Clown class looks solid. How'd that happen?
- Thread starter madmax1191
- Start date
Good for them, I like it. My first and best wrestling memories are Iowa and ISU on IPBS. My brother and I were much more animated than the Brands brothers during their duals. I hope they get back to being the second best program in the country, right behind Iowa. A few universities would have to burn to the ground for that to happen, but...
KJ is better than many on here want to give him credit for. Following after Sanderson was going to be extremely difficult for anyone but the most elite coach(Brands, Smith, Ryan, J Rob and maybe Koll) and NONE of them were going to leave where they were to go to ISU. It has also been stated that Wrestling does not get the support from the Athletic Department and Administration that they used to.
I know you guys are used to ISU being right there with Iowa and expect nothing less, but times change. What do they currently(this is a key word because I am sure they could raise the bar with the correct AD support) offer that should CLEARLY put them with the Top Tier: Iowa, PSU, OkState, tOSU, Minnesota and Cornell? Also, what would put them CLEARLY ahead of the 2nd Tier: Missouri, Michigan, VTech, NCState, Nebraska and Illinois?
Even if ISU gets significant bolstering from the Adminstration, they are still going to be the #2 team recruiting in Iowa. That was an obvious factor for why Sanderson left. It's hard enough to recruit In-State when you are the #1 program. If you can't plan on getting the best from your state, you now have to try to beat Sanderson in PA, Ryan in Ohio, Steiner(soon) in California, Goodale in NJ, McFarland in MI and Heffernan in Illinois, etc.
He has shown that character matters with how he handled Long as well as issues he has had with several others. Although, a knock may be on his ability to control and/or keep his guys in line as he has had a run of off the mat issues.
Finally, as a coach, Jackson did as well as Sanderson would have taking 3rd his first year, leading Varner and Zabriskie to National Championships. With a healthy Reader and Cyler not leaving, they would most likely have taken 2nd(no one was touching Iowa that year). He then led Reader to a National Championship the following year. He then had a massive rebuilding year. After that, he has proven to be extremely consistent with mainly his recruits, finishing 11th,12th, 14th and 12th the past 4 years. Add in that he just brought in a recruiting class ranked 3rd by Intermat and he has proven to be a solid coach. I know SOLID isn't good enough for many of you, but ISU would be very hard pressed to bring in someone that would do significantly better when the ONLY thing they change is the Head Coach.
I know you guys are used to ISU being right there with Iowa and expect nothing less, but times change. What do they currently(this is a key word because I am sure they could raise the bar with the correct AD support) offer that should CLEARLY put them with the Top Tier: Iowa, PSU, OkState, tOSU, Minnesota and Cornell? Also, what would put them CLEARLY ahead of the 2nd Tier: Missouri, Michigan, VTech, NCState, Nebraska and Illinois?
Even if ISU gets significant bolstering from the Adminstration, they are still going to be the #2 team recruiting in Iowa. That was an obvious factor for why Sanderson left. It's hard enough to recruit In-State when you are the #1 program. If you can't plan on getting the best from your state, you now have to try to beat Sanderson in PA, Ryan in Ohio, Steiner(soon) in California, Goodale in NJ, McFarland in MI and Heffernan in Illinois, etc.
He has shown that character matters with how he handled Long as well as issues he has had with several others. Although, a knock may be on his ability to control and/or keep his guys in line as he has had a run of off the mat issues.
Finally, as a coach, Jackson did as well as Sanderson would have taking 3rd his first year, leading Varner and Zabriskie to National Championships. With a healthy Reader and Cyler not leaving, they would most likely have taken 2nd(no one was touching Iowa that year). He then led Reader to a National Championship the following year. He then had a massive rebuilding year. After that, he has proven to be extremely consistent with mainly his recruits, finishing 11th,12th, 14th and 12th the past 4 years. Add in that he just brought in a recruiting class ranked 3rd by Intermat and he has proven to be a solid coach. I know SOLID isn't good enough for many of you, but ISU would be very hard pressed to bring in someone that would do significantly better when the ONLY thing they change is the Head Coach.
I'll give my opinion from afar, based on what has pretty much been public knowledge.
