Clown class looks solid. How'd that happen?

[SPOONER]

ISU has been out of the top 10 but if you go and look at the last 3 year's results, they have been climbing a little higher each year.

Have you gone back to their last 3 year's results? They are as follows:

2016: 12th / 35 points
2015: 14th / 39 points
2014: 12th / 42 points

And worse, if you go back a 4th year, in 2013 they were 11th with 41.5 points.

Let's see...going from 12th to 14th to 12th and scoring fewer points each time. Can you explain to all of us how that's "climbing"?

 

[Azchief32]

It's all the talk of the damn robes coming back. We need robes.

Who wouldn't want to walk out in a robe? Nice move ISU.

Robes are good...especially when freeballing

 

[SansSouci]

Nobody wants that image in their head.

 

[PapaBearSLIM]

I'm sorry but I don't think anyone could reasonably say KJ has done a good job. There are at least 100 guys I would hire ahead of him. Hell I would hire a feline or dog before keeping him around. I expect this to turn into several pages of you arguing with everyone. It being a clown topic makes it worse. It doesn't mean I don't like you so please proceed.

MSU made a good point about about guys willing to leave where they are at that he considers better than KJ. Kinda like but not on the same level of folks calling for change last offseason with the Hawks, but who would you replace Brands with and expect better results? So poo with TnT being pushed away anytime soon. Back on subject- of those 100 guys you'd replace KJ with, name 10 that you think would take the job.

 

[PapaBearSLIM]

Lets not get out of hand here. The class is very solid, but is ranked higher b/c of the # of good recruits and not because they have a ton of NCAA champions coming in. Better off bringing in 3 top rated guys, as opposed to bringing in 8 borderline AA

So says the PSU folks but not the NC State folks and Willie.

 

[Pennstate1985]

So says the PSU folks but not the NC State folks and Willie.

I think Tom Brands sides with Cael, and as it should be. NC State is trying to build an elite program and therefore should have a different recruiting philosophy than an Iowa or PSU, who are already elite and looking for that one or two guys to win the title two years from now. That is my main problem with recruiting rankings. Rankings treat all teams as equal in need and philosophy, when the opposite is true. Would Iowa rather have NC State's recruiting class (a bunch of low/mid AA and rd12 guys) or the one they got? The answer is obvious, and that doesn't take anything away from the phenomenal job Pop is doing there.

 

[pumpdog20]

Lets not get out of hand here. The class is very solid, but is ranked higher b/c of the # of good recruits and not because they have a ton of NCAA champions coming in. Better off bringing in 3 top rated guys, as opposed to bringing in 8 borderline AA

Yep, Iowa got caught up in this a few times recently with their "#1" ranked recruiting classes. Lots of very good wrestlers, but very few studs. PSU did the opposite and has won 5 out of the last 6. But it's at least a stepping stone for ISU.

 

[jerot]

I think Tom Brands sides with Cael, and as it should be. NC State is trying to build an elite program and therefore should have a different recruiting philosophy than an Iowa or PSU, who are already elite and looking for that one or two guys to win the title two years from now. That is my main problem with recruiting rankings. Rankings treat all teams as equal in need and philosophy, when the opposite is true. Would Iowa rather have NC State's recruiting class (a bunch of low/mid AA and rd12 guys) or the one they got? The answer is obvious, and that doesn't take anything away from the phenomenal job Pop is doing there.

Great stuff.

 

[GG121AND2]

Nick Mitchell is very happy when Iowa State has a good recruiting class.

 

[CarolinaHawkeye]

Nick Mitchell is very happy when Iowa State has a good recruiting class.

Now if Nick Mitchell would just schedule more home meets!

 

[CradleKing26]

Nick Mitchell is very happy when Iowa State has a good recruiting class.

I'd be curious to see what Mitchell could do at Iowa State. Seriously.

 

[24 so far]

I'd be curious to see what Mitchell could do at Iowa State. Seriously.

Or anybody not named Kevin Jackson. The retention of Jackson at Iowa State meets the criteria for the often used terminology to describe Insanity.

I would go so far as to say there are far more "former" Iowa State Wrestling Fans than there are "actual" Iowa State Wrestling Fans currently. That's what happens when your program gets run into the ground by poor decisions, and then repeating those poor decisions.

Iowa Wrestling is far more entertaining when Iowa State is a top contender. The duals are better, Midlands is better and the NCAA's are better. Currently defined as the "Good Old Days".

 

[BIG10MANIAC]

Have you gone back to their last 3 year's results? They are as follows:

2016: 12th / 35 points
2015: 14th / 39 points
2014: 12th / 42 points

And worse, if you go back a 4th year, in 2013 they were 11th with 41.5 points.

Let's see...going from 12th to 14th to 12th and scoring fewer points each time. Can you explain to all of us how that's "climbing"?

Well, I swung and missed on the 2014 results (not sure how i missed that one) but going from 14th to 12th the past 2 years is better irregardless of points. If they score less and still finish 2 places higher than that means everybody else must be scoring less as well.... If they finish even higher in 2017 than the growth his program shows will keep Mr. Jackson employed...

You are knowledgeable Spooner but your gift for nit-picking others is deplorable. The basis of my original post was not to get into Historical debates with you. My point is that Kevin Jackson is not going anywhere and after a top 5 recruiting haul and 3 top 15 finishes he now has something to stand on when going before the Athletic Director. As much as others want him fired, he is building the ISU program back up. To finish top 15 every year is bad for Iowa but somehow great for Iowa State and some schools would kill to finish in the top 15 for 3 years running. I am not an ISU fan but I like Kevin Jackson and I think Having a strong ISU program is good for the sport, good for wrestling and good for recruiting...

 

[SPOONER]

Well, I swung and missed on the 2014 results (not sure how i missed that one) but going from 14th to 12th the past 2 years is better irregardless of points. If they score less and still finish 2 places higher than that means everybody else must be scoring less as well.... If they finish even higher in 2017 than the growth his program shows will keep Mr. Jackson employed...

You are knowledgeable Spooner but your gift for nit-picking others is deplorable. The basis of my original post was not to get into Historical debates with you. My point is that Kevin Jackson is not going anywhere and after a top 5 recruiting haul and 3 top 15 finishes he now has something to stand on when going before the Athletic Director. As much as others want him fired, he is building the ISU program back up. To finish top 15 every year is bad for Iowa but somehow great for Iowa State and some schools would kill to finish in the top 15 for 3 years running. I am not an ISU fan but I like Kevin Jackson and I think Having a strong ISU program is good for the sport, good for wrestling and good for recruiting...

I'm sorry you don't like being shown data that you're wrong. 12-14-12 in addition to scoring fewer points each year is not climbing. I don't know how that makes me "deplorable" but opinions are like a-holes I guess.

If you're the coach at Iowa State and you are trying to stand on a leg of not being in the top 10 for 6 straight seasons you should be laughed out of the AD's office. No school with ISU's tradition and resources would "kill" for that kind of record.

I don't dislike Jackson but his record as a head coach speaks for itself and it speaks poorly. We share the opinion that a strong ISU is a good thing.

 

[MSU158]

This topic is the reason nearly all coaches end up on the hot seat at some time or another, regardless of how successful they have been. This is even more true in wrestling as we have a very distinct 1st or last mentality. Depending on your expectations for ISU, KJ can range from a good coach to a poor one.

Still, KJ has had solid dual teams in all but one season. He has recruited well and showed some honor and class with how he has handled disciplinary issues. He has been as consistent as all but a very few teams the past 4 years. He has brought in a very solid recruiting class and the team looks to have another very solid dual team.

With the above said, I just don't think it is fair anymore to compare their expecations or relative success to Iowa. They are no longer, and I don't see them returning to, a top tier team. If KJ can keep them top 15, the job will remain his unless a major big name like Burroughs wants the job(not gonna happen)

 

[Pennstate1985]

Outside of Kyven Gadson, has there been another KJ recruit that has exceeded expectations on the mat while at ISU?

 

[MSU158]

Outside of Kyven Gadson, has there been another KJ recruit that has exceeded expectations on the mat while at ISU?

That depends on WHOSE expectations you are going by!

Just this past season, Weatherman made the R12 for the 3rd time. Downey just had a great end of the season run. Weatherspoon just AA'd and has won matches at the NCAA's all 3 seasons. Hall was the #14 recruit at 119 and became a 2xAA in just 3 seasons.

 

[SPOONER]

This topic is the reason nearly all coaches end up on the hot seat at some time or another, regardless of how successful they have been. This is even more true in wrestling as we have a very distinct 1st or last mentality. Depending on your expectations for ISU, KJ can range from a good coach to a poor one.

Still, KJ has had solid dual teams in all but one season. He has recruited well and showed some honor and class with how he has handled disciplinary issues. He has been as consistent as all but a very few teams the past 4 years. He has brought in a very solid recruiting class and the team looks to have another very solid dual team.

With the above said, I just don't think it is fair anymore to compare their expecations or relative success to Iowa. They are no longer, and I don't see them returning to, a top tier team. If KJ can keep them top 15, the job will remain his unless a major big name like Burroughs wants the job(not gonna happen)

I agree with not comparing them to Iowa. So who can we compare them to? How about VT? VT was a far worse program and in far worse shape than ISU when Dresser took over and they are much better than ISU...and loaded for bear in upcoming years.

We keep saying "Top 15" which is a vague term. In fact it has been 7 years since they were in the top 10. How many more finishes outside the top 10 can he have before you think a change should be made? And do you really feel that 11th-14th is in line with the expectations of an ISU versus their resources?

 

[MSU158]

I agree with not comparing them to Iowa. So who can we compare them to? How about VT? VT was a far worse program and in far worse shape than ISU when Dresser took over and they are much better than ISU...and loaded for bear in upcoming years.

We keep saying "Top 15" which is a vague term. In fact it has been 7 years since they were in the top 10. How many more finishes outside the top 10 can he have before you think a change should be made? And do you really feel that 11th-14th is in line with the expectations of an ISU versus their resources?

Honestly, I think he walked into a nightmare having to pick up after Sanderson left. While Dresser had to follow after Brands, Brands wasn't there long enough, and if anything, his leaving galvanized the support and Dresser was the absolute perfect fit with his considerable area ties. Brands was there because he realized that VTech had potential. He just wasn't going to stay there when his dream job became available.

I would like to see him get a Top 10 finish in, but if he keeps doing what he has the past 4 seasons, he is doing better than most. I just don't think ISU's current resources are any better than the other dozen or so teams that I have mentioned multiple times in this thread. ISU has been competitive with Nebraska, Illinois, Michigan and even VTech(until this past season) over the past 4 seasons and that is the group that I would put them with.

The sky isn't falling and I am not convinced there is a hire available and willing, that would do better. In fact, I am not convinced that many would come in and not do worse simply by trying to change things up again. Remember, Mark Cody was supposed to make Oklahoma a monster after leaving American. He went to a program very similar to ISU. Second in the state to OkState. A rich history, but has fallen a bit in recent years. He hasn't exactly set the world on fire. It is A LOT harder to do than most think!

 

[CradleKing26]

Outside of Kyven Gadson, has there been another KJ recruit that has exceeded expectations on the mat while at ISU?

Mathew Gibson and Lelund Weatherspoon exceeded expectations by AA'ing.Moreno exceeded the expectations of most. I thought Moreno would be good out of HS but a 2x AA would exceed how well I thought he could do.

I would say Kyven met expectations. Watching him in HS it was fairly obvious he had the potential to be VERY good.

The list of people who have not met expectations is longer- Weatherman x2, Meeks, Earl Hall, Ryak Finch, Joe Cozart (although most could've saw that coming), and Boaz Beard to name a few.

 

[MSU158]

CradleKing26,

Why would you think the #14th ranked 119lber AAing twice in 3 chances is underperforming??? I also think Weatherman making the R12 3 times while having a very solid record makes it hard to say he underperformed. The rest you listed I do not disagree with.

 

[Omahahawk86]

MSU made a good point about about guys willing to leave where they are at that he considers better than KJ. Kinda like but not on the same level of folks calling for change last offseason with the Hawks, but who would you replace Brands with and expect better results? So poo with TnT being pushed away anytime soon. Back on subject- of those 100 guys you'd replace KJ with, name 10 that you think would take the job.

Bono?

 

[Omahahawk86]

Outside of Kyven Gadson, has there been another KJ recruit that has exceeded expectations on the mat while at ISU?

Michael Morero. -This was not bc of Jackson
Lelund Weatherspoon

 

[neversurrender]

While I don't think Jackson is help ISU, I don't know who they could bring in that is going to make them jump back into the title talk. The big name guys who recruits know and want to wrestle for aren't leaving to go to ISU. The up and coming guys might have a better gig now where they are plus there is the fact of can they do better. I hope ISU can become a factor again in the title talk, I loved going to Iowa vs ISU duals growing up. Watching the dual come down to the last match, I don't see it happening anytime soon though without ISU making major strides or Iowa having horrible luck with the injury bug, completely missing on guys in recruiting, or maybe mass kidnapping of the starters.

 

[SPOONER]

Honestly, I think he walked into a nightmare having to pick up after Sanderson left. While Dresser had to follow after Brands, Brands wasn't there long enough, and if anything, his leaving galvanized the support and Dresser was the absolute perfect fit with his considerable area ties. Brands was there because he realized that VTech had potential. He just wasn't going to stay there when his dream job became available.

I would like to see him get a Top 10 finish in, but if he keeps doing what he has the past 4 seasons, he is doing better than most. I just don't think ISU's current resources are any better than the other dozen or so teams that I have mentioned multiple times in this thread. ISU has been competitive with Nebraska, Illinois, Michigan and even VTech(until this past season) over the past 4 seasons and that is the group that I would put them with.

The sky isn't falling and I am not convinced there is a hire available and willing, that would do better. In fact, I am not convinced that many would come in and not do worse simply by trying to change things up again. Remember, Mark Cody was supposed to make Oklahoma a monster after leaving American. He went to a program very similar to ISU. Second in the state to OkState. A rich history, but has fallen a bit in recent years. He hasn't exactly set the world on fire. It is A LOT harder to do than most think!

He walked into a "nightmare"--a contending, well supported program that he guided to a 3rd place finish. Yes, the loss of Cael was a huge deal in Ames but he didn't capitalize on his own success and momentum. Not seeing how that situation somehow worse than taking over a VT program with almost literally no tradition or facilities at the time. VT has finished ahead of ISU each of the past 4 years, doubled them in points this year and are a legit contender for 2017. Nebraska, Illinois and Michigan all finished well ahead of ISU this season.

And again, it is now SEVEN years since Cael left. This is Jackson's program and has been for several years. I always love the "someone might do worse" theory--keeping an under-performing coach out of concern that the next hire might under-perform even more.

 

[SPOONER]

While I don't think Jackson is help ISU, I don't know who they could bring in that is going to make them jump back into the title talk.

Title talk? Need to craw before you can walk--we're talking about just making them competitive. Jackson has shown what he could do. Just throwing out some at least relatively realistic names off the top of my head...without naming a former Hawkeye, I might add.

Nick Mitchell
Eric Guerrero
Zach Espozito
Chris Bono
Mark Perry
Donny Pritzlaff
Sean Bormet
Casey Cunningham
Cody Sanderson
Jake Varner
Lou Rosselli
J Jaggers
Travis Paulson
Pat Popolizio
Pat Santoro
Kyle Dake
David Taylor
Damion Hahn
Bryan Snyder
Chris Pendleton

 

[BIG10MANIAC]

I'm sorry you don't like being shown data that you're wrong. 12-14-12 in addition to scoring fewer points each year is not climbing. I don't know how that makes me "deplorable" but opinions are like a-holes I guess.

If you're the coach at Iowa State and you are trying to stand on a leg of not being in the top 10 for 6 straight seasons you should be laughed out of the AD's office. No school with ISU's tradition and resources would "kill" for that kind of record.

I don't dislike Jackson but his record as a head coach speaks for itself and it speaks poorly. We share the opinion that a strong ISU is a good thing.

Going from 14th to 12th the past 2 years is not getting worse. It's a better position. I am no math genius but 12 is better than 14. How do you know they won't be 10th this year? They have a good recruiting class they just signed and they are staying in the top 15 which seems to be good enough for Jamie Pollard to keep the guy around.......

As far as Iowa State tradition.......ISU for the most part has been a steady top 15 team for quite sometime. They don't have the tradition and history that Iowa has. When was their last NCAA championship...1987? I think being consistent in the top 15 IS their tradition and history for the most part... Cael was Cael and he had ISU to heights that I doubt any coach will be able to do at ISU any time soon

 

[Pennstate1985]

Going from 14th to 12th the past 2 years is not getting worse. It's a better position. I am no math genius but 12 is better than 14. How do you know they won't be 10th this year? They have a good recruiting class they just signed and they are staying in the top 15 which seems to be good enough for Jamie Pollard to keep the guy around.......

Sorry, but the bolded is blatant cherry picking to prove a point that cannot be otherwise made with any other set of numbers. Here is ISU's record the past 8 years:

year__ finish__ points__ AA's
2009_____ 3______ 84.5
2010_____ 3______ 75
2011_____ 20_____ 31.5
2012_____ 35_____ 11.5
2013_____ 11_____ 41_____ 3
2014_____ 12_____ 42_____ 3
2015_____ 14_____ 39_____ 1
2016_____ 12_____ 35_____ 3

Those number show that Cael had built a quality team, and his efforts lasted into 2010. However, Cael also took some recruits and left the ISU shelf relatively bare, and so I put the 2011 and 2012 finishes on the aftermath of his leaving, not least of which was the negative feelings surrounding the program. However, KJ completely owns 2013 through 2016, and there is no improvement during that period. None. Finish is essentially the same. Points are essentially the same. AA's are essentially the same. He's consistent I'll give him that.

The numbers tell me that KJ did a good job righting the ship, so he deserves credit for that. It also tells me that he has yet to figure out how to take things to the next level. Who knows, it may be an issue with the administration, money, recruiting against Iowa, or him.

 

[SPOONER]

Sorry, but the bolded is blatant cherry picking to prove a point that cannot be otherwise made with any other set of numbers. Here is ISU's record the past 8 years:

year__ finish__ points__ AA's
2009_____ 3______ 84.5
2010_____ 3______ 75
2011_____ 20_____ 31.5
2012_____ 35_____ 11.5
2013_____ 11_____ 41_____ 3
2014_____ 12_____ 42_____ 3
2015_____ 14_____ 39_____ 1
2016_____ 12_____ 35_____ 3

Those number show that Cael had built a quality team, and his efforts lasted into 2010. However, Cael also took some recruits and left the ISU shelf relatively bare, and so I put the 2011 and 2012 finishes on the aftermath of his leaving, not least of which was the negative feelings surrounding the program. However, KJ completely owns 2013 through 2016, and there is no improvement during that period. None. Finish is essentially the same. Points are essentially the same. AA's are essentially the same. He's consistent I'll give him that.

The numbers tell me that KJ did a good job righting the ship, so he deserves credit for that. It also tells me that he has yet to figure out how to take things to the next level. Who knows, it may be an issue with the administration, money, recruiting against Iowa, or him.

You are seeing the same thing I am. It is difficult to have a debate with someone who keeps moving the goalposts.

 

[grappler6]

There are about 20 programs that are routinely referred to as "having all the tools to consistently be a top ten team" , well..... You guys do the math.

 

[CradleKing26]

CradleKing26,

Why would you think the #14th ranked 119lber AAing twice in 3 chances is underperforming??? I also think Weatherman making the R12 3 times while having a very solid record makes it hard to say he underperformed. The rest you listed I do not disagree with.

I considered his finishes (7th and 8th) low based off of what I saw from him while he was at the OTC, which I guess was the first I knew of him. I saw him takedown Cejudo! I think he had the ability to be a national title contender, but I didn't realize he was ranked that low coming out of HS, exclude him from the list if you wish.

Weatherman is on the list because he did not get any better from the time he was a true freshman to the time he was a senior, although you are right, he was not a big recruit out of hs.

 

[Czech Hawk]

It's all the talk of the damn robes coming back. We need robes.

Who wouldn't want to walk out in a robe? Nice move ISU.

Well they are versatile, you can use them for so many things. Post grad, poolside wear?
I would like to see ISU come out in straight jackets, you know for the intimidation factor.

 

[Chopper25]

I see this recruiting class being similar to the #6 ranked class Gadsen and Moreno were in. A couple will end up in NAIA, Gremmel or Storr will alright, and Colbray will probably be good.

This plays out with Grandview winning there 10th NAIA title in a row, Iowa State fans say wait until these guys are JRs and SRs, and Colbray gets pinned by Steven Holloway in the finals as a senior. Jackson will burn his redshirt for some dumb reason next year and then he'll have to wrestle the next 3 because he'll be their only option.

 

[championhawk]

There are about 20 programs that are routinely referred to as "having all the tools to consistently be a top ten team" , well..... You guys do the math.

Is that why you root for multiple teams so you have a better shot at rooting for a winner?

 

[Omahahawk86]

I don't expect much from Colbray. He is almost unwatchable. I believe the term is like watching paint try.

Ian Parker has turned into a hammer. He'll have to beat out a very good Markus Simmons though.

Storr is very solid. 2-3 time AA but never a NC.

Greemell. See above

Vega is a stud. He just needs to grow. We'll see how much bigger he can get in his redshirt year. He still isn't fully qualified.

Zemua Baptista-off the radar kid with a ton of upside. I'm a little biased though bc my buddy coaches him.

 

[BIG10MANIAC]

Sorry, but the bolded is blatant cherry picking to prove a point that cannot be otherwise made with any other set of numbers. Here is ISU's record the past 8 years:

year__ finish__ points__ AA's
2009_____ 3______ 84.5
2010_____ 3______ 75
2011_____ 20_____ 31.5
2012_____ 35_____ 11.5
2013_____ 11_____ 41_____ 3
2014_____ 12_____ 42_____ 3
2015_____ 14_____ 39_____ 1
2016_____ 12_____ 35_____ 3

Those number show that Cael had built a quality team, and his efforts lasted into 2010. However, Cael also took some recruits and left the ISU shelf relatively bare, and so I put the 2011 and 2012 finishes on the aftermath of his leaving, not least of which was the negative feelings surrounding the program. However, KJ completely owns 2013 through 2016, and there is no improvement during that period. None. Finish is essentially the same. Points are essentially the same. AA's are essentially the same. He's consistent I'll give him that.

The numbers tell me that KJ did a good job righting the ship, so he deserves credit for that. It also tells me that he has yet to figure out how to take things to the next level. Who knows, it may be an issue with the administration, money, recruiting against Iowa, or him.

Thanks for the numbers, you just proved my point further... Kevin Jackson took them from 35th place in 2012 to 12th place this year, that's well over 100% improvement. It's easy to argue with you Spooner because you make my case for me... Kevin Jackson is doing just fine... He's maintaining a top 15 program and recruiting well...

 

[MitchL]

I see this recruiting class being similar to the #6 ranked class Gadsen and Moreno were in. A couple will end up in NAIA, Gremmel or Storr will alright, and Colbray will probably be good.

This plays out with Grandview winning there 10th NAIA title in a row, Iowa State fans say wait until these guys are JRs and SRs, and Colbray gets pinned by Steven Holloway in the finals as a senior. Jackson will burn his redshirt for some dumb reason next year and then he'll have to wrestle the next 3 because he'll be their only option.

Just because the Clone fans have that line memorized doesn't mean it will happen again. Oh, wait...yes it will.

The one thing you can count on with KJ is screwing up some kids' career because of a misused redshirt season, or lack thereof.

I don't think KJ is stupid. He realizes a decent dual season keeps most of the fans happy. An occasional AA usually happens by pure accident.

I am starting to think the expectations are so low that if ISU somehow sneaks into the top ten at Nationals, KJ gets a lifetime contract. But If I had a farm... I'd bet that farm that ISU never attains top ten status with Jackson as HC.

 

[Pennstate1985]

Thanks for the numbers, you just proved my point further... Kevin Jackson took them from 35th place in 2012 to 12th place this year, that's well over 100% improvement. It's easy to argue with you Spooner because you make my case for me... Kevin Jackson is doing just fine... He's maintaining a top 15 program and recruiting well...

now you're just trolling. Have a nice evening.

 

[SPOONER]

Thanks for the numbers, you just proved my point further... Kevin Jackson took them from 35th place in 2012 to 12th place this year, that's well over 100% improvement. It's easy to argue with you Spooner because you make my case for me... Kevin Jackson is doing just fine... He's maintaining a top 15 program and recruiting well...

True or false: your initial point was they had improved the past 3 years.

Iowa is also a "top 15" program. So is Penn State. Do you comprehend the difference between these schools and ISU?

He's been out of the top 10 for six straight years. That is underachieving based on the resources and tradition at ISU.

 

[SansSouci]

Is that why you root for multiple teams so you have a better shot at rooting for a winner?

Oh, snap!