Compare Iowa and Wisconsin

[Ihawkhoops]

I am far from a Wisconsin fan, but I respect what that program has done and is still doing. They lose Kaminsky, Decker, Jackson and Bo Ryan, yet I am confident if we played them 10 times, we would win 0. A depleted Minnesota team did not offer much of a challenge, but watching those guys move the ball and execute....wow. I remember Vito Brown looking clumsy and awkward early in his career, now he is hitting 3's and hitting floaters in the lane. Nigel Hayes has looked the part since he arrived, but his game and leadership skills have evolved dramatically. Bronson Koenig is a really good player....did not realize he had offers from WI, Duke, UNC, and Virginia. Add Happ, Iverson with his 40 inch vertical and Davis ( I think) and they have a team that could make a run IMO.

Is Madison that much more attractive than Iowa City? I thought they would struggle big time after losing those guys and then to lose Ryan unexpectedly... 7 in a row we have lost to them.

Thoughts on why WI's program is 10x better than Iowa's?

 

[luvmyhawks]

It took Bo Ryan a long time to build that program up Fran can do the same thing here at Iowa.

One last thing. They did struggle big time to start the season. Before February, Iowa wins 10 times out of 10. Unfortunately, I would rather be playing our best ball at the end of the season as opposed to the beginning of the season.

 

[jwardelt]

He won the B1G his first two seasons. BIG tourney his 3rd year. Didn't take too long.

 

[DanL53]

Iowa is the salt of the earth filled with farmers feeding the world.

Wisconsin could never decide what it was starting out mining lead then making really bad cheese and finally brewing beer.

 

[jwardelt]

Iowa is the salt of the earth filled with farmers feeding the world.

Wisconsin could never decide what it was starting out mining lead then making really bad cheese and finally brewing beer.

Your pallette must be unrefined. Some pretty good cheeses coming from WI these days.

 

[srams21]

[QUOTE="Ihawkhoops, post: 2336259, member: 48275".

Thoughts on why WI's program is 10x better than Iowa's?[/QUOTE]

Wisconsin does a few things that really help them: They instill fundamentals and they play great great defense. They also do an amazing job of finding guys that fit their system and developing them. It's amazing how much their guys improve year to year. Some of ours do too (Jok, Marble, Uthoff, White to an extent) but their guys develop shooting skills, ball handling skills, and many other additions to their game.

They actually don't recruit at a very high level either sans the occasional backyard recruit a la Dekker or Brian Butch. Here is their current rotation and their ranking:

koenig - 4 stars, very highly ranked
Showalter - former walk-on
Hayes - 3 star
Brown - 3 star
Happ - 3 star

Jordan Hill was unranked! Khalil Iverson, Charlie Thomas, and Illikainen are all three star freshman who have made a big impact at times

They return everyone next year plus get four star guard Brevin Pritzl back from injury/redshirt. Yikes!

 

[hawkisak]

Most Wisky kids have always been excellent shooters. Iowa's teams have not historically been stellar from 3. As far as additional issues, Wisky's arena much newer and nicer. It's essentially in downtown Madison and they have 3 times the population within a 30 minute radius than CHA.

OH, and they have been winning consistently for 15+ years. People want to be there and be loud obnoxious cheeseheads. Their atmosphere is much better than CHA's.

Wisky's staff, love them or hate them, gets an A+ for player development and recruiting players that fit their system, are very coachable and generally get better.

 

[Hawkeyefan1234]

They have a system in place and do what they do really well. It's obvious since they have had 7 guys get drafted, 1 lottery pick in kaminsky and the only above average player from Wisconsin in the last 15 years in the NBA is Devon Harris. Kaminsky is below average and Sam dekker is getting beaten out by a second rounder and an undrafted free agent on the rockets. Shows that they have really good coaching and are good at the things they do.