KJ has not been able to maintain any consistency in regards to keeping high quality asst coaches. The Paulsen Bros have been there but other than that... it's been a mess. His biggest blunder was hiring Yero Washington, who had no connections with any high school programs and really had very little background to coach. He was followed by Nickerson who was then followed by Escobedo as an apparent unpaid asst. Details were never made clear, but Bono's departure was strange, as well.
Blaming all of ISU's problems on the AD may, or may not, be accurate. ISU has/had very good alumni support over the last several decades. But I never read or heard that KJ worked well with those supporters. If you've ever seen or heard Jackson in an interview, you'd realize he doesn't seem to have good communication skills. Maybe that explains a disconnect to the boosters?
I have another theory on KJ's lack of success. He came to ISU after being forced out of USA WRESTLING. Don't know why, but he was pushed out. His experience was with post collegiate wrestlers... 22-26 year old MEN. He had no experience with 17-21 year old youths. Perhaps his training regimen doesn't suit that age group because ISU has had numerous upper body injuries over his tenure.
This has gotten longer than I wanted and I've got more theories, but you get the idea.
To date... no elite high school recruits have had extended success under KJ. We'll see how the new guys do.
KJ has not been able to maintain any consistency in regards to keeping high quality asst coaches. The Paulsen Bros have been there but other than that... it's been a mess. His biggest blunder was hiring Yero Washington, who had no connections with any high school programs and really had very little background to coach. He was followed by Nickerson who was then followed by Escobedo as an apparent unpaid asst. Details were never made clear, but Bono's departure was strange, as well.
Blaming all of ISU's problems on the AD may, or may not, be accurate. ISU has/had very good alumni support over the last several decades. But I never read or heard that KJ worked well with those supporters. If you've ever seen or heard Jackson in an interview, you'd realize he doesn't seem to have good communication skills. Maybe that explains a disconnect to the boosters?
I have another theory on KJ's lack of success. He came to ISU after being forced out of USA WRESTLING. Don't know why, but he was pushed out. His experience was with post collegiate wrestlers... 22-26 year old MEN. He had no experience with 17-21 year old youths. Perhaps his training regimen doesn't suit that age group because ISU has had numerous upper body injuries over his tenure.
This has gotten longer than I wanted and I've got more theories, but you get the idea.
To date... no elite high school recruits have had extended success under KJ. We'll see how the new guys do.
MitchL,
Thank you for that extra insight. I, admittedly, have some bias for KJ, having watched him wrestle a ton(also from MI) and spoken with him on several occasions. I am obviously too far removed to know the exact inner workings. I can only go by what those closer to the program say. I sort of equate KJ to GW Bush. They weren't the best speakers and many doubted their intelligence/ability because of that. However, they are actually both very bright guys and you can see that when they sit down and have a casual conversation.
Thank you for that extra insight. I, admittedly, have some bias for KJ, having watched him wrestle a ton(also from MI) and spoken with him on several occasions. I am obviously too far removed to know the exact inner workings. I can only go by what those closer to the program say. I sort of equate KJ to GW Bush. They weren't the best speakers and many doubted their intelligence/ability because of that. However, they are actually both very bright guys and you can see that when they sit down and have a casual conversation.
No secret to anyone that I dislike ISU/KJ. So you might want to take my opinion with a grain of salt, so to speak. But the results pretty much speak for themselves. He's had 7 years. That's enough time to rebuild... if you have the skills.
Fact is... in college wrestling... there's a significant drop off in talent outside the top ten programs ISU is not even a top ten program And I believe ISU even finished around 35th in one of his seasons?.
30th his 3rd year, but that was going to happen to just about anyone, having to replace Long, Carr, Reader, Varner and Zabriskie. I will admit that I don't think he can take ISU back to elite status, but I am in the camp that very few coaches could and even less of those would take the job to begin with. I think KJ is a good, SOLID Head Coach. He is around the 10th to 15th best coach and his teams follow suit. I am simply not sold that the Head Coaches I would put ahead of him would want to leave where they are at to go to ISU.
Please note: I didn't figure any of the popular assistant coaches as they are still unknowns. No matter the hype you don't know how someone will do the 1st time they are given the CEO type reigns!
Please note: I didn't figure any of the popular assistant coaches as they are still unknowns. No matter the hype you don't know how someone will do the 1st time they are given the CEO type reigns!
