Christian Vital puts Iowa in final 5

[Scott559]

As I said I hope I am wrong. However, I also think many fans are quick to think a player is the next "big thing" based on their PTL performance, especially when said player didn't even start on his HS team. Granted it was Oak Hill, but at the same time Oak Hill is known for producing college ready players....but he is still young and a lot can happen but IMO I would not surprised not disappointed if we here soon he is transferring

I have no idea if Fleming is going to be a good player at Iowa, Again, I just think many people are just way too quick to write players off, I honestly believe that many on this board would have written a player like Kenny Arnold off after his freshman season when he saw spot duty and averaged 2 pts a game. Some players develop quickly, Some not so much. You hear time and time again how players improve the most between the freshman and Sophomore year. Baer looked like a totally different player, Perhaps some of these young guys can as well.

 

[33hawkfan]

Correct, there were obviously reasons.

But in no way should it be assumed that the reasons were that the " better" player did not redshirt.

Most feel it's the opposite, the ones with more upside were probably redshirted.

Yep, and I'm sure there's a lot of advantages to having an extra year to develop, but burning your redshirt year also makes it a lot less likely those guys transfer if things don't work out exactly right for them next year, which I'm sure the coaching staff is very aware of but would obviously never mention.

 

[Ihawkhoops]

It would be interesting to know what Fran thought he was going to get out of Williams, Fleming, and Ellingson. The PT investment in Ellingson early paid 0 dividends once conference play started. Defensively, I don't see Ellingson or Fleming ever being able to play man or create their own shot. I would think both would be minimum requirements for a starter, so they will have to compete at the 3 point specialist role? If either was a 3 or 4, you could likely find a match up that would not expose them, but the 2 spot does not afford this opportunity. Fran can't continue getting little / no production form the 2 spot IMO.

 

[WAHawkeye]

Fleming and Ellingson can not play defense in space. Athletic guards make them appear as statues in the open court. It appears that neither will overcome this deficiency by becoming go-to 3-point shooters. Hutton or Moss have yet to play so any statements about them is simply conjecture.

 

[RocknRollface]

I'm not a big fan of Flemming so far but he's clearly a better athlete than Ellingson.

Would I be upset if either transferred, not at all, but saying Flemming will never be able to play defense in the big ten is just idiotic.

 

[Psyclone]

I wouldn't be in a rush to put Baer on scholarship, he probably deserves it but I don't see him transferring if we don't give him a full ride. Find some donor to come up with some academic partial ride for him or something and call it a day.

I don't think you can give partial scholarships in men's basketball.

Edit: Here's a link - http://www.scholarshipstats.com/ncaalimits.html

 

[shoot_the_three]

I wouldn't mind if both Ellingson and Uhl left.

Why would you want Uhl to leave?

 

[HawkLogic]

Fleming and Ellingson can not play defense in space. Athletic guards make them appear as statues in the open court. It appears that neither will overcome this deficiency by becoming go-to 3-point shooters. Hutton or Moss have yet to play so any statements about them is simply conjecture.

Watching the Kansas-Villanova I see a lot of guards that can shoot, play defense, make FTs, and take it to the rack. I don't see anyone that has a game that resembles Flemming, Ellingson, Clemmons, Gesell.

 

[WAHawkeye]

With respect to Fleming, the fact that he was behind Ellingson in the rotation speaks volumes.

 

[Ihawkhoops]

After watching this weekend's games, two things really stood out. 1) How little we got from our guards. Lots of points scored by guards from the perimeter or penetration on their own. We seem to rely so much on our 'offense' because we don't have these types of play makers. 2) 3-5 have to be athletic. Fran cannot afford to miss athletically if he wants to have a chance to win more than 1 game in March. These guys play above the rim, rebound, block / alter shots and get a lot of extra possessions.

Easier said than done, but I will take an under-recruited Olaseni type athlete all day over some kid with big high school / AAU numbers who doesn't play above the rim. A lineup similar to Notre Dame's should not be out of reach for Fran. Granted, ND can recruit nationally and Jackson may be a better PG than we can get, but that is the composition of athletic guys who can shoot that I would like to see here. Auguste was athletic as a freshman and has bulked up and improved his game significantly over the past few years.