 

[newman21W]

Been going to Badger games since the Cofield days and been a season ticket holder throughout Bo's tenure. I won't comment on Iowa or offer comparison. My perspective on the Badgers success only.
Bo brought a system and an insanely high focus on fundamentals. Not flashy but it is a reliable way to get better at basketball. That is aided by stability. The staff hasn't changed much (and even this year-Gard steps up and they bring back former assistant Howard Moore) and there aren't many transfers or guys leaving due to "unforeseen circumstances". There is a healthy tradition of redshirting so most rosters are older than their grade (this year Showalter, Hill, and Happ with Pritzl currently redshirting).
Ryan (and Gard has been recruiting coordinator for 10 years) has had a good eye for talent that fits. Lots of great players have Wisconsin as a first big offer (and sadly end up going to a bigger name) but the Badgers have a real knack for bringing in guys who fit what they do and are better than their ranking. I also think they tend to get a lot of grounded, hard working kids who don't need their @ss kissed. Bo didn't seem the type to want to put up with high maintenance and was way too old school for a lot of recruits. Will be interesting to see if Gard can sell a little better while still getting kids who fit.
The Kohl Center was a real turning point for the program. The Field House was a great place to watch a game and I miss how crazy loud it could get, but stepping into 21st century facilities was a crucial step.

I really like the Gard hire. He's a Wisconsin lifer, very steady and represents the program well, and has really lifted the program through a really tough time. Most of all, he can really coach.

 

[DanL53]

Your pallette must be unrefined. Some pretty good cheeses coming from WI these days.

Just speaking historically when known cheese producing states in the east slammed Wisconsin cheeses for decades. Today, you are well known for your string cheese and meat sticks.

 

[srams21]

Been going to Badger games since the Cofield days and been a season ticket holder throughout Bo's tenure. I won't comment on Iowa or offer comparison. My perspective on the Badgers success only.
Bo brought a system and an insanely high focus on fundamentals. Not flashy but it is a reliable way to get better at basketball. That is aided by stability. The staff hasn't changed much (and even this year-Gard steps up and they bring back former assistant Howard Moore) and there aren't many transfers or guys leaving due to "unforeseen circumstances". There is a healthy tradition of redshirting so most rosters are older than their grade (this year Showalter, Hill, and Happ with Pritzl currently redshirting).
Ryan (and Gard has been recruiting coordinator for 10 years) has had a good eye for talent that fits. Lots of great players have Wisconsin as a first big offer (and sadly end up going to a bigger name) but the Badgers have a real knack for bringing in guys who fit what they do and are better than their ranking. I also think they tend to get a lot of grounded, hard working kids who don't need their @ss kissed. Bo didn't seem the type to want to put up with high maintenance and was way too old school for a lot of recruits. Will be interesting to see if Gard can sell a little better while still getting kids who fit.
The Kohl Center was a real turning point for the program. The Field House was a great place to watch a game and I miss how crazy loud it could get, but stepping into 21st century facilities was a crucial step.

I really like the Gard hire. He's a Wisconsin lifer, very steady and represents the program well, and has really lifted the program through a really tough time. Most of all, he can really coach.

I would honestly intrigued to hear your thoughts on the Iowa program and Fran as an outsider's perspective and one who has seen a very successful program right across the river.

 

[wisbadger303]

I think one of the main things that Bo looked for in recruits is that they were coachable. And even the ones that weren't so coachable (like Dekker, who came in with so much hype), he didn't put with any nonsense. Watch his old games, when Dekker made a mistake, even in the first minutes of the game, out came the hook and he was on the bench for a few minutes. I think Gard isn't quite so quick with the hook but he's got that same mentality to use bench time as a teaching tool.

Watch Gard's press conferences (link) and compare them with Fran's. You can decide if there's a difference in leadership.

 

[wisbadger303]

I would honestly intrigued to hear your thoughts on the Iowa program and Fran as an outsider's perspective and one who has seen a very successful program right across the river.

For what it's worth here's my take. Fran has obviously been a huge step up from Lick but there are some odd things about the way he coaches. I can't understand his substitution patterns, hockey like platoons. Of course he likes to run so he needs to sub more but sometimes it was mysterious what his plans were. I also don't know how mentally tough he is. This comes across in his postgame pressers and you see that the players also echo that soft mentality. Just my 2 cents.

 

[SunPrairieBucky94]

It took Bo Ryan a long time to build that program up Fran can do the same thing here at Iowa.

One last thing. They did struggle big time to start the season. Before February, Iowa wins 10 times out of 10. Unfortunately, I would rather be playing our best ball at the end of the season as opposed to the beginning of the season.