Its a bias view, but I believe the Paulson's are the key to that program developing. Travis could be a great head coach down the road. I've gotten to know him a little bit, and he's just a very good person with extensive wrestling knowledge, a great work ethic, and the kids seem to enjoy wrestling for him. As someone said, they just need more consistency, but it will be hard to ever be what they once were. The wrestling landscape has changed dramatically since the 1980s and they were already slipping under Douglas in the 90s. When Bono left, that had to be a huge signal that tough times were ahead. He was a Cyclone through and through. I loved to hate that guy when he was on the mat for them and then on the bench, and the ones opposing fans hate are usually the guys who are the heart and soul of a program.
Quick question, didn't one of the Williams brothers from Iowa move over to Ames to coach a couple years back? What became of that situation or is he still with their Olympic program?
Quick question, didn't one of the Williams brothers from Iowa move over to Ames to coach a couple years back? What became of that situation or is he still with their Olympic program?
Ugh, is this not a message board to talk about wrestling? We can't have a kind hearted, reasonable conversation about the Head Coach of another Iowa school? I like KJ. I think he is a good guy and a solid coach. I gave my reasons why, and openly invite and respect dissenting opinions. Again, I thought that is what message boards are for, ESPECIALLY in the offseason when there is very little to talk about!
I'm sorry but I don't think anyone could reasonably say KJ has done a good job. There are at least 100 guys I would hire ahead of him. Hell I would hire a feline or dog before keeping him around. I expect this to turn into several pages of you arguing with everyone. It being a clown topic makes it worse. It doesn't mean I don't like you so please proceed.
Hey, I respect your opinion. Please tell me what you would then consider a good job? Having averaged 12th place over the past 4 years(with basically his own recruits and enough time to get his feet wet) he has done better than over 80% of DI Head Coaches. Are they all not doing a good job? I wonder if it is more semantics? Maybe what I consider great, you consider only good, and what I consider good you consider average at best?
I think there are numerous coaches out there that would have Iowa State routinely in the top 10. I think KJ has done a very poor job. I would consider what he has done a pretty good job if it were at most schools not named Iowa or Oklahoma State or the recent big guns out east.
Ok, you guys baited me into another post of said discussion.
There have been comments that Pollard does not support wrestling. But who gets the blame for that? Does he not support wrestling because the fan base doesn't or does the fan base not support wrestling because they think the AD doesn't?
Outside of the Iowa dual, ISU can't draw flies to Ames. Gimmicks don't work either.
If you've ever been to Hilton for a dual, you'll notice the fans could be described as a bunch of old, white guys. Now it would be hard to argue that KJ doesn't have a culturally, diverse team. I might get blasted for this, but one could argue that the roster has not been accepted by the fan base. The off the mat and on the mat behavioral problems haven't helped that perception.
Finally... KJ's biggest issue recently, imo, is how he has butchered the redshirt concept. Meeks as a true freshman and Dante this season. You burn DR's redshirt, wrestle him a few times, and sit him for the post season. WTH was he thinking?
There have been comments that Pollard does not support wrestling. But who gets the blame for that? Does he not support wrestling because the fan base doesn't or does the fan base not support wrestling because they think the AD doesn't?
Outside of the Iowa dual, ISU can't draw flies to Ames. Gimmicks don't work either.
If you've ever been to Hilton for a dual, you'll notice the fans could be described as a bunch of old, white guys. Now it would be hard to argue that KJ doesn't have a culturally, diverse team. I might get blasted for this, but one could argue that the roster has not been accepted by the fan base. The off the mat and on the mat behavioral problems haven't helped that perception.
Finally... KJ's biggest issue recently, imo, is how he has butchered the redshirt concept. Meeks as a true freshman and Dante this season. You burn DR's redshirt, wrestle him a few times, and sit him for the post season. WTH was he thinking?
Thanks. I see our opinions differ based on what we expect from ISU. I don't see ISU as the destination "currently" that it was in the past. I think it has fallen behind several of the schools I listed above, without anything to do with KJ. Taking KJ completely out of the equation, what would you point to when trying to convince a recruit to go to ISU over Iowa, PSU, tOSU, OkState, Minnesota, Cornell,Missouri, Michigan, VTech, NCState, Nebraska or Illinois? Not to say ISU couldn't be competitive with many of these teams but I don't see anything that would convince me they should be ahead of any of them.
