out-your-guts-and-feed-them-to-you competition at the most elite level available.

Physical talent, speed, strength, and technique are not what sets the ceiling on an athlete like Spencer Lee. He has those in spades. What sets the ceiling is his mental toughness and mindset when the going get tough and the stakes are as high as possible. (like 14,000 screaming fans depending on you to bring home a team win that night, or like the weight of a national title on the line). His development will be paced by his mental game, and the sooner he has a platform to work on that aspect, the better it will be for his long-term success.

FREE THE GOSH-DERN LEE!

 

[MVPFAN]

Spencer wants to wrestle. The worst thing for his development right now would be a year away from competitive wrestling at an elite level. He has shown for five years running that he can roll with anyone you put in front of him. He should be the favorite to win the title any year he is on the mat. He will be the favorite to win this year if he goes. A lock.

He also has his sights set higher, on an Olympic career and on a lasting freestyle career. Wrestling this year gets him farther down the road toward those goals, and more quickly. I think that is the primary factor driving his desire to wrestle this year. He prefers freestyle to folkstyle, as he's said on several occasions. Who are we to tell him that his long-term, elite career goals should take a back seat to Hawkeye team goals in 2022, especially when it's highly debatable (see: every thread we've started on the topic) that the two are even in conflict. I and some others here believe that our Hawkeye team goals and Spencer's individual goals are perfectly aligned: bust heads for the next four years in the NCAA's and become the face of the Hawkeye Wrestling Club on the international stage for another 10-15 years after that.

Spencer's is the only shirt I feel strongly about. The rest, I just haven't seen enough evidence either way to feel confident making a call yet. More to the point, who gives a damn what I think? It's Spencer's, Larry's, Tom and Terry's call, and I believe they are as smart as anyone about stuff like this. That's why he will wrestle this year. Can't wait.

I don't think anyone is suggesting he not wrestle if he wants to. If he wants to go then go for it. No one but maybe a Dr is going to say no.

 

[Dagboi]

I watch a TON of matches. In fact, I would say with full confidence that very few, if any, that post on here watch as much as I do, let alone more.

With that said, I am a HUGE fan of Marinelli. However, he has juggernauts like IMar, Joseph and Massa to navigate let alone a guy named Valencia that tossed him around the mat last year. He still has to deal with looking a bit undersized for the weight and, oh, there is also an injury he is contending with. My giving him 5th place points navigating that field is a testament to how much I like him.

All the middleweights have great challenges right now, of course. But given what we saw vs Richie Lewis the other night, I'm keeping an open mind about Bull's ability to roll with the best.

Of that group, only IMAR keeps me up at night. Massa just got handled by Wick from Wisconsin (also good), looking entirely beatable and even hesitant. Valencia the Lesser is on the way down, not up, this year, looking lackluster and distracted. Joseph....meh. I know he turned it on something good at the tourney last year, but he has never struck me as the unbeatable type. Besides his two losses to IMAR last year, he was also taken down by Jordan the Lesser and the kid from Stanford early in the year. Let's just say he was happy/lucky as hell to catch IMAR in that pin last year.

I accept your premise that Bull has a tough road ahead. He's also putting together a nice little track record that shows he's up to the task. Me, I'll be wearing my Optimism Pants every time he goes out.

#oldheadFTW!

 

[TNTwrestle]

All the middleweights have great challenges right now, of course. But given what we saw vs Richie Lewis the other night, I'm keeping an open mind about Bull's ability to roll with the best.

Of that group, only IMAR keeps me up at night. Massa just got handled by Wick from Wisconsin (also good), looking entirely beatable and even hesitant. Valencia the Lesser is on the way down, not up, this year, looking lackluster and distracted. Joseph....meh. I know he turned it on something good at the tourney last year, but he has never struck me as the unbeatable type. Besides his two losses to IMAR last year, he was also taken down by Jordan the Lesser and the kid from Stanford early in the year. Let's just say he was happy/lucky as hell to catch IMAR in that pin last year.