Bo won conference in his first year and made it to the tourney with Bennetts leftovers from a team that lost 5 starting seniors who went to a final four.
He never finished lower than 4th in conference and made the tourney every year.

 

[newman21W]

Since you asked...

Fran has stabilized the program after the constant turnover under Alford and the dumpster fire of Lickliter. The team has an identity in terms of style-i.e. you can see what he wants and how he wants his team to play. This puts him above the Groce's and lil Pitino's of the B10. I would worry though that recruiting to Iowa (which has some of the limiting recruiting factors Wisconsin does) will make it difficult to really succeed at the level you all want playing that way. Can he get the athletes he needs to play his style head to head with the big boys? It looked like he had it going earlier this year, but that seems in doubt now. How would it be with a pg with fewer limitations than Gesell and a big that is more mobile than Woodbury? Can he get that to Iowa is the question.

My other concern is with temperament/discipline/mental toughness. Fran seems barely in control at times. Some fire in a coach is essential and you can work the refs to your advantage, but Fran does seem to go past this at times (both in games and out-thinking his 82 second presser the other day). Is there a connection between his demeanor and the poor finishes to games and the couple collapses? I don't know but it would be a concern. Something just seems off. It could just be this group of players though-sometimes a group is what it is. Still, I think I'd feel more comfortable as an Iowa fan with more consistency and a steadier feel to the program.

 

[srams21]

Thanks to all the Bucky fans for their input. I feel like it's nice to get some outside perspective. I appreciate it.

I feel like if an Iowa fan said some of the things you said about Fran and the program, some posters on here would rip them to shreds. My takeaways from your posts are that while Fran has done a nice job, you question his leadership, demeanor, and mental toughness. I think those are legitimate concerns at this point. It's interesting to note that four fans from a team who is successful are questioning those things.

I'm a big fan of Gard so far and I think you guys are set up for a potentially great year next year. Good luck the rest of the way guys.

 

[Johnny Uthoff]

Madison is much more attractive place to spend 4 years than Iowa City is. I think IC is near the bottom of B10 cities. It's too small potatoes for a major college city. It's gotten a little better since I graduated over 10 years ago, but not enough. I know I'm in the minority here. I've met very few people who went to U of I who disliked the experience. The school was fine, but I hated living there. I was born and raised in IA. I've lived most of my life here. But I've lived in and/or spent plenty of time in Columbus, Minneapolis, Madison (and other non-B10 cities). I prefer the things bigger cities have to offer (better stores, restaurants, movie theaters, arenas/concerts, etc...).

As for the basketball part -- I think WI's coaches are better. Gard looked just like Bo the last game (okay, he didn't whine as much). Their team always seems like the SF Giants when they're winning World Series. They have only a couple guys you'd want on your roster, yet somehow they're always good. They play their system so well, good fundamentals, shoot FT'S very well. McCaffery has done a great job turning IA's program around, and he's going nowhere. But he's not as good as Bo/Gard/others as an in-game coach.

 

[DanL53]

Must admit I spent an evening in downtown Madison. Was with a few guys who taught there and or were Grad-Student types. I actually have some highly intelligent types related to me but that's a different story. We took a cab and hit the first bar and started moving from one to the other as was the plan. Anyway, by the time we hit this bar playing Polka music which was the strangest dang thing for an old punk rock loving guy like me, anyway by then some of the group was falling out and going home.

Later the Grad Student from Ireland, between bars, turns and says to me something about it was a fine night to finally be drinking with an American who could keep up. I suggested politely that we drop the beers between shots and just drink whiskey of his choice and get this over with.

We tied. (I don't normally drink and haven't except on rare occasion since the early 80's) but that's my USA! USA! Moment regarding Madison.

 

[sanjosebill]

Wisconsin knows how to develop their players. It is amazing the amount of growth from year to year. They are a well oiled machine.

They've been to the NCAA's 18 straights years and played for the title last season. Wisconsin is no flash in the pan.