 

[RocknRollface]

With respect to Fleming, the fact that he was behind Ellingson in the rotation speaks volumes.

Yes and no. He was out of control offensively tying way to hard to make a flashy play and bad defensively but I think hes got allot more upside than Ellingson. If you watch his highlight videos he does have decent athleticism, he can get up and dunk fairly easily.

I thought it was stupid that people were predicting him to be a major player last summer but I also think its stupid to write him off after one year.

Hes got some game it was just out of control last year and he had no clue how to play D. He reminds me of Jok as a freshman, not shooting wise but where they were mentally. Only focused on offense, no clue on D.

From a body and athleticism type hes allot like Matt Gattens.

I think he will always be a role player but he will not be out of place in the conference either if he learns the right way to play defense.

That being said, I wouldn't be upset if he transferred either.

 

[farfaraway]

Sigh...I see this "wouldn't be upset if he transferred" type of comment which always makes me sad. If someone comes here wanting to be a Hawkeye, I want them to leave 4 years later glad they're a Hawkeye. Otherwise, there has been a failure; and failures frequently are not just by one party. I am "upset" anytime a Hawkeye no longer wants to be one.

 

[Rifler]

Why are people so sold on moss and Hutton but not Fleming? There's a reason two were redshirted and he was not. Fleming will be fine if he stays!!

It's the "two in the bush" syndrome. We haven't seen Moss or Hutton yet so they must obviously be loaded with potential....

 

[Curt Furence]

It's the "two in the bush" syndrome. We haven't seen Moss or Hutton yet so they must obviously be loaded with potential....

The ol backup QB scenario.

 

[Wyominghawk]

The only player I wouldn't be upset to see transfer is Ellingson. Having a full redshirt (granted he was injured) season to learn the system and a full Freshman season where he was passed up by Williams, I don't expect he has enough additional upside to get much playing time. I would disappointed if we saw any of last year's redshirts transfer, or Flemming transfer. They are still unknowns for me. Baer deserves a scholarship, so if anyone transfers he should get it.

 

[RocknRollface]

Sigh...I see this "wouldn't be upset if he transferred" type of comment which always makes me sad. If someone comes here wanting to be a Hawkeye, I want them to leave 4 years later glad they're a Hawkeye. Otherwise, there has been a failure; and failures frequently are not just by one party. I am "upset" anytime a Hawkeye no longer wants to be one.

The reality is sometimes transfers are beneficial to everyone.

 

[bravehawks1]

This is on the freeboard....

But did they have a good week of practice?

 

[unIowa]

Why are people so sold on moss and Hutton but not Fleming? There's a reason two were redshirted and he was not. Fleming will be fine if he stays!!

Typically you don't red shirt a guy if you think you would be better off getting a new recruit in yr 5 vs having a guy around for an extra year. So if you have a good vet group that are going to take most of the minutes you might be better off res shirting your better players.

 

[hooper56]

Any way to know if Vital has any visits scheduled?

 

[DodgerHawki]

It would be interesting to know what Fran thought he was going to get out of Williams, Fleming, and Ellingson. The PT investment in Ellingson early paid 0 dividends once conference play started. Defensively, I don't see Ellingson or Fleming ever being able to play man or create their own shot. I would think both would be minimum requirements for a starter, so they will have to compete at the 3 point specialist role? If either was a 3 or 4, you could likely find a match up that would not expose them, but the 2 spot does not afford this opportunity. Fran can't continue getting little / no production form the 2 spot IMO.

With young players, no coach can be sure what they are going to get out of a guy over the course of a year. The PT investment in Ellingson was for no other reason than he was the guy who was playing the best. And Ellingson's performance was acceptable through the non-con and up to the home game against Purdue (where he scored 8 points). But his game fell off the cliff after that (which does happen to guys).