I accept your premise that Bull has a tough road ahead. He's also putting together a nice little track record that shows he's up to the task. Me, I'll be wearing my Optimism Pants every time he goes out.

#oldheadFTW!

I think Valencia is cutting too much, he looks tired and seems to have no gas tank. He needs to be up at 174, but has a pretty good teammate there. I think Massa might be in the same boat, or nursing an injury. I haven't seen him wrestle enough to pinpoint what, but something is wrong, that may or may not be fixed by March. Cenzo was lucky last year and would be my best bet of the PSU guys of not repeating. IMAR is the only one of the favorites that I don't see losing, and he has proved a few times that he can be beat.
I like the Bull's chances of a high finish. Now that we know what his issue was, I think he'll be alright.

GO HAWKS!

 

[Flying_Tiger]

How is next year relevant? Because he said he thinks Iowa has the potential to be better next year than this year. Which is why I was curious his projected points.

I disagree that we're better next year than this year as we lose Sorensen and PD3. Gain Cass and Brands who won't be in the lineup next season.

Considering your opinion that this years team would be better then next with Lee and Warner in the lineup, I think you would be making a more compelling argument if you were advocating redshirts next year instead of this season. That being said, it would be awfully hard to put the genie back in the bottle if they go this year.

 

[el dub]

Considering your opinion that this years team would be better then next with Lee and Warner in the lineup, I think you would be making a more compelling argument if you were advocating redshirts next year instead of this season. That being said, it would be awfully hard to put the genie back in the bottle if they go this year.

Injuries happen. I’d much rather see an elite wrestler save the red shirt for something unexpected rather than automatically sit as a frosh.

And if no injury is sustained, that frees up a scholarship a year sooner for the next talent we want to land.

 

[JohnBasedow]

I didn’t read most of this thread, but all I have to say is if a kid wants to go and he is the best wrestler on the team at the weight class then let him go. Especially when it is an elite wrestler like Lee that has proven to be one of the if the best wrestlers in the world.

Is a team title in the cards this year? Maybe, maybe not. It would take a lot of things going on our favor for that to occur. I kind of relate this decision to playing poker. If our staff likes our guys and thinks we have good shot then let’s push our chips in the middle of the table and see if we indeed have the best hand. If we don’t then fold and live to play another day, but don’t be surprised if someone else perceives that as weakness and tries to use that against you later.

 

[rossel 33]

My 1 cent.... everyone ought to relax, and trust in the decision making by the coaches, wrestlers and medical staff. They are the ones who, being on the "inside" know best and far more than we do. That is reason enough to not be so dogmatic about who should do what.

chill...

 

[LaxHawk174]

I don't think anyone is suggesting he not wrestle if he wants to. If he wants to go then go for it. No one but maybe a Dr is going to say no.

Hasn't the Dr already said yes at this point?

 

[nitlion6]

The team wrestled quite well at nationals last year. Most points we've scored since our last title, and that was without Stoll yet again.

Yes, you guys I thought wrestled a strong tournament.

 

[nitlion6]

Hilarious that you have Marinelli only scoring 11 but Nevills scoring "a dozen at least".....you need to watch more matches, brah.....

Not sure what the hilarious part is. If Nick finishes 3rd that is 13.5 without any bonus. Marinelli with a good tournament probably finishes 5th which is 11 without bonus.

It seems one of you has a pretty decent understanding of what you are discussing.

 

[Good30]

If a kid has to wear a big ol clunker of a knee brace to compete and has a redshirt to take then he should take it. Cant remember too many who have wore a brace and not missed some time here and there after tweaking something somewhere during the season.

 

[24 so far]

The team wrestled quite well at nationals last year. Most points we've scored since our last title, and that was without Stoll yet again.

Sorenson got mauled and then stuck, with a guy he's clearly been toe to toe with previously, and Gilman got beat by Cruz. Kemmerer the 2 seed got beat by the 7 seed, and the 7 seed lost the next round.