 

[NashvilleHawk]

For what it's worth here's my take. Fran has obviously been a huge step up from Lick but there are some odd things about the way he coaches. I can't understand his substitution patterns, hockey like platoons. Of course he likes to run so he needs to sub more but sometimes it was mysterious what his plans were. I also don't know how mentally tough he is. This comes across in his postgame pressers and you see that the players also echo that soft mentality. Just my 2 cents.

vs UTEP, Tommy Heinsohn compared the Iowa substitutions to the equivalent of the "Chinese Red Army."
Wow, it was great hearing Stockton and Heinsohn in their prime during the NCAA games, back in the days.

 

[Ihawkhoops]

Wisconsin always seems to have players that fight the system to a "T". They recruit a shooter and by sophomore-junior year, the kid is making shots. Junior-senior year, the kid has added a dribble drive game / pull up jumper and added 10-15 pounds of muscle. Their bigs come in looking awkward as freshman and leave looking like skilled European professionals with nice post games and mid range if not 3 point range.

Prepare the stones and arrows, but I think Woodbury's graduation will help. Not knocking what he has done, but he does not fit the system like Olaseni did. We need a big who can block shots, run the floor and finish at the rim. Woodbury has played to the extent of his abilities and given 100%, but his game is not suited to up tempo basketball. Wagner is developing nicely and hopefully Hutton and Moss have absorbed enough this year to not play like freshman next year. We are going to need a couple guys to step up in the shooting department if Fran wants to be so 3-point shot oriented.

 

[DanL53]

I would sooner spend a month around Iowa's Great Lakes than a month at the Dells or Door County. But that's just me.

I do recall the years, YEARS that Wisconsin was battling Northwestern for who would finish less poorly in the Big Ten. So if we must compare, I'd say it is likely the clock is ticking and nature will return things to the norm sometime soon. Wisconsin has had long stretches of being very good, and very bad. Iowa has been steady with a few low spots and many more highs by measure of our lows.

And, only recently and barely did Wisconsin pass us in head to head games. Something to think about if we must compare.

Me? I think one can find everything good about Wisconsin in Allamakee county, Northeast Iowa, and it costs half as much to visit.

 

[srams21]

I would sooner spend a month around Iowa's Great Lakes than a month at the Dells or Door County. But that's just me.

I do recall the years, YEARS that Wisconsin was battling Northwestern for who would finish less poorly in the Big Ten. So if we must compare, I'd say it is likely the clock is ticking and nature will return things to the norm sometime soon. Wisconsin has had long stretches of being very good, and very bad. Iowa has been steady with a few low spots and many more highs by measure of our lows.

And, only recently and barely did Wisconsin pass us in head to head games. Something to think about if we must compare.

Me? I think one can find everything good about Wisconsin in Allamakee county, Northeast Iowa, and it costs half as much to visit.

The Dells are overrated for sure. However, I love Door County. It has a very unique ambiance and setting that I don't think any place in Iowa can match. I do agree that Iowa has many wonderful places especially if you love the outdoors as I do. I am lucky to have lived in both states although I prefer Iowa!

If I were a betting man, I would bet that Wisconsin isn't going to be falling to the bottom of the conference in football or basketball anytime soon. There are many reasons I think this way but after having lived up there for five years and having friends who work in the athletic dept, they are very committed to both those programs. They also have a population base that is double that of Iowa to draw from with less in state competition (especially in football).

I hope Iowa can continue to climb and surpass our neighbors but they do have many built-in advantages that they finally started to take advantage of in the 90's and now we are seeing the fruits of that. Just my perspective.

 

[hawksense]

Dan, I love your allegiance. But, Wisky has thoroughly passed us by.

I, also, love Iowa City. Loved Madison when I went there.

Iowa City is lovably grubby, whereas Madison is shinier. More for adults.

Me, I'm 51 years young and love Iowa City's filth. I am not an adult.

 

[DanL53]

In a dogfight shooting from behind is preferred. And that sounded dumb.

I guess I hope that things turn around someday but Bo's buddy seems like a pretty good coach.

 

[jwardelt]

Just speaking historically when known cheese producing states in the east slammed Wisconsin cheeses for decades. Today, you are well known for your string cheese and meat sticks.

String cheese, yuck. Lot of good artisinal cheeses from WI these days. I don't care for the mass produced varieties.

Sausage has always been good.