MSU: You make an excellent point as far as ISU as a top tier, or even second tier, destination. That ship sailed about 3 years ago. The longer they languish, the harder to attract a better coach. There are AT LEAST a dozen better jobs today.
When you have a non revenue sport at a school where attendance is struggling, there might be a hesitancy to spend time and $$$ to get a better leader. Pollard is merely waiting for Alvarez to retire. The chance to move on may be the tipping point for him.
When you have a non revenue sport at a school where attendance is struggling, there might be a hesitancy to spend time and $$$ to get a better leader. Pollard is merely waiting for Alvarez to retire. The chance to move on may be the tipping point for him.
I had the chance to interview Coach Jackson after he won his gold medal in Barcelona. I was a student at Iowa State and worked as the assistant sports editor of the ISU Daily.
Had a great time meeting him. He was very personable. Generous with his time, and I left thinking he was simply a "good guy." Yes, this was 20 years ago ... But my 1:1 time showed a kind-hearted individual who loves the sport of wrestling.
I have always pulled for him to be successful at ISU ... Not successful enough to beat my Hawks, but successful enough to get ISU wrestling back to where it should be... There is absolutely no reason ISU should ever be outside of the Top 10 ... It has history, facilities, support (well, maybe the support has waned a bit lately) ... to be a Top 10 program.
Unfortunately, I think Jackson has had enough time to prove himself and the results are simply not there ... I was surprised when ISU extended him (I think that was last year) ...
Had a great time meeting him. He was very personable. Generous with his time, and I left thinking he was simply a "good guy." Yes, this was 20 years ago ... But my 1:1 time showed a kind-hearted individual who loves the sport of wrestling.
I have always pulled for him to be successful at ISU ... Not successful enough to beat my Hawks, but successful enough to get ISU wrestling back to where it should be... There is absolutely no reason ISU should ever be outside of the Top 10 ... It has history, facilities, support (well, maybe the support has waned a bit lately) ... to be a Top 10 program.
Unfortunately, I think Jackson has had enough time to prove himself and the results are simply not there ... I was surprised when ISU extended him (I think that was last year) ...
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I have quite a few friends, family, coworkers, and individuals that I've ran into over the years that are clown supporters. Basically all of them no longer donate to the wrestling program and no longer pay for season tickets.
The common theme is that they all have a problem with KJ for one reason or another. Never really cared to ask why, but I have yet to hear anything about Pollard, even though it's obvious he cares very little about the wrestling program.
Is the program better or worse than when he took over? That is the question that is important here and it is pretty obvious it is worse off. The fact is that ISU is not a great job but is merely a good job. Because of the fact that ISU is not even #1 in it's own state, it becomes difficult to recruit. I agree that there are probably about 10-15 better jobs out there because it is the best wrestling school in its state and/or has much more fertile recruiting ground.
As an outsider I find this discussion of Iowa State's evolution/devolution interesting. The debate over KJ's coaching ability has been interesting. BUT, it's a bit ironic that all of the negativity towards KJ (perhaps justified, I'm not in a position to say) comes in a thread that talks about ISU's best recruiting class in a long time--3rd in one ranking! I realize ISU has had some elite recruits not live up to expectations, but still 3rd best recruiting class is pretty good! It sounds like some of these elite recruits sought out ISU. That says something too. If I were an ISU fan I would be at least a bit encouraged.
ISU may have gotten the #3 recruiting class, but I don't believe that class translates at nationals based on history. My opinion is that KJ does not strengthen his wrestlers once they get into the room. Someone that looks like a low AA/rd of 12 guy in college never seems to outdo that projection at ISU with one notable exception. Some recruits have regressed. I look at the current crop and he landed (flo rankings) the 23rd, 32nd, 45th, and 67th guys. We all know from recent history that you need a combo of top ten recruits and/or great coaching to get guys into the top 4 at nationals as individuals and as a team. I'm not saying the 23rd ranked recruit can't be a national champ, but except for Kyven Gadson, I've yet to see KJ do it with one of his recruits. Only one KJ recruit has ever gotten into the top 4 at Nationals, and that is Gadson. That looks more like an individual achievement than something the program actually produced.