I'm not trying to disparage any of these great Hawkeyes, but that's not overperforming in my book.

 

[Dagboi]

Not sure what the hilarious part is. If Nick finishes 3rd that is 13.5 without any bonus. Marinelli with a good tournament probably finishes 5th which is 11 without bonus.

It seems one of you has a pretty decent understanding of what you are discussing.

Nevills has a very low ceiling, in my opinion. He crapped the bed against inferior competition in last year's tournament, and I full expect him to do it again this year. Sure, he had Kroell's number all last year, but outside of that, who did he do well against that was highly ranked?

<crickets>

He doesn't wrestle anyone for us to know....(other than losing to Snyder and Medberry). Couldn't beat Medberry, very close wins over other guys in the 20's....I know its HWT and the matches are bear hugs and all, but show me where he has demonstrated that he's capable of a top-3 performance. Bull has a much higher ceiling, and I believe he will be testing it in a matter of months, not years.

Just my opinion! But I know the glass is always half full when you have that stupid ugly blue singlet on.....you invariably will get the Notre Dame ranking just because of the laundry you're wearing.

 

[rcamp67]

Sorenson got mauled and then stuck, with a guy he's clearly been toe to toe with previously, and Gilman got beat by Cruz. Kemmerer the 2 seed got beat by the 7 seed, and the 7 seed lost the next round.

I'm not trying to disparage any of these great Hawkeyes, but that's not overperforming in my book.

That's just cherry picking those that may have underperformed and it's disingenuous. Look at the team as a whole. You also have to include Gunther and Cash and Clark. Let's try to be real and honest on these debates

 

[artradley]

Sorenson got mauled and then stuck, with a guy he's clearly been toe to toe with previously, and Gilman got beat by Cruz. Kemmerer the 2 seed got beat by the 7 seed, and the 7 seed lost the next round.

I'm not trying to disparage any of these great Hawkeyes, but that's not overperforming in my book.

That's just cherry picking those that may have underperformed and it's disingenuous. Look at the team as a whole. You also have to include Gunther and Cash and Clark. Let's try to be real and honest on these debates

Having a couple of guys surprisingly make rd 12 does not make up for multiple ranked guys finishing below seed. More wrestlers finished behind expectations than ahead of them, and the team scored fewer points than projected. And that has been the case for several years.

 

[1stplacehawk]

Sorenson got mauled and then stuck, with a guy he's clearly been toe to toe with previously, and Gilman got beat by Cruz. Kemmerer the 2 seed got beat by the 7 seed, and the 7 seed lost the next round.

I'm not trying to disparage any of these great Hawkeyes, but that's not overperforming in my book.

It wasn't flawless, but we had a solid tournament. Our best in years. Sorensen just isn't as good as Rethorford. He got close to beating him once, but that has been the exception not the rule. Gilman and Kemerer both took a tough loss but battled back for 3rd. Clark, Gunther, and Wilcke all did better than expected. Meyer, Brooks, and Carton all pretty much held serve.

 

[artradley]

Sorenson got mauled and then stuck, with a guy he's clearly been toe to toe with previously, and Gilman got beat by Cruz. Kemmerer the 2 seed got beat by the 7 seed, and the 7 seed lost the next round.

I'm not trying to disparage any of these great Hawkeyes, but that's not overperforming in my book.

It wasn't flawless, but we had a solid tournament. Our best in years. Sorensen just isn't as good as Rethorford. He got close to beating him once, but that has been the exception not the rule. Gilman and Kemerer both took a tough loss but battled back for 3rd. Clark, Gunther, and Wilcke all did better than expected. Meyer, Brooks, and Carton all pretty much held serve.

The team did okay, but we are talking about how well they did compared to expectations, and I don't recall the numbers but I recall our total points came in below projected.

Yes, we did better in points than lately, and other than injury I think we prolly had fewer disappointments than lately. And having Kem place 3rd was huge, even if he was the 2 seed.

But this has not been a team to meet or exceed expectations at Nationals.