Every year before the NCAA Tournament I ask myself the question, Who will win? IOWA, PENNSTATE, OK.STATE, OHIOSTATE. Who could be runnerup? IOWA, PENNSTATE,OK.STATE, OHIOSTATE, CORNELL, NEBRASKA, MINNESOTA, OKLAHOMA, MISSOURI.
Clown class looks solid. How'd that happen?
- Thread starter madmax1191
- Start date
Regarding ISU... their fan base has evolved since KJ's arrival The new mantra in Ames is "shooting for a top ten finish". And there's also an added... "chance for a top five" finish on occasion.
Can you even imagine what things would be like around here if Hawk fans had that approach?
So yeah... the mindset of that program is a bit different.
Can you even imagine what things would be like around here if Hawk fans had that approach?
So yeah... the mindset of that program is a bit different.
If Harold Nichols during the "glory years" of ISU wrestling would have had an unexpected downfall of finishing 15th in the NCAA Tournament three years straight without any individual champions, would have been shown the door by Clay Stapleton or Lou McCullough who would have been AD's during the Harold Nichol's era. That's how important wrestling was at ISU, back then. Just my thought.
No shit? And that's different than every other sport on the planet how exactly? I don't need to check other forums to determine that delusional fans think they "have all the tools" to be whatever fantasy placement they want to install for yearly finishes. If you have a full allotment of scholarships, a Coaching Staff and a place to call home to play in, then you've got "all the tools", regardless of sport. Making it happen is a completely different story.
The fact is there is only one team that fits that "top ten every year" bill in your lifetime as it relates to wrestling (Hint - it rhymes with Iowa).
This...hate standing up for the Clones
but prior to 2011, it wasn't even close in terms of tradition. Still isn't unless tradition is only measured in titles than PSU is getting there.And how many of them haven't been in the top 10 in the past 6 years?
Rutgers is hardly "routinely referred to" as a "having all the tools to be top ten every year." I don't think they've ever had top 10 finish and went from 2002 to 2014 without having a single AA. The fact that a better program can be built at NC State than at Iowa State is mind boggling.
I think this discussion is more about finishing in the top 10 ANY year, not EVERY year. ISU shouldn't be below 10th on a routine basis and that's what they're doing.
Some numbers.
1956-2009 Includes Nichols, Gibbons, Douglas and Sanderson- Average NCAA placing 4.83
Nichols era- 3.93 Avg placing
Gibbons era- 4.14 Avg placing
Douglas era- 7.43 Avg placing
Sanderson era- 3.33 Avg placing
10 years prior to Jackson- 6.8 Avg placing
2010-2016 Jackson average placing 15.28
I don't know what else is needed to show there was some pretty darn good tradition at Iowa State. Link below explains it a little better.
1956-2009 Includes Nichols, Gibbons, Douglas and Sanderson- Average NCAA placing 4.83
Nichols era- 3.93 Avg placing
Gibbons era- 4.14 Avg placing
Douglas era- 7.43 Avg placing
Sanderson era- 3.33 Avg placing
10 years prior to Jackson- 6.8 Avg placing
2010-2016 Jackson average placing 15.28
I don't know what else is needed to show there was some pretty darn good tradition at Iowa State. Link below explains it a little better.
The problem with singling out that tradition, is that it ignores all the changes as time goes by. What has ISU done over the past 10 years to keep up with what Iowa, PSU, tOSU, OkState and Cornell have done between facilities, RTC's and simple name recognition(among many other things)? Then add in Minnesota, Missouri, Michigan, VTech, NCState, Nebraska, ASU, Illinois and even Rutgers. All of whom have made substantial improvements in these areas.
I don't think it is so much that ISU has dropped off in many of these areas(however stagnant) as much as several programs have made substantial leaps. The old ISU brand isn't enough in the everchanging national spotlight. To compete with the up and comers something bold needs to be done to make the ISU name stand out again.
I don't think it is so much that ISU has dropped off in many of these areas(however stagnant) as much as several programs have made substantial leaps. The old ISU brand isn't enough in the everchanging national spotlight. To compete with the up and comers something bold needs to be done to make the ISU name stand out again.
Let's face it, 80% of recruiting is the connection between the wrestler and the coach. Cael was bringing in the recruits to be top 3. He left and went to a program that didn't have near the tradition and success, and look what he has done there. Meanwhile back at ISU, the current coach has been unable to get the same quality as Cael did. Does it need to be more complicated than that.
If Sanderson was the 1st "successful" Coach they'd ever had, you might have an argument. Since that isn't remotely close to true........................
Iowa State has been dumping a boatload of first-rate All-Americans on the sport forever. That type of success shouldn't dry up overnight with any Coach leaving, but somehow they've managed to do just that.
Wouldn't be the first time I misunderstood a post (and vice-versa I presume!)
Yeah I did that yesterday. Mea culpas everywhere.Wouldn't be the first time I misunderstood a post (and vice-versa I presume!)
I usually agree with you, but I will disagree with your assessment that KJ has not been able to recruit top notch kids. Arguably... his top three recruits since he arrived at ISU were Cozart, Meeks, and Finch.
Now I will take some time to count how many AAs those three have achieved during their time at ISU...
There, think I got it.
If my math is correct, the total number of AA finishes by his three best recruits is ZERO!
So the obvious conclusion to KJ's problems is he can recruit top guys, he just can't develop them.
So kids see these results and getting additional top tier kids becomes more difficult because they look at the results.
If my math is correct, the total number of AA finishes by his three best recruits is ZERO!
So the obvious conclusion to KJ's problems is he can recruit top guys, he just can't develop them.
So kids see these results and getting additional top tier kids becomes more difficult because they look at the results.
I guess we differ on what constitutes top recruits. I was looking for top 10 guys, but those three were very good too. I personally wasn't in love with any of the three. Maybe Finch some days. I see what you are saying though.
I question KJ when I see Finch go 208-2 in high school (150-0 his last 3 years), then go 33-20 at ISU, transfer to Grand View and go 56-0 to close out his career with two NAIA titles. Yeah, NAIA isn't the same, but ...
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A more telling story is that two of his best three recruits never wrestled more than two years at ISU. What is going wrong in the room when your undefeated high school wrestler is 35-31 for his career after three seasons.There, think I got it.
If my math is correct, the total number of AA finishes by his three best recruits is ZERO!
So the obvious conclusion to KJ's problems is he can recruit top guys, he just can't develop them.
So kids see these results and getting additional top tier kids becomes more difficult because they look at the results.
My contention was I believe by rankings they were the highest rated guys. I'm too lazy to go back and check the individual ratings of those three. Meeks was very highly rated but there were some red flags by the time he arrived in Ames. I was under the impression that he had some unique advantages from working with Mr. Garrison and the scouting done of his high school opponents Most kids don't have that. The other red flag was there was a perception that he dodged some other highly ranked guys after his high school eligibility was expired so as not to blemish his record. There was the highly anticipated match with Nate Skon that the Meeks clan backed away from, IIRC.
But you are correct and probably a better judge.
Well... this goes back to misusing the redshirt option. Oh, and there might be an overbearing parent involved too.
Cozart was #29 on Intermat the year he came out. Finch was #1 at 119 and Meeks was #2 at 138. The one I thought would light it up was Finch. Glad he found the right environment at Grand View.
Yeah, it's bad enough to have fans with high expectations. How about a parent with too high expectations? I feel bad for the kid. To go from 168-0 to 35-31 is probably worse than a kick to the nuts. I wonder how much burnout played a role here.Well... this goes back to misusing the redshirt option. Oh, and there might be an overbearing parent involved too.
You are missing my point. Just cuz a fan base claims they have everything in place doesn't mean it to be true. (Example being plenty of fanbases think they have it together or have the potential to do so) The culture of ISU has changed. Teams have passed them by. Gable and Cael are yesteryear's ISU. What they accomplished at ISU means little in the grand scheme to today's recruits, outside of some of them understanding they went to ISU. ISU does not currently have a program built to be an annual top ten. A harsh reality for some fans to accept I am sure.
Dude. Everything you're saying about fanbases is direct from the Department of No Shit. Honestly, everybody knows this. What you're saying has been happening since Sport was invented. That's not a point or a revelation.
And the question remains as it pertains to Iowa State (as the topic of this thread and subsequent discussion suggests), why?
And Iowa State ACTUALLY has a pedigree. You act like we're talking about the glory days of Minnesota Football (which was late 50's ??). Iowa State Wrestling has been VERY relevant as little as 6 years ago! (they went 2nd, 5th, 3rd, 3rd from 2007-2010). Not a lifetime by any stretch of the imagination (yesteryear? Really? ), unless all of the new recruits are 5 years old. They have 2 Olympic Champions in the last 12 years (Cael and Varner), how many schools can say the same?
Just because a kid today has the attention span of a gnat (without a phone in front of their face), doesn't mean they don't have some perspective on wrestling history. They do have parents don't they? All of whom are well aware of Iowa State Wrestling if they have a clue about the sport.
Granted, past results are no guarantee of future results, and traditions can and do fade away, but it's one heck of a lot better than not having those results, uuummmmm, like, ever. The "Inventor of Wrestling as We Know It" wrestled at Iowa State (Cael for those who've been sleeping for 6-7 years). Pretty sure people in wrestling circles know this. Do you think most people figure it was Cael on scholarship in Ames and the rest of the bunch came along to cheer him on in an otherwise empty arena?
Iowa State currently has 3 MAJOR problems in its Wrestling program. Its A.D., Head Coach, and Apathy. All the other elements are there like they have been in my lifetime.
Facilities and budget are there. The wrestling club isn't elite but it is supported well enough to be a positive factor. The tools are most certainly there.
Recruits overall are not as in touch with wrestling history as you suggest. Sure plenty will know ISU and have an idea of their history, an advantage over a lot of schools agreed. In IA or a recruit with a connection to the program or state will have a better understanding. A senior today was 12 when ISU last held a team trophy. A senior was 3 when Cael won his final match. I would argue Kyven's title has more importance to today's recruits than anything Cael or Gable accomplished while there. Not discrediting anything they accomplished.
As far as if ISU can return to glory, I will let you guys figure that out. I have MN's problems to worry about. As stated, kids have short attention spans and it is what have you done for me lately.
As far as if ISU can return to glory, I will let you guys figure that out. I have MN's problems to worry about. As stated, kids have short attention spans and it is what have you done for me lately.
I don't discuss "white privilege" but I used the term a couple weeks ago during "match night" at OPRF. A couple white sophomores stepped in front of some black upperclassmen to get on the mat. One of the upperclassmen asked what makes them think the younger guys can just go ahead of them. I shouted out, "White Privilege!" and we all had a laugh. One of the great things about Oak Park, IL and OPRF's wrestling team in particular is the diversity. All of the coaches and wrestlers are loose and comfortable making racial (not to be confused with racist) jokes with each other.
Iowa City is a College Town, it has "progressive" coming out it's eyeballs. To each his own on how "good" that is.
Few years ago I was in Iowa City for a meeting and I stayed at the Brown Street Inn. Loved the neighborhood and the houses and the streets so much that I purchased a house a block from the Inn. Not around much because I like living in Bar Harbor, Maine but I enjoy Iowa City when I'm back.
Do you frequently buy homes while visiting from Maine to places you like? Must be nice.
The answer to your question, NO. I'm from Iowa. I was visiting Bar Harbor and loved it so much that I purchased a house. Love Iowa City but I love Bar Harbor even more.
I have houses in Bar Harbor, Iowa City, and part owner o
My wife and I own a house in Bar Harbor, Iowa City, and co owners of a farm in Elkader. I'm from Elkader and she is from Hershey, PA. Her parents both worked for Hershey Company and invested well in the Hershey Company and that explains where the money came from. I worked for the FBI and then retired early. We just kind of ran into each other one day. Not bragging or complaining. Just the way things worked out.