KJ has done a reasonable job, but not a great one. I think ISU will continue to tread in the 10-15 range nationally while he's there. Looks like Pollard is okay with that, so ...
KJ has done a reasonable job, but not a great one. I think ISU will continue to tread in the 10-15 range nationally while he's there. Looks like Pollard is okay with that, so ...
In my opinion, Meeks was the best wrestler in Iowa since David Kjelgaard. His handling alone should end the discussion of Jackson.
ISU hasn't been inside the NCAA top 10 since 2010. That's 6 whole seasons without cracking the top 10 and at this point you can't even consider them as a serious top 10 contender in 2017. Cael has been gone since 2009 so you can't blame him anymore.
Jackson may be a "nice guy" but his program management has been poor. His work ethic has been called into question (missing practice time), his red shirt policy has been baffling and of course the inability to develop talent. And he's been a PR nightmare--from his wife's message board and Twitter rants to his proclamation he's "built it" after finishing 14th at the NCAAs in 2015.
As for "support" when it comes to facilities, budget, tradition, etc. ISU is light years beyond many schools. It might not be top 4-5 but they are certainly in the next tier.
It is nice to see them get some good recruits. Not a lot of true star power but a deep class that will certainly help. Perhaps he's righted the ship but he has a lot to prove. Coaches going into their 8th season shouldn't have to prove anything, IMHO.
My brother had season tickets at ISU forever until about 4 years ago. Does not like Jackson, does not like Pollard. I have only had one interaction with Jackson and he seemed like a very nice. I suggested that his son should walk on to the Iowa football team as a fullback. And he said he hadn't heard from Ferentz about that but he would be open to it.
with a recruiting class like that, Kevin Jackson will be safe a while longer.... He has something to sell to the Administration now. ISU has been out of the top 10 but if you go and look at the last 3 year's results, they have been climbing a little higher each year. It has taken time (losing Cael was a devastation) but maybe KJ finally has something going.
With the tradition of ISU, top ten is "good," top 5 is excellent. This isn't football or basketball where any team in the top 25 has a chance of making a run from year to year. ISU is not measured against Wyoming, Stanford or <ahem> Michigan State.
I could name 10 or 12 programs I'd rather be than at ISU and I grew up in that area and cheered for the Clones when not against Iowa.
I find it interesting that people hang on to the narrative ISU was great before Kevin Jackson. In reality, other than a 4 year blip with Cael, ISU has not generally been a top 5 team since 1987. From 1988 through the time Cael took over, their average finish at NCAAs was 7th. They did not win a Big 12 conference title from 1993-2007. Iowa beat them in 30 consecutive dual meets from 1987-2002. Again, long before KJ.
I don't give a crap about ISU. But, the "good old days" for ISU passed when Nichols retired in the early 80s. Otherwise, they have been fairly mediocre except for a few blips. All that said, Jackson has not turned it around, but this mess started three decades ago. The ISU root cause is deeper than KJ.
I don't give a crap about ISU. But, the "good old days" for ISU passed when Nichols retired in the early 80s. Otherwise, they have been fairly mediocre except for a few blips. All that said, Jackson has not turned it around, but this mess started three decades ago. The ISU root cause is deeper than KJ.
Lets not get out of hand here. The class is very solid, but is ranked higher b/c of the # of good recruits and not because they have a ton of NCAA champions coming in. Better off bringing in 3 top rated guys, as opposed to bringing in 8 borderline AA
In 2015, Gadson accounted for 26.5 of ISU's 39 points for their 14th place finish. He was their only AA, and without him would have tied for 29th. So it may look like they are climbing, but to me it's a little bit of a mirage.
I think KJ is doing a good but not great job. I hope he outperforms my expectations.
It's all the talk of the damn robes coming back. We need robes.
Who wouldn't want to walk out in a robe? Nice move ISU.
Who wouldn't want to walk out in a robe? Nice move ISU.
And in the 7 seasons since Jackson took over their average finish at the NCAAs has been 15th. Take out the 3rd place finish his first year when Cael left the cupboard full and it drops to 17th.
In the time period you cite (19 years) they finished in the top five 9 times. Is that really not "generally" in the top 5? How many other programs can match or beat that during that period? Iowa, Okie State and...?
Stats are fun.