The biggest issue with guys like Oglesby (and now Ellingson and Fleming) is that so much of their value is tied up in whether or not they can make 3's. Guys (playing guard) who are limited athletically basically are boxed into making jump shots to be contributors. With time and experience, some who aren't great athletes figure out how to get to the basket, be effective defenders, etc. I agree it's too early to write off an Ellingson or Fleming completely, but they have huge strides to make. Hutton and Moss have much more room for growth, just because there's more to their game. They have the requisite size, foot speed and quickness to defend the perimeter and to potentially get their own shot on offense.

One of Fran's jobs (duh) is to manage the roster. If people who will not be in the rotation in 2016-17 or for the next year or 2 leave, that's not the end of the world. In fact, it's many times a healthy situation for all involved. The roster as it's currently configured has a very small chance of being a NCAA tournament team next year, or even the following year (when Jok, our best scorer, is gone and the lone scholarship now open is already going to Conor McCaffery). There is nothing untoward about the bottom of the roster churning and bringing in different players.

 

[BGHAWK]

Any way to know if Vital has any visits scheduled?

This thread is no longer about Vital. Pay attention!

 

[hooper56]

This thread is no longer about Vital. Pay attention!

Crap, I'm sorry. I guess I just got too excited.

 

[flynnhicks03]

Sounds like Fran is going to be Creaning a few guys. I guess he's giving up doing things "the right way".

 

[BGHAWK]

Sounds like Fran is going to be Creaning a few guys. I guess he's giving up doing things "the right way".

Care to elaborate on your inside info, or are you just throwing stuff against the wall and hoping it sticks?

 

[flynnhicks03]

Care to elaborate on your inside info, or are you just throwing stuff against the wall and hoping it sticks?

I have no inside information, but it sounds like at least one and maybe two or three players may be urged to move on in order to make room for (allegedly) better players. When that happened at Iowa State, Hawk fans were outraged. Let me guess, this is different, right?

 

[TKingpin]

I can only speak about Moss. IIRC, because of academics, he didn't get here in the summer. That wasn't just a big hit, but THEE big hit for him being able to be ready to play in the Iowa System this past year. It made a ton of sense to me to have him red-shirt. Can't say anything about Hutton.

Look at Baer. Even Baer himself says that red-shirting and "being the man" on the scout team that everyone has to defend was a big part of his growth since high school. I can only hope that the same things are happening for Moss and Hutton.

 

[MepoDawg#]

I have no inside information, but it sounds like at least one and maybe two or three players may be urged to move on in order to make room for (allegedly) better players. When that happened at Iowa State, Hawk fans were outraged. Let me guess, this is different, right?

It's not necessarily that they brought in a transfer, it's the amount of transfers and some of the transfers past history, at least that's what I take from it. I don't really care one way or the other.

 

[SotaHawk87]

So no, Hutton wasn't redshirted because he was the next Jesus Shuttlesworth.. He just wasn't good enough

 

[backinblack23]

You have to think that Since we lost 4 starters and now that Hutton is leaving playing time is WIDE OPEN. Plus if Jok goes to the NBA We would be losing all five starters. That leaves plenty of minutes for Baer, Uhl, Flemming, Williams, Moss and the incoming freshman. Maybe Fran has some recruits he feels really good about.

 

[flynnhicks03]

It's not necessarily that they brought in a transfer, it's the amount of transfers and some of the transfers past history, at least that's what I take from it. I don't really care one way or the other.

It's worked out pretty well at ISU, don't you think? We are probably taking a step back next year, but so is Iowa. At least we have two Sweet 16s and 5 straight NCAA's to show for it.

 

[GunnerHawk]

My worst nightmare is that Gesell finds a way to get a fifth year of eligibility

The all-time assist leader deserves better. Mike gave Iowa four good years, not great but good years.

 

[Myvue]

I have no inside information, but it sounds like at least one and maybe two or three players may be urged to move on in order to make room for (allegedly) better players. When that happened at Iowa State, Hawk fans were outraged. Let me guess, this is different, right?

You think! Just ask Herky. What goes around comes around Herky. Fran may be deciding to follow ISU's lead and if you aren't Kentucky or a team like them who year after year gets the players with the most potential in the nation you need to bring in some players with some experience. If not Fran will be back to year 2011 in total rebuild. By the time he develops them if he in fact does, they will be graduating and you never get anywhere.

 

[icu81222]

After watching this weekend's games, two things really stood out. 1) How little we got from our guards. Lots of points scored by guards from the perimeter or penetration on their own. We seem to rely so much on our 'offense' because we don't have these types of play makers. 2) 3-5 have to be athletic. Fran cannot afford to miss athletically if he wants to have a chance to win more than 1 game in March. These guys play above the rim, rebound, block / alter shots and get a lot of extra possessions.

Easier said than done, but I will take an under-recruited Olaseni type athlete all day over some kid with big high school / AAU numbers who doesn't play above the rim. A lineup similar to Notre Dame's should not be out of reach for Fran. Granted, ND can recruit nationally and Jackson may be a better PG than we can get, but that is the composition of athletic guys who can shoot that I would like to see here. Auguste was athletic as a freshman and has bulked up and improved his game significantly over the past few years.

Also, ND had a white PG that was better than any 1 or 2 Iowa had. That kid was extremely quick and had great handles. Very good penetrator.

 

[Ihawkhoops]

Also, ND had a white PG that was better than any 1 or 2 Iowa had. That kid was extremely quick and had great handles. Very good penetrator.

Agree and would wager the kid played against higher level competition in high school. Gesell is legit athletically from my perspective, maybe a couple more inches would help, but his shot never materialized. We could work with a PG like Gesell IF we had a real 2 and post who could score. Gesell scored a million points in high school because he could blow by everybody and get to the rim relatively uncontested. # 5 for ND reminded me of Gesell...more facilitator than scorer, but he had 4 guys around him with offensive skills.

 

[championhawk]

You think! Just ask Herky. What goes around comes around Herky. Fran may be deciding to follow ISU's lead and if you aren't Kentucky or a team like them who year after year gets the players with the most potential in the nation you need to bring in some players with some experience. If not Fran will be back to year 2011 in total rebuild. By the time he develops them if he in fact does, they will be graduating and you never get anywhere.

Iowa fans wouldn't tolerate Fran bringing in the type of guys Freddie brought in. The IC PD won't work with Fran to keep them eligible either.

 

[33hawkfan]

The all-time assist leader deserves better. Mike gave Iowa four good years, not great but good years.

He would have been a good backup guard, I couldn't take watching a single additional game where we ran the ball down for MG to brick a jumper or drive in and get swatted late in the game. If we were behind or tied late in the game with the ball in his hands, I knew it was a loss.

 

[championhawk]

He would have been a good backup guard, I couldn't take watching a single additional game where we ran the ball down for MG to brick a jumper or drive in and get swatted late in the game. If we were behind or tied late in the game with the ball in his hands, I knew it was a loss.

I will never be able to wrap my head around why Fran continued to put the ball in his hands at the end of games. It's like we were watching different games. That and not making a lineup change during the funk disappointed me in Fran because he is better than that.

 

[BGHAWK]

I have no inside information, but it sounds like at least one and maybe two or three players may be urged to move on in order to make room for (allegedly) better players. When that happened at Iowa State, Hawk fans were outraged. Let me guess, this is different, right?

So, you're throwing crap against the wall, no inside info, just some sounds. Fran has always said he would take the right transfer, not several like the clowns.

 

[33hawkfan]

I have no inside information, but it sounds like at least one and maybe two or three players may be urged to move on in order to make room for (allegedly) better players. When that happened at Iowa State, Hawk fans were outraged. Let me guess, this is different, right?

I wasn't outraged, I was hoping Fran would start doing it. It's how you get better, no use carrying dead weight on the roster. It just cracked me up how ISU fans denied that was what was going on, just some weird coincidence that their worst players were always moving on. Fred was cold about it too, pulling guy's rides after he had multiple deaths in his family. Worked out well for him though and none of those guys did anything outside of ISU so obviously weren't cut out for the B12.

 

[aflachawk]

Interesting. Would also put the prospect of Baer getting a scholly in doubt too.

I hope not. He deserves it sooner rather than later