I think that's the other guy...Jammenz.
Clown class looks solid. How'd that happen?
- Thread starter madmax1191
- Start date
I think that's the other guy...Jammenz.
That's just the thing... There is a difference with Iowa and Penn State. ISU is a different tier, always have been. Out of those 3 schools mentioned you are comparing ISU to 2 other schools that have actually won an NCAA championship in the past 10 years true or false? If the only basis you have for your argument is to go back to the beginning of mine than you are really showing shallow intellect. If you are just wanting the last word in all of this that is fine but the bottom line is that ISU is just fine and so is their coach. I said they are a top 15 team and your response is to say they are not top 10??? Now who is moving the goal post?
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You are comparing apples to motorcycles... ISU does not have the traditions or recruiting resources or the funding that Iowa or Penn State does and you know it!!! Sure they have tradition but nothing as deep as Iowa or Oklahoma Stare and nothing as recent as Penn State or even Minnesota in terms of NCAA championships. Look Dude, I'm a Hawkeye wrestling fan and season ticket holder but I simply do not share your opinion that ISU or their coach is a dumpster fire. There are lots of schools that would pull their own teeth out with pliers to be a consistent top 15 team or land a top 5 recruiting class. ISU has done both of those things this year.. Things are not all doom and gloom as you think.
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I appreciate all things wrestling and certainly pull for certain individuals or teams at times, but make no doubt about it I am a Gopher fan through and through.
I think ISU has a fine history and with the right coach could push to be a perennial top ten team. That's a given.
Cyclone wrestling fans will show up big time with a competitive program. They will get a coach eventually and will be right back in the mix. Americas greatest wrestler, before Spencer Lee, wrestled there. Plenty of tradition at ISU.
Cyclone wrestling fans will show up big time with a competitive program. They will get a coach eventually and will be right back in the mix. Americas greatest wrestler, before Spencer Lee, wrestled there. Plenty of tradition at ISU.
This is where you lose. To say Iowa State doesn't have the tradition Penn State does is absurd. You're trying so hard to one up Spooner your starting to make things up. Facts from 2000-2009 Iowa State was in the TOP 10 eight out of those ten years. They even finished 2nd three of those years. I think many Iowa State fans would disagree with you when you say it's not a dumpster fire going from a consistent Top 10 team to a team to a consistent Top 15 team.
Back to tradition, what teams would pull their teeth out to be a top 15 team? (with an occassional 35th) Michigan State, Cal Poly, Maryland, Northern Illinois, Ohio, Buffalo? Do you see the difference in tradition between ISU and the teams I mentioned?
In this past year under Kevin Jackson leadership a kid went from 125 to 141. That's what I call absurd in the D1 wrestling.
Dang you are correct. Sorry Grappler and hopefully this doesn't bring jammenz out of the woodwork. Grappler is a gofer fan though so he probably does root for multiple teams. I do hope KJ stays at Iiowa State for many years.
That (clearly) isn't the reason I brought up PSU and Iowa. I have stated in this thread several times that the issue here isn't that they aren't winning titles. They are light years from that. I attempted to show you that "top 15" is such a vague term that it can be applied anywhere. Poorly, apparently.
There are no schools with ISU's tradition and resources that would pull their own teeth to finish consistently outside the top 10 and no one hands out
trophies for recruiting rankings. ISU should in no way be content with anything less than a top 10 program. The results under Douglas are perfectly in line with what the expectations should be.
I haven't moved the goalpost on my end. The point remains the same from the start. They are consistently underachieving and KJ has been given ample time to show what he can do.
That's what YOU would call absurd?? This is pure comedy. Why then aren't you a D1 wrestling coach. I love to watch and I love to trust that Tom Brands, Cael Sanderson and Kevin Jackson know what they are doing. Fans like you always think you know more than the coaches do. I haven't lost anything. What do you or Spooner for that fact base tradition on? ISU is a top 15 team but haven't won a team NCAA title in almost 20 years. They are solid and a top 20 team of all time but their recruiting has not been the same level as Iowa or Penn State for a long long time. That's what I meant when I said their tradition isn't the same.
I laugh because you guys are making my points for me. I started my argument saying that ISU is building and that they are a good team.. They will get there, I believe that... As this thread has progressed you are defending the ISU program which is exactly what I was doing in the first place...
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You're probably one of the guys that thought Kirk Ferentz should have been fired before last season too weren't you?
I always get a kick out of fans who think they know more about a team's tradition than the school does.
ISU is fine, they will be fine. Nobody could have come in and taken over for Cael Sanderson and maintained what he built. Jackson had an enormous task but he is a fantastic coach. Results speak for themselves right? I'd love it if Hawkeye football was a consistent top 15 team... ISU wrestling is just that. I guess it just boils down to what you define success as being... Compared to what the Iowa State University does.
The issue here appears to be that you're really impressed with a 15th place team finish (and now 20th) at the NCAA tournament. It's a good finish for Buffalo, William and Mary or Colombia. It isn't for ISU.
If ISU and Jamie Pollard are happy with that then so be it... I don't make that call. Cael found higher success after going to Penn State correct? Perhaps the problem at ISU is not the coach?
I'm just going to agree to disagree with you...
Me saying under Douglas/Cael they were a consistent top 10/ top 5 is team absurd, pure comedy and I should be a D1 coach? Those are the facts. They have gone from a consistent top 10 team to a consistent top 15 team. That is an improvement? How is that proving your point?
When I think of tradition I don't think of the last 10 years being the criteria for the term tradition. To say ISU doesn't have the same or more tradition then PSU is actually absurd. With your PSU/ISU argument you could also say PSU and tOSU has more tradition then Iowa. IMO that would be false too.
Don't take this wrong because I don't want you to get a warm, fuzzy feeling... but as far as I am concerned, you are always pretty objective and give Hawk fans a very reasonable opinion.
Jamie Pollard is the WORST thing to happen to ISU wrestling because he simply does not give a shit what they do.
Don't take this wrong because I don't want you to get a warm, fuzzy feeling... but as far as I am concerned, you are always pretty objective and give Hawk fans a very reasonable opinion.
I think the book is still out on Ferentz. He admittedly changed multiple things about his program. He also benefited from CJ and the schedule. The next 2 years will be telling on how solid the program is. He was on the hot seat and made some major changes. I don't see how that made people wrong.
Comparing Kevin Jackson to Kirk is an insult to Kirk. Yet another (terrible) point.
He wanted a 3 year window, started that stretch at 12th, ended it at 12th. That would be considered a very slow build. Almost as good as the ISU has tradition ..... Then saying they don't have tradition
I don't think he doesn't give a shit, he doesn't have a clue about wrestling and the fan base they could have. I could be wrong about the latter.
Not following wrestling closelyand certainly not following ISU, I have a serious question. With ISU'S 3rd ranked class that you say many of these elite wrestlers sought out KJ, what is the make up of the class ethnically? I truly have no idea but that was the first thing that came to mind.
I realize some PC Bros might not want to talk about it, but in the "new world" created by our current "leaders" blacks have become more militant about "sticking with their own".
Is that the case here?
Colbray is the only black wrestler of the 5 top 100 recruits. Stil, with DI wrestling having so very few black head coaches it would be stupid not to expect more diversity under a black head coach. It would also be a mistake on KJ's part if he didn't take advantage of that.
I don't think he specifically recruits that way, but I would think he is smart enough to at least make an extra effort to recruit a highly ranked black athlete. Even then, I think it is still a case by case basis. Where the recruit grew up, as well as the amount of diversity in the wrestling programs he experienced would make a huge difference. For instance, Mark Hall probably wouldn't be swayed having been all over, while someone at Highland Park, like Quean Smith(not to compare directly to Hall as he has been struggling mightily), would probably feel Very comfortable since he grew up in a nearly all black area and school.
I am not a PC type, but your question frames blacks as being the only ones that may do this rather than seek out there own path. It's probably just as prevalent (meaning few do it) going the other way. I find most people of all colors look out for #1. Can color break a tie? Maybe, but very few things in life are really a tie. It was pretty easy to research the answer via google, so I did it. Out of 8 recruits, only one is black.
MSU's answer has validity as well. Most kids go where they feel things are the right fit, and skin color of the coach for 99% of them is probably #27 on the 'want list'.
MSU's answer has validity as well. Most kids go where they feel things are the right fit, and skin color of the coach for 99% of them is probably #27 on the 'want list'.
It isn't. It is especially not impressive at ISU which is a very well supported program with a ton of tradition.
Actually, it's not so much skin color as it is shared experiences...that and a lot of black folks in this country place a high value on sticking within the community. For example, KJ is a successful black man who made it to the pinnacle of his profession. This is rare in America so why wouldn't a parent of a black kid want him to be mentored by KJ. At least that's the generalization. It happens and it's important to some.
In many ways and for many people, shared experiences is a euphemism for skin color. One and the same. And it works both ways Chief. Insert 'white' where you have 'black' and viola. Most of the time, it's probably subconscious.
Not really. Take a look at a lot of colleges around the U.S....There are degree programs that specialize in Black Studies. Kids/parents specifically choose programs that reflect their
culture, history, race, and yes...shared experiences. Even more so with HBCs. Also, one just has to look at the last two presidential elections...Obama won the black population in the mid to high 90s. That's unheard of. He got close to half of the white vote.
Now...how many times have you heard a white kid choose a coach based on them being white? It doesn't happen because white is the dominant culture in this country and even more so in wrestling. How many black wrestling coaches are in D-1 programs? Two or three?
This is not to say that black kids and parents choose based on race alone or even factor it...Some might look at the school, winning, Freestyle programs. They might even pick a school that is culturally opposite for the different experience. But there is a correlation.
we'll just agree to disagree on a couple of your points. We agree on others. Probably semantics and/or wording differences for the most part. That's okay. Moving on.
I don't see this happiening to much these days. In most cases American college campuses have turned into the softest places on earth. With the emergence of these Safe Spaces where minorities can discuss issues like "white privilege" things are only getting worse.
Another way to answer your question is to look at the current roster at ISU. From a standpoint of feeling comfortable with your new teammates... ISU has a relatively high percentage of non-white athletes. In collegiate sports, specifically wrestling, there is not a very high percentage of black HCs. I guess you could say this works both ways for KJ.
Historically speaking, ISU is a wrestling power, and has been one for a long time. No other team except Iowa and Okie State has had so many DECADES of success in wrestling. In the last decade, the shine has worn off.
I think that KJ is a good guy and could be a good coach if things fell his way for while. As for AD Pollard, its hard to say what effect he has on wrestling at ISU, but I've never viewed him as a positive influence, If I'm misinformed, I know that one of you will correct me.
Not sure I'm buying that, but takes all kinds to make the world go round, so yeah, people throw crap and hope it sticks on occasion.
Anybody that is over 10 years old and knows anything about the sport would CERTAINLY have Iowa State in that conversation. And they should be the 1st team that comes up in that conversation, for teams that aren't Top Ten right now. Dan Gable, Cael Sanderson and "that guy that does the broadcasting thing on BTN and elsewhere" all wrestled at Iowa State. What more needs to be said?
PSU, tOSU, Iowa, OKST, MN, IAST, OK, Pitt, MI, IL, VaTech, Rutgers, Mizzou, ASU, NCST(new to the convo), Cornell, Lehigh, Nebraska among others are all routinely referred to as "having all the tools to be top ten every year." If you don't believe me check out other forums.
Simple math that 18 teams can't finish top ten annually. No matter how talented the teams are.
Simple math that 18 teams can't finish top ten annually. No matter how talented the teams are.
Lol, this is my favorite part. ISU has always been a different tier than PSU? ISU doesn't have the tradition of PSU? Do you even know what those two phrases mean? Even with Cael's run the past few years, ISU still has more team titles, individual titles, more wins overall, etc. They have most certainly not always been on a tier below Penn State. Their tradition holds up quite well compared to everyone not named Oklahoma State and Iowa.
Now please excuse me while I go throw up. How dare you bate me into standing up for ISU.