 

[Hawk_4shur]

Wisky has a better program than Iowa right now in most, in not all, respects. (I don't know anything about Wisky facilities, but the Kohl Center seems pretty cool). Better fan and student support, better "recent" tradition, better national rep, better "recent" coaching. About the only thing bad about the program was that the played boring basketball until last year. Now their tempo is fine.

An independent observer will likely pick Madison over IC, but both are nice cities.

I hope that Fran observes what Wisky does because it's very impressive.

Here's the thing - Wisky players get BETTER when the heat is on. It's like they all become assassins at the most important time of the game. Sure, they're going to get beat by superior talent (see Duke 2015), but not always (see KY 2015). But when evenly matched they seem to win about 90% of the time. That's good coaching, strong development and smart player selection.

But, except for all that, I hate Wisconsin!

 

[jwardelt]

Wisky has a better program than Iowa right now in most, in not all, respects. (I don't know anything about Wisky facilities, but the Kohl Center seems pretty cool). Better fan and student support, better "recent" tradition, better national rep, better "recent" coaching. About the only thing bad about the program was that the played boring basketball until last year. Now their tempo is fine.

An independent observer will likely pick Madison over IC, but both are nice cities.

I hope that Fran observes what Wisky does because it's very impressive.

Here's the thing - Wisky players get BETTER when the heat is on. It's like they all become assassins at the most important time of the game. Sure, they're going to get beat by superior talent (see Duke 2015), but not always (see KY 2015). But when evenly matched they seem to win about 90% of the time. That's good coaching, strong development and smart player selection.

But, except for all that, I hate Wisconsin!

Tempo never changed. Execution and efficiency did. They were 346 out of 351 last year in tempo. Everything looks better when shots go in. Best offensive efficiency ever last year since Kenpom started tracking.

 

[RocknRollface]

I am far from a Wisconsin fan, but I respect what that program has done and is still doing. They lose Kaminsky, Decker, Jackson and Bo Ryan, yet I am confident if we played them 10 times, we would win 0. A depleted Minnesota team did not offer much of a challenge, but watching those guys move the ball and execute....wow. I remember Vito Brown looking clumsy and awkward early in his career, now he is hitting 3's and hitting floaters in the lane. Nigel Hayes has looked the part since he arrived, but his game and leadership skills have evolved dramatically. Bronson Koenig is a really good player....did not realize he had offers from WI, Duke, UNC, and Virginia. Add Happ, Iverson with his 40 inch vertical and Davis ( I think) and they have a team that could make a run IMO.

Is Madison that much more attractive than Iowa City? I thought they would struggle big time after losing those guys and then to lose Ryan unexpectedly... 7 in a row we have lost to them.

Thoughts on why WI's program is 10x better than Iowa's?

1. Im confident that there is no chance you are correct on this. Id take Iowa to win 7 out of 10 on a neutral this year.

2. It is actually a pretty cool place.

Wisconsin didn't just go from nothing to good. They were already rolling when Bo took over, Bennet had just been to a couple FF if I remember correctly.

Iowa has gotten better every year under Fran but he has a long way to go compared to the Bennet/Bo combo from a time perspective.

The overwhelming majority of minutes on this team are still coming from guys who were recruited right after Lick. It hasn't been that long yet.

Yes its extremely annoying to lose to Wisconsin when we are clearly more talented but be patient. The athleticism is getting significantly upgraded over the next couple years. Allot of the late game struggles (choking) are going to graduate this year IMO.

 

[sanjosebill]

Wisky has a better program than Iowa right now in most, in not all, respects. (I don't know anything about Wisky facilities, but the Kohl Center seems pretty cool). Better fan and student support, better "recent" tradition, better national rep, better "recent" coaching. About the only thing bad about the program was that the played boring basketball until last year. Now their tempo is fine.

An independent observer will likely pick Madison over IC, but both are nice cities.

I hope that Fran observes what Wisky does because it's very impressive.

Here's the thing - Wisky players get BETTER when the heat is on. It's like they all become assassins at the most important time of the game. Sure, they're going to get beat by superior talent (see Duke 2015), but not always (see KY 2015). But when evenly matched they seem to win about 90% of the time. That's good coaching, strong development and smart player selection.

But, except for all that, I hate Wisconsin!

Recent as in the last 2 decades recent?

Wisconsin has gone to 3 Final Fours since 2000 and they look to be stacked next year.

 

[Hawk_4shur]

Recent as in the last 2 decades recent?

Wisconsin has gone to 3 Final Fours since 2000 and they look to be stacked next year.

Exactly. I didn't want my comment attributed to 40 or 50 years ago.

 

[srams21]

1. Im confident that there is no chance you are correct on this. Id take Iowa to win 7 out of 10 on a neutral this year.

2. It is actually a pretty cool place.

Wisconsin didn't just go from nothing to good. They were already rolling when Bo took over, Bennet had just been to a couple FF if I remember correctly.

Iowa has gotten better every year under Fran but he has a long way to go compared to the Bennet/Bo combo from a time perspective.

The overwhelming majority of minutes on this team are still coming from guys who were recruited right after Lick. It hasn't been that long yet.

Yes its extremely annoying to lose to Wisconsin when we are clearly more talented but be patient. The athleticism is getting significantly upgraded over the next couple years. Allot of the late game struggles (choking) are going to graduate this year IMO.

Just a slight correction. Bennett had been to one final four ... as an 8 seed that finished .500 in conference play that year. Bennett was a decent coach but his tenure in Madison wasn't as successful as some think it was. He was 37-43 in BIG play during his stretch. Bo really did build that program.

 

[RocknRollface]

Just a slight correction. Bennett had been to one final four ... as an 8 seed that finished .500 in conference play that year. Bennett was a decent coach but his tenure in Madison wasn't as successful as some think it was. He was 37-43 in BIG play during his stretch. Bo really did build that program.

I didn't look it up.

Didn't he come close the year before or after that ff appearance?

Goes to show what you do in the tourney is really all people remember.

 

[jwardelt]

They weren't close besides the final four year.

 

[srams21]

I didn't look it up.

Didn't he come close the year before or after that ff appearance?

Goes to show what you do in the tourney is really all people remember.

This is exactly true. The team Bennett took to the final four was mediocre in every sense of the word.

They finished the regular season with a 16-12 (8-8) record before making their tournament run.

Their leading scorer was Mark Vershaw at 11 ppg. I had to look up who their guards were - Ray Boone (6 ppg) and Jon Bryant (7ppg) and Mike Kelley (5ppg). I literally do not remember those 3 players at all.

With all due respect to Bucky, it was truly a fluke run if I have ever seen one.

 

[neidog]

Bo Ryan was amazing...he annoyed the crap out of me but looking at his record objectively-AMAZING. What he did in Division III at Platteville and then at Madison-he made at least the sweet 16 half of his 14 years in Madison

 

[jwardelt]

This is exactly true. The team Bennett took to the final four was mediocre in every sense of the word.

They finished the regular season with a 16-12 (8-8) record before making their tournament run.

Their leading scorer was Mark Vershaw at 11 ppg. I had to look up who their guards were - Ray Boone (6 ppg) and Jon Bryant (7ppg) and Mike Kelley (5ppg). I literally do not remember those 3 players at all.

With all due respect to Bucky, it was truly a fluke run if I have ever seen one.

Do you think we care? I'm sure Iowa fans wouldn't care if they made a fluke run this year.

 

[srams21]

Do you think we care? I'm sure Iowa fans wouldn't care if they made a fluke run this year.

If you would follow the posts before it, you might understand why I wrote that.

My point is that Bo Ryan did not simply inherit a great program or a a well oiled machine and simply maintain it. He took over a mediocre program and built it up in into a machine. Hence, why I pointed out that despite a final four (yes of course I would take it), that Bennett does not compare to Bo.

 

[jwardelt]

No he doesn't compare but Bennett helped lay the foundation, getting to the tourney in consecutive years was huge in and of itself. Bo took it to another level though.

 

[Chewback]

If you would follow the posts before it, you might understand why I wrote that.

My point is that Bo Ryan did not simply inherit a great program or a a well oiled machine and simply maintain it. He took over a mediocre program and built it up in into a machine. Hence, why I pointed out that despite a final four (yes of course I would take it), that Bennett does not compare to Bo.

I would argue that he inherited a program that was far better than mediocre, unlike Fran who inherited a dumpster fire.